Evil Genius

Eldo wrote:

War Machine wrote:Remember how Mozgus became an "angel"? I believe Griffith turned his knights into demons the same way, no behelit required. Also, the count Guts fights in the first 3 volumes does retain some human emotions even though he is an apostole (mostly the love for his daughter), so it isn't impossible for Griffith's knights to also feel some guilt from time to time.

For Griffith turning knights to apostles in the same way as Mozgus, possibly not. It doesn't seem to have anything to suggest that at the moment. All of Griffith's army are a gathering of apostles.

It's true that it doesn't say exactly how they were transformed into demons, but there is no mention of any of the knights ever having a Behelit. So Griffith must be converting them himself through yet unknown methods. I think he is responsible for that because Griffith was born from the "egg" that turned Mozgus into a demon, so Griffith must have some similar powers.

War Machine wrote:It's true that it doesn't say exactly how they were transformed into demons, but there is no mention of any of the knights ever having a Behelit. So Griffith must be converting them himself through yet unknown methods. I think he is responsible for that because Griffith was born from the "egg" that turned Mozgus into a demon, so Griffith must have some similar powers.

There is no basis that Griffith can and had convert demons as the egg apostle did. Griffith is a member of the god hand, the apostles' lord. All of them serve him and answer his call for arms, which is why they are in the Hawks right now. The Neo-Hawks are from apostles all across the lands who had not appeared in the main Berserk story. We know that Zodd is an apostle. We haven't seen his behelit either.

Also, from the last chapter, we can see that Griffith has a human army. If he could convert humans to demons by touch, why didn't he do it to them? Mule is another human member of the Hawks, and there doesn't seem to be any transformation that happened to him.

It's an interesting theory, but nothing points to verify it. There is no evidence supporting it at all, which makes it pure speculation.

Also, when the Kushan Emperor is trying to recruit Guts, he makes mention of the fact that pretty much every free Apostle in the world has joined with Griffith (and the rest are being used by the Emperor to make monsters, but that's another story). Given that, I see no reason at all to think that the monster portion of Griffith's army is anything other then a collection of Apostles.

It seems that making demons is not special in any way, the kushan were making them very easily. I do agree that most of Griffith's army is a gathering of apostoles, but considering how powerful Griffith is and how easy it is to make demons, he should be doing some himself; maybe just the Neo-Hawks alone. He wouldn't turn everyone into a demon because then no human would want to side with him.

But calm down, this is speculation. We have yet to see more of Mule and how he's been affected by Griffith.

War Machine wrote:It seems that making demons is not special in any way, the kushan were making them very easily. I do agree that most of Griffith's army is a gathering of apostoles, but considering how powerful Griffith is and how easy it is to make demons, he should be doing some himself; maybe just the Neo-Hawks alone. He wouldn't turn everyone into a demon because then no human would want to side with him.

I disagree. The demon making process isn't as simple as you think; pregnant women are plunged into the inside of some sort of apostles (which the Emperor hax0red and shaped them in this function), and their babies (I use that term loosely) are imbued with a demonic spirit. We have yet to see Griffith demonstrate these abilities. I do believe that there is a specific way to create those demons. As we have seen from the Kushan, I doubt that Griffith is willing to imbue any demonic spirit into anyone, if he indeed has such abilities. Don't forget, the demons are significantly weaker than apostles. I don't see why Griffith would use such abilities, and why he has to use them with the apostles army. The apostle army would be way larger if there was more demons, instead of his current numbers. He has sufficient resources and manpower right now, he's just putting on a show. Like I said, there is no evidence to suggest your theory. I personally doubt that he has the ability to create demonic creatures. He's not omnipotent. He's a member of the God Hand, and not a god, his abilities are not unlimited or can have every power imaginable.

War Machine wrote:But calm down, this is speculation. We have yet to see more of Mule and how he's been affected by Griffith.

If Mule was 'affected', then Schierke would have felt something about him when they first met. She has some sort of radar that senses evil and other demonic beings. But nope, she didn't sense it on Mule.

As for speculation, this is how we roll here. We need facts to back up our theories. This is more credible and more people tend to listen and build up discussion. We don't encourage speculation, any theories with no facts because everyone could write their own goddamn fan fiction here. If you don't have evidence, speculation tends to get shot down quickly here. Otherwise, post it in the stupid theories thread. Despite the name, anything goes down there.

The thing that bothers me about apostles is that do they possess free will, or not. I mean as far as I understood it (and please correct me if I am wrong here), one chooses to become an apostile (that is if one has a beheilt). You choose to sacrafice. But then again once being an apostle, is there any free will left? You do have to obey the g-dhand, and your life is structured based on being an apostle. Just wondering.

Personally I think they are merely tools, just as the g-dhand are.

Eldo wrote:

War Machine wrote:But calm down, this is speculation. We have yet to see more of Mule and how he's been affected by Griffith.

If Mule was 'affected', then Schierke would have felt something about him when they first met. She has some sort of radar that senses evil and other demonic beings. But nope, she didn't sense it on Mule.

As for speculation, this is how we roll here. We need facts to back up our theories. This is more credible and more people tend to listen and build up discussion. We don't encourage speculation, any theories with no facts because everyone could write their own goddamn fan fiction here. If you don't have evidence, speculation tends to get shot down quickly here. Otherwise, post it in the stupid theories thread. Despite the name, anything goes down there.

Affected as in he made on impact on him, not transformed him or anything. Plus, we haven't seen any of Griffith's powers other than the aura he seems to produce around him. Slan seems to be able to call out monsters out of nowhere, and Griffith is apparently immune to physical attacks; considering how extraordinary those powers are, some form of human transformation (through Griffith's will) isn't that far off the story.

If you don't agree, fine, that's why it's a forum. But I'm having a hard time understanding why you're being so strict over a topic that is based solely on opinion over the outcome of the story.

Facade19 wrote:The thing that bothers me about apostles is that do they possess free will, or not. I mean as far as I understood it (and please correct me if I am wrong here), one chooses to become an apostile (that is if one has a beheilt). You choose to sacrafice. But then again once being an apostle, is there any free will left? You do have to obey the g-dhand, and your life is structured based on being an apostle. Just wondering.

Personally I think they are merely tools, just as the g-dhand are.

Maybe the apostles have one rule only, and it just so happens the time just came for them to obey that rule.

I believe apostles do have free will. They choose to become an apostle and the God Hand grants their wish. Because the God Hand grants them this newfound life they are bound to obey them. In a way it's the apostles way of thanking the God hand, and on top of that are probably too scared to disobey them.

As for the apostles obeying Griffith in his army, I think they have chosen to be in it. Griffith called for apostles, and they came to his aid. As we have seen throughout Berserk, most apostles seek transformation to become stronger and more powerful. So it's in the nature of most apostles to fight and kill. Look at Zodd. He loves to fight, and wasn't created by Griffith. Instead he was draw to him in order to fight alongside him. The apostles in Griffith's army want to be there because they know they will be able to kill humans. I don't think they are necessarily "forced" to be there. They are just fulfilling their demonic desires and Griffith provides for them.

War Machine wrote:Affected as in he made on impact on him, not transformed him or anything. Plus, we haven't seen any of Griffith's powers other than the aura he seems to produce around him. Slan seems to be able to call out monsters out of nowhere, and Griffith is apparently immune to physical attacks; considering how extraordinary those powers are, some form of human transformation (through Griffith's will) isn't that far off the story.

Yes, but the extraordinary abilities that Griffith possess does not mean that he is capable of doing everything unspeakable. The reason that Slann was able to 'call out' monsters from nowhere is because the place where she materialised was in Qliphoth, the spirit realm, not because she is capable of willing it in every plane of existence, physical or spiritual. Although the God Hand are remarkable and extraordinary beings, they are still bounded by and have to obey certain laws and rules of existence. For example, Griffith could not transverse from the Vortex into the human world and remain there on his own, without a ritual (an eclipse-like event) and a human body (from Casca and Guts' baby).

Yes, you have extrapolated from Griffith's abilities, but it seems like a pretty far stretch. Your logic is saying that, because of the apparent nature of the God Hand, they are capable of doing everything and anything. That is not the case it seems, while they can defy the laws of physics, they are bounded by the laws of the universe. That is like saying, if McGuyver could defuse a nuclear bomb with a paper clip, then he could transmute lead into gold. I am not saying your theory is impossible, but it seems that it is improbable based on current evidence.

War Machine wrote:If you don't agree, fine, that's why it's a forum. But I'm having a hard time understanding why you're being so strict over a topic that is based solely on opinion over the outcome of the story.

This is how we roll, you present a theory, you back it up with facts, we agree or disagree, and we discuss it, exchanging theories and facts. We don't try to encourage pure speculation because we don't want to read fan fics (unless, it is in the appropriate thread). This isn't Narutofans, this is the EG forums. That is how we act here, if you still don't understand or don't like the way it runs, feel free to leave. I don't plan to change how I act, nor will the forum change the way it behaves.

Actually War Machine, I must say I'm impressed lately at the influx of new people in to the forums asking intelligent questions and actually typing complete sentences. It does raise the quality of the forums, which is what we strive for.

I have to give you kudos because Eldo rarely types like this in response to anything, so he takes what you have to say seriously enough to not outright deride it.

I say continue on! This is good stuff, not everyone is going to agree but we at least can get as many sides as possible without being overtly hostile. ^_^

The thing that bothers me about apostles is that do they possess free will, or not. I mean as far as I understood it (and please correct me if I am wrong here), one chooses to become an apostile (that is if one has a beheilt). You choose to sacrafice. But then again once being an apostle, is there any free will left? You do have to obey the g-dhand, and your life is structured based on being an apostle. Just wondering.

Personally I think they are merely tools, just as the g-dhand are.

To answer if they have free will, the answer is yes. It is explicitly stated (both for Griffith and Wyald) that the only order Apostles or God's Hand are given, is "do as you will". That's it. Do whatever you want to do. Now it can be argued (and I do) that, given the nature of Idea it is able to perfectly predict everything that they'll do, and that's part of why it chose them as Apostles, because it knew how they'd act, but that's not the same as saying they have no free will. If they're tools of Idea (and I admit, they are in most ways) it's only because the way that they choose to act is a way that furthers Idea's purpose.

Because the God Hand grants them this newfound life they are bound to obey them. In a way it's the apostles way of thanking the God hand, and on top of that are probably too scared to disobey them.

Sorry, wrong. They can choose to obey or not. This is shown in both Wyald (who openly states that the only order they're given is to do what they want, so he can choose to kill Griffith if he wants) and the Emperor. The reason that most choose to serve is because basically, it feels good to. It's been stated several times how Apostles love just being in the presence of Griffith, and for the most recent example just reread the last couple of chapters, where Griffith confronts the Emperor. What he's feeling is what all Apostles feel, but because of his personality and pride, he chooses to resist it, to the best of his ability. Even for him, it's extremely difficult to resist.

As for the apostles obeying Griffith in his army, I think they have chosen to be in it. Griffith called for apostles, and they came to his aid. As we have seen throughout Berserk, most apostles seek transformation to become stronger and more powerful. So it's in the nature of most apostles to fight and kill. Look at Zodd. He loves to fight, and wasn't created by Griffith. Instead he was draw to him in order to fight alongside him. The apostles in Griffith's army want to be there because they know they will be able to kill humans. I don't think they are necessarily "forced" to be there. They are just fulfilling their demonic desires and Griffith provides for them.

It'd probably be more accurate to say that they were drawn to his service, almost like moths to flame (although maybe with less fatal consequences. They could fight and kill anywhere, they don't need Griffith for that. Rather, they simply wish to be in his presence, because of his God's Hand aura.

Eldo wrote:

War Machine wrote:If you don't agree, fine, that's why it's a forum. But I'm having a hard time understanding why you're being so strict over a topic that is based solely on opinion over the outcome of the story.

This is how we roll, you present a theory, you back it up with facts, we agree or disagree, and we discuss it, exchanging theories and facts. We don't try to encourage pure speculation because we don't want to read fan fics (unless, it is in the appropriate thread). This isn't Narutofans, this is the EG forums. That is how we act here, if you still don't understand or don't like the way it runs, feel free to leave. I don't plan to change how I act, nor will the forum change the way it behaves.

I didn't pull this out of my ass from pure speculation, I already showed you several reasons why I think that would be possible. But you do have me at a stalemate, there isn't much else I can say until we see more of Griffith.

Istvan wrote:It'd probably be more accurate to say that they were drawn to his service, almost like moths to flame (although maybe with less fatal consequences. They could fight and kill anywhere, they don't need Griffith for that. Rather, they simply wish to be in his presence, because of his God's Hand aura.

Them having free will is very possible in the sense that they could still follow Griffith for a number of reasons (free food, more power, killing humans, etcetera). A great number of them are like animals so if you promise them any of their basic needs they'll follow you easily, the weird thing is how he actually convinces the smart ones. We see how Mule is almost drawn to Griffith without him saying a word to him about it (sexuality maybe? He he he!) so the Neo-Hawks could've been drawn in the same fashion.

Another way of seeing it is how powerful Griffith is, he got Zodd on his knees without being physically in front of him. If the God Hand gave each and every one of the apostles their powers then they must acknowledge that anyone from the God Hand is several times more powerful than them. They can't beat Griffith, so they side with him.

I don't think there's only one reason for all those monsters wanting to side with him.

There is one MAJOR over-arching link, causality. Idea manipulates everything in such a way to make one outcome inevitable in face of multiple choices aka 'free will'.

Even though all these apostles have different reasons for joining Femto, there is however an explanation for all the reasons and that is Idea's manipulation to field Femto's army.

With Zodd's recent actions though, he has been affected by Guts... but it remains to be seen if it was part of Idea's machinations or not.

Istvan wrote:To answer if they have free will, the answer is yes. It is explicitly stated (both for Griffith and Wyald) that the only order Apostles or God's Hand are given, is "do as you will". That's it. Do whatever you want to do. Now it can be argued (and I do) that, given the nature of Idea it is able to perfectly predict everything that they'll do, and that's part of why it chose them as Apostles, because it knew how they'd act, but that's not the same as saying they have no free will. If they're tools of Idea (and I admit, they are in most ways) it's only because the way that they choose to act is a way that furthers Idea's purpose.

I kind of agree with you. While they do have some extent of free will, the consequences of their actions ultimately lead up to as Idea intended. I guess in a way, if they were fated to create havoc and chaos (in their nature as apostles), they can choose in what way and how they spread their chaos. Damn, psi beat me to it. But yeah, what he said.

Istvan wrote:They can choose to obey or not. This is shown in both Wyald (who openly states that the only order they're given is to do what they want, so he can choose to kill Griffith if he wants) and the Emperor. The reason that most choose to serve is because basically, it feels good to. It's been stated several times how Apostles love just being in the presence of Griffith, and for the most recent example just reread the last couple of chapters, where Griffith confronts the Emperor. What he's feeling is what all Apostles feel, but because of his personality and pride, he chooses to resist it, to the best of his ability. Even for him, it's extremely difficult to resist.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. I think this point does show that it is in the nature of the apostles to serve the God Hand.

War Machine wrote:Them having free will is very possible in the sense that they could still follow Griffith for a number of reasons (free food, more power, killing humans, etcetera). A great number of them are like animals so if you promise them any of their basic needs they'll follow you easily, the weird thing is how he actually convinces the smart ones. We see how Mule is almost drawn to Griffith without him saying a word to him about it (sexuality maybe? He he he!) so the Neo-Hawks could've been drawn in the same fashion.

Hm, I think they have the free will to attempt to resist, but ultimately, their fates are settled, and the result is inevitable. This example is seen with Zodd, who refuses to serve anyone who is weaker than him, challenging Griffith in a fight, and ultimately serving him in the end. I believe that it is their fate to fight alongside Griffith, as Idea had planned. Griffith has the magnetic presence that draws people to him, so they will heed his commands. Even before his transformation to Femto, he was attracting people to fight for him and die for his dream, so I wasn't surprised when Mule joined up.

Because the God Hand grants them this newfound life they are bound to obey them. In a way it's the apostles way of thanking the God hand, and on top of that are probably too scared to disobey them.

Sorry, wrong. They can choose to obey or not. This is shown in both Wyald (who openly states that the only order they're given is to do what they want, so he can choose to kill Griffith if he wants) and the Emperor. The reason that most choose to serve is because basically, it feels good to. It's been stated several times how Apostles love just being in the presence of Griffith, and for the most recent example just reread the last couple of chapters, where Griffith confronts the Emperor. What he's feeling is what all Apostles feel, but because of his personality and pride, he chooses to resist it, to the best of his ability. Even for him, it's extremely difficult to resist.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I didn't imply that apostles were bound to obey the God Hand like they were mindless drones. Why else would I have originally commented? I meant more along the lines that the apostles obey the God Hand out of fear. Most are too afraid to not obey them. Though like you said there are many exceptions. Such as Wyald and Zodd.

I do believe that apostles are drawn to Griffith like moths to a flame, but not just because it "feels good." Most apostles will have their own reason for being drawn to Griffith. Some because they want to share in Griffith's glory. Others because they want to learn from him so someday they can be as powerful. Yet others because they want someday overthrow him and take what he has. Evil has many faces, and as I said every apostle has their own reason for joining with Griffith. To say they all follow Griffith simply because "it feels good," is wrong and always will be.

"Feels good" was, perhaps, an oversimplification on my part, but I stand by the basic sentiment. I think you are way overestimating the degree of pragmaticism most of the Apostles had when they joined up. They are, quite literally, drawn to Griffith, like the most powerful of religious expierences. Take a look way back at what the knight who confronted the Emperor and asked why he didn't serve Griffith (this was during the rescue of Princess Charlott) said, and the thoughts of the Emperor when he's confronting Griffith directly in the last couple of chapters. Ultimately, I think those two themes pretty much sum up why most Apostles follow Griffith.

As to the idea that they might be trying to get "as powerful" as him, I really doubt it. Why on earth should they think that by studying Griffith they can somehow gain the powers of a God's Hand?

I think a good analogy can be made with God and Angels. They're drawn towards God, but they don't want anything else then his presence. It's confortable.

Of course, they're evil, so other reasons may appear...

Another problem with that analogy is that apparently large numbers of angels were willing to abandon God and follow Lucifer, whereas the Kushan Emperor is, as far as we know, the only Apostle who's willing to work against Griffith. Other then that, I think it's a good analogy, I like it.

Hmmm... this thread is rapidly spiraling towards the realm of "Stupid Theories"... I must be ready to catch it when it lands...

Honour is not an objective thing, for some they might just want to be able to beat people in fair circumstances, others might be protecting women and children etc

its also possible that one of the knights/apostles had to for example sacrifice someone dear in the name of honour. As for if they are apostles, they all seem to want something, like the kushan dude who says he wants griffith's head although theres no proof he is an apostle yet. (ill try and not be a 1 off poster that makes a bunch of overthought assumptions)

its also possible that one of the knights/apostles had to for example sacrifice someone dear in the name of honour.

Nope, sorry. The manga is pretty clear, the time the God's Hand appear to allow you to make the sacrifice is the moment that your dream (whatever it is) has totally collapsed, and they offer to let you regain it. Basically, the choice to make the sacrifice is always a selfish one.

Nope, sorry. The manga is pretty clear, the time the God's Hand appear to allow you to make the sacrifice is the moment that your dream (whatever it is) has totally collapsed, and they offer to let you regain it. Basically, the choice to make the sacrifice is always a selfish one.

its not always to regain it, like the baron for example.

a very simple reason it could be is like one of them has the dream of them and their brother becoming the best knights, then he finds his brother in bed with his wife/taking bribes from enemy/etc.

its not always to regain it, like the baron for example.

I think you are just mistaking what the Baron's dream was. His dream was basically to go around persecuiting any and all heretics while his loving family waited safely at home for him. That's what the God's Hand allowed him to regain in exchange for his wife. The dream may have to be adjusted a little (for the elf girl, she had to create her own elves, for example) but what they offer is to give you the ability to regain your lost dream in exchange for the sacrifice of your loved ones. It is always, intrinsically, a selfish process.