Evil Genius

halfnhalf wrote:High quality footage of SF4


http://japan.gamespot.com/arcade/videos ... 440,00.htm

So that's what a next generation 2-D fighter looks like. Looks awesome actually.

I would kill for one of those gaming machines. What resolution do you think those screens are running at?

BTW....they really could have done better with that new female design.

When is the game coming out?

http://au.media.ps3.ign.com/media/142/1 ... ids_1.html

I just watched the Ryu vs Abel video. Looks like slightly slowed down Street Fighter III gameplay to me. Dashes, parries, throw parries (which even have the same sound and hit spark), and that thing I haven't quite figured out how to do yet where you do a regular special move but faster and you flash yellow at the same time (hey, I like Street Fighter 3 but I never had anyone to play it against, hence I never got any good at it...).

I'd like it if the gameplay was sped up just a little... any slower and I'd swear it was just another EX.

Ono said they got rid of parrying, and I didn't see anything that looked like it in the Ryu vs Abel vid. The things I could definitely tell was in there was: Rolling, Dashing, Tech Throws (Or Throw Parrying as Mike referred to it), and EX (The yellow flashy thingy ).

FYI Mike, to do an EX version of a move in SF3 (And I can only assume in SF4 as well), you hit two buttons simultaneously when entering in a move (like QCF+ HP and MP instead of just one or the other to do an EX Fireball for Ryu). EX moves usually have more hits than their regular counterparts, and different juggle or combo properties (For instance, after Urien's d+HP you can do an EX Dangerous Headbutt into a whole plethora of comboes, while a normal headbutt doesn't combo or juggle). Be warned, EX moves take a portion of your super bar though. Depending on the character, their EX version can also change the move itself, like Ryu's Hurricane kick. His normal version travels across the screen depending on the button you press, but the EX version (you can see it in the video) stops him dead where ever he is and does a ton of spins. This is different than Ken's EX Hurricane which just does a Hurricane kick that is faster and travels farther than his normal. Also note that in SF3, Gill and Akuma do not have EX moves.

After watching that video, the super system still confuses me. Does your revenge bar do super combos, or is it the "Super" bar on the bottom? I thought the revenge bar was only for making your moves unblockable. I don't quite understand it, but I think once people start getting it down it will be quite interesting to play and watch matches.

I'm sure I saw some parries in there. At one point Abel tries to grab Ryu for a throw and you hear this distinctive parrying noise as well as see the circular shockwave hitspark.

EDIT: It's called tech throws? I'm sure in SF3 I pulled that off just the same way as parrying, but I could be wrong. Hmm... I'll look into this more.

Parries are officially out, according to Capcom. I believe it was one of the first announcements made about the game.

Anyway, that Ryu vs Abel fight looked fun enough. Not as fast as SF3, but the controls and movement certainly look tight enough- which is pretty important. It's good to see they're resisting the temptation of throwing in (limited) z-axis movement as a gimmick.

MadDogMike wrote:I'm sure I saw some parries in there. At one point Abel tries to grab Ryu for a throw and you hear this distinctive parrying noise as well as see the circular shockwave hitspark.

THAT was the tech throw. You can't parry a throw, so the only way to counter it is to input a throw yourself, and if done at the same time they cancel out, which is what makes the hitspark. The noise for a parry and a tech throw are quite different, as well as with a parry (in sf3 at least) there is no hit spark, the character flashes blue (Think like an EX move only they do it once)

I couldn't tell if rolling is part of the system or just one of Abel's moves. Since 3 of the 4 vds had him and I didn't see anyone else use it, I can't be 100% sure.

You're right about the blue flash, I forgot about that.

LordMune wrote:Parries are officially out, according to Capcom. I believe it was one of the first announcements made about the game.

Anyway, that Ryu vs Abel fight looked fun enough. Not as fast as SF3, but the controls and movement certainly look tight enough- which is pretty important. It's good to see they're resisting the temptation of throwing in (limited) z-axis movement as a gimmick.

Sorry for being a noob, but what is the difference between a parry and a block in how it applies to this game?

anyone notice in the abel vs. ryu match at 0:53 ryu does a jumping hurricane kick, and during that abel is able to grab him out of mid-air into a throw.

Destructiod had some hands-on time with the game and they said that the hit detection is a little wonky, which is a little disappointing.

Femto wrote:Destructiod had some hands-on time with the game and they said that the hit detection is a little wonky, which is a little disappointing.

but that is what this whole testing phase in japan should be for right?

They haven't even announced when they plan to release the game, so they pretty much have all the time they need to fix it up.

The Prince wrote:

LordMune wrote:Parries are officially out, according to Capcom. I believe it was one of the first announcements made about the game.

Anyway, that Ryu vs Abel fight looked fun enough. Not as fast as SF3, but the controls and movement certainly look tight enough- which is pretty important. It's good to see they're resisting the temptation of throwing in (limited) z-axis movement as a gimmick.

Sorry for being a noob, but what is the difference between a parry and a block in how it applies to this game?

In all SF games you block by holding backwards, but in SF3 if you tap forwards at the exact moment that an attack connects with you, you will parry it instead and may quickly counter-attack if their move has left them open. In addition, special or super moves that would have caused some damage through your block won't cause any damage at all if they are parried.

See the youtube video of Chun-Li vs Ken earlier in this thread to see how parrying can be useful if you get good enough at it.

halfnhalf wrote:

Femto wrote:Destructiod had some hands-on time with the game and they said that the hit detection is a little wonky, which is a little disappointing.

but that is what this whole testing phase in japan should be for right?

Well, the real issue is the difference between a 2D engine and a 3D engine.

As I understand it, collision in a 2D game is based on hitboxes while a 3D game is based on physics engines.

It really changes the dynamics of a game and Ono mentioned something about having trouble with collisions because of the game being in 3D.

That's one of the bigger reasons why more serious players prefer 2D over 3D in fighting games.

A lot of 3D games use hitboxes too. Physics engines only come into play when they want to make the character's animation reflect where they've been hit.

3D hitbox <> 2D hitbox

Cube <> square

Are you a programmer? It equates to almost exactly the same calculations either way. It's also possible to use 2D hitboxes in a 3D game when gameplay only occurs on 2 axes, you just disregard testing the location of the objects on the third axis.

MadDogMike wrote:Are you a programmer? It equates to almost exactly the same calculations either way. It's also possible to use 2D hitboxes in a 3D game when gameplay only occurs on 2 axes, you just disregard testing the location of the objects on the third axis.

This guy knows his shit.

http://www.gamespot.com/arcade/action/s ... bj=6186544




character exhibition

MadDogMike wrote:Are you a programmer? It equates to almost exactly the same calculations either way. It's also possible to use 2D hitboxes in a 3D game when gameplay only occurs on 2 axes, you just disregard testing the location of the objects on the third axis.

I don't think it's that simple, buddy.

Unless the developers go out of their way to program a 2D game on top of a 3D engine (and having to deal with the can of worms that would open) then what you're saying just isn't going to happen.

You can't just "disregard" the z-axis because of the very fact that it is a 3D game.

Combat might be limited to 2 axes but the game is still 3D, there is depth and limbs or arcs that move closer to the foreground or background in the z-axis and all that will undoubtedly change the game whether you want to admit it or not.

The reason why so many people are opposed to a 3D Street Fighter game isn't an aesthetical one, it's because it absolutely changes the game.

Fact of the matter is, and like I mentioned earlier, Ono himself said he was having trouble getting collision to feel like that in a 2D game.

I think that alone settles this.

Also, the game is set to be released in the arcades this July so yeah.

I've got a Bachelor of Computer Science degree, and I majored in Software Development. I have some understanding of how these things work.

This is a VERY simple 3D game engine compared to current standards, why would they go to the trouble of coding advanced collision detection algorithms to determine if an attack hits when they can just do something like "player A kicks, if player B is within X range in front of player A they get hit". In fact, if Capcom wanted they could almost keep their entire 2D gameplay code intact and just replace the graphical engine code, still using 2D hitboxes.

Yes, you can completely disregard the third axis in a 3D game of this nature, simulating 2D hitboxes.

If Capcom is having trouble with collision detection, it's probably just because the Street Fighter development team don't have much experience with 3D fighting game engines. They've stuck to 2D for over 10 years, with the exception of Street Fighter EX games (which I'm sure they got a different team to develop).



By the way, even 2D PC games these days are rendered using Direct3D. Sprites are just 4 sided flat polygons with a sprite texture painted on them. In fact 3D graphics aren't even really 3D, they're 2D vector graphics which simulate 3D. Sprites are actually flat rectangular polygons with sprite textures, and even though it's a 3D game they still use 2D hitboxes.

EDIT: Actually, I just thought of the perfect example: Marvel vs Capcom 2 (as well as any other 2D fighting game with 3D backgrounds). They kept most of their 2D gameplay code and just replaced the graphical engine with a 3D one.

MadDogMike wrote:I've got a Bachelor of Computer Science degree, and I majored in Software Development. I have some understanding of how these things work.

This is a VERY simple 3D game engine compared to current standards, why would they go to the trouble of coding advanced collision detection algorithms to determine if an attack hits when they can just do something like "player A kicks, if player B is within X range in front of player A they get hit". In fact, if Capcom wanted they could almost keep their entire 2D gameplay code intact and just replace the graphical engine code, still using 2D hitboxes.

Yes, you can completely disregard the third axis in a 3D game of this nature, simulating 2D hitboxes.

If Capcom is having trouble with collision detection, it's probably just because the Street Fighter development team don't have much experience with 3D fighting game engines. They've stuck to 2D for over 10 years, with the exception of Street Fighter EX games (which I'm sure they got a different team to develop).



By the way, even 2D PC games these days are rendered using Direct3D. Sprites are just 4 sided flat polygons with a sprite texture painted on them. In fact 3D graphics aren't even really 3D, they're 2D vector graphics which simulate 3D. Sprites are actually flat rectangular polygons with sprite textures, and even though it's a 3D game they still use 2D hitboxes.

EDIT: Actually, I just thought of the perfect example: Marvel vs Capcom 2 (as well as any other 2D fighting game with 3D backgrounds). They kept most of their 2D gameplay code and just replaced the graphical engine with a 3D one.

Apparently Femto may be in over his head with this guy.

MadDogMike,

You can wave your degree at me and talk rhetorical all you want but the fact of the matter is that a member of a well-respected video game blog said that hit detection in the game was wonky and the producer of the game himself said that the development team had some trouble getting collisions to feel like those of a 2D game.

The fact that you're implying that you can do a better job at coding a Street Fighter engine than the fine folks at Capcom is just absolutely pretentious and completely absurd.

I may not have the jargon needed to talk about the technical aspects of this issue extensively (and I may have gotten ahead of myself on that one) but I've invested in fighting games far more than you have, apparently, and I can indubitably say that a 3D fighting game is inherently different than a 2D one in both play and feel mostly, but not exclusively, because of the hit detection.

Thank you for your time.

EDIT: Marvel vs. Capcom 2 is a horrible example because the game is 2D.

Marvel VS Capcom 2 is an excellent example. The game is 3D.

I never once implied that I could make a better game than Capcom, I just suggested that maybe their development team is having trouble with hit detection because they don't have much experience with creating 3D fighting games.

I'm not "waving around my degree", I just wanted you to know that I'm not talking out of my arse.

MadDogMike wrote:Marvel VS Capcom is an excellent example. The game is 3D.

Hahahahaha.