Newbie Berserk Discussion Thread

[Istvan]

I'm trying to picture Guts as the champion/warrior of the "light" emotions, especially love...and failing miserably. The fact that the extreme hatred he feels was caused by his once loving people does not mean that his current condition is love-based.

[Seraph]

In essence Guts fights out of love for his comrades and for Caska, while Griffith fights for his personal gain. According to my previous post, this quality is what defines humanity. Could it be as simple as love, though? If you look at what Idea says, it can be inferred. Idea was created by mankind looking for a reason for bad things happening--essentially hate. Since Guts is fighting the minions of the Idea, he has to be a champion of the direct opposite of Idea: a champion of the "light" emotions, the penultimate one being love.

nope,guts is not fighting for love he is fighting out of pure hate it been said may times in the manga,their is nothing about guts that say light emotion,guts emotion is black,berserk,like hot lava driven by pure revenge.

[The Prince]

In essence Guts fights out of love for his comrades and for Caska, while Griffith fights for his personal gain. According to my previous post, this quality is what defines humanity. Could it be as simple as love, though? If you look at what Idea says, it can be inferred. Idea was created by mankind looking for a reason for bad things happening--essentially hate. Since Guts is fighting the minions of the Idea, he has to be a champion of the direct opposite of Idea: a champion of the "light" emotions, the penultimate one being love.

nope,guts is not fighting for love he is fighting out of pure hate it been said may times in the manga,their is nothing about guts that say light emotion,guts emotion is black,berserk,like hot lava driven by pure revenge.

I think your comments are actually rather shallow, and are somewhat of a disservice to Miura and the extent of his characterization of Guts. I would tend to agree more with Istvan's take on the matter.

I might agree somewhat with you, in that from the moment Gut's set out from Godo's w/ DS in hand, Gut's journey has always been one of revenge against the one responsible for shattering his world by the ultimate act of betrayal. At the start we saw someone willing to shed their humanity on their way to becoming akin,in many ways, to those apostles/monsters he sought revemge out on taking on the mantle of the "Blackswordsmen".

But in respect to subject of love, its not quite so absurd to dismiss the role "love" may play out over the course of Guts' journey. Maybe not quite the same as love, but the concept of loyalty certainly played a major role in fueling the extreme nature of Guts' obsession over revenge. First how 'loyalty' given towards Griffith by Guts and the Hawks was ultimately betrayed (like some backwardass version of Chushingura), and how 'loyalty' toward his fallen comrades serve to empower his thirst for vengeance. Such were issues addressed in the interaction btw Griifith and Guts at the Hill of Swords.

Most importantly it has been Guts' love for Caska, that has lead Guts to rethink his quest for revenge on several occassions. Even going so far as seriously considering giving his quest up entirely, in an exchange for living a quiet existence with Caska from the safety of Godo's cave. Also recall how the SK telling Gut's how in time he'd be presented with the choice of fighting (seeking vengeance) or protecting his loved ones......As that he couldn't do both. Brought up during their encounter on the way to Albion.

[Aetherfukz]

Well yeah, Guts as a true fighter for love doesn't quite fit. But still he does not _only_ fight for revenge. Not anymore. It was so the two years when he first became the black swordsman, but now Guts is more than just a revenge machine. Sure revenge still drives him, but there is more to it. First, remember when he wanted to charge headlong into battle (I think with Zodd or Griffith it was) and while charging he hears Caska cry out, and he stops charging. That is not the action of a purely revenge driven character who doesn't give a shit about anything else.

Especially now that Guts has a party again he developed as a character. He started to care (again) for the people around him.

And while Guts is not a true fighter for light, when compared to Griffith, he is all about emotions. Griffith doesn't care about anything but his dream. Guts cares for a few good things, and for his revenge.

[dialdfordesi]

Yeah, no more making posts about serious discussion after drinking and being tired.
I see that Guts is not a shining champion of love, and his strength does come from his hate. However, it is love that allows Guts to retain his humanity. This can be shown by the berserker armor. When he uses the armor,the armor induces violent emotions into Guts, making him a being of pure hatred. This gives him the increased strength and immunity to pain, and it is also why the wolf manifests itself. The manifestation of the wolf symbolizes that Guts has become the analog of a demon. I was wrong when I said that Guts fought in the name of love (I was also sounding pretty cheesy too, huh?), but the armor shows that without love, Guts is the same as the demons. There are various instances before Guts had the berserker's armor in which he has either stopped killing because humans got in the way or has killed to save others (more of the latter), so he does retain compassion and love, albeit in a different way. Maybe retaining those feelings is enough to differ Guts from any demon in the world of Berserk.

[Istvan]

I'm not sure that love is really the correct word for what you're describing, dialdfordesi. Loyalty, friendship, caring, empathy (although only in certain respects, and of a very rough form), and so on all seem much better descriptors for what you're talking about. True, Guts does feel love, but it seems fairly well confined to Caska and, before the eclipse, (in a male-friendship sort of way) Griffith.

[Rolos]

I wouldnt say that Gutts love is confined to Caska and pre-eclipse Griffith, I mean, take a look at his relation with the newly formed Black Swordman band.
Of course, its not as strong as what he felt for Caska or pre-eclipse Griffith, but its still pretty strong. He looks after Shierke in an almost fatherly way, and the same goes for Isidro (this one its more like....pity). Farneze and Serpico......I am not sure about how to call what he seems to feel for those two.

Gutts may not fight for pure love, but he does fight for people. He fights for Caska, the original band of the hawk and now for "his" band. The fact that he hasnt given up his humanity to become a demon-like-hate-spawned creature proves that he cares for people.

I think that what really defines Gutts, more than just his drive to achieve vengeance, is how intense he is. Whatever he feels, its way more intense than whatever others may feel. That makes him unique, just like Griffith was. But, IMHO, the great diference is that what he do and feel makes him different, not what he wants to accomplish.

All the previous talking of this post is rather pointless and can be sumarized in:

Griffth = Cold-hearted bastard
Gutts = Hot-headed warrior that couldnt possibly be more *insert synonym of bad ass of your choice*


May the next release be composed of 203 pages of pure A grade berserk !!!

Lets pray for that....

[The Prince]

Guts' consumate compassion and loyalty towards Caska, despite her current condition and indifference to Guts is "above & beyond" IMO. With little hope of ever returning to the "Caska" Guts fell in love with, a lesser man would have kicked her to the side of the road long before.....

Caska's character after the eclipse has been nothing but dead-weight, and despite all the sacrifices made, and all the pain (physically/mentally) Guts has (continues) sustained on Caska's behalf, such deeds are met with indifference (and even hatred) by the one person he cares most for. In that sense, one could say that Guts has shown his love for Caska to be unconditional in nature. Almost anyone would attest that "unconditional love" represents love in its "purest form". But outside of a mother and her child, such is rarity among humans. Ironically it is this "unconditional love" that has been the instrumental driving force for Guts journey ever since he left Godo's with Caska.

As with their current journey, reaching their destination (Fairy-Land) is predicated toward restoring Caska's mind. All the while, Guts is willing suppress his inner-rage and put his vengeance upon Griffith on hold for Caska's sake.

*This scene better than any I can recall, portrays the extent of Guts' dedication and self-sacrifice in the name of his love for Caska. One could conclude from this scene that he cares more for Caska than himself. And in this point of the story, Guts is more concerned about fighting to protect Caska, fighting for his own life knowing that the life of another depends on it, than carrying out his revenge on Griffith.

I wouldnt say that Gutts love is confined to Caska and pre-eclipse Griffith, I mean, take a look at his relation with the newly formed Black Swordman band.
Of course, its not as strong as what he felt for Caska or pre-eclipse Griffith, but its still pretty strong. He looks after Shierke in an almost fatherly way, and the same goes for Isidro (this one its more like....pity). Farneze and Serpico......I am not sure about how to call what he seems to feel for those two.

Gutts may not fight for pure love, but he does fight for people. He fights for Caska, the original band of the hawk and now for "his" band. The fact that he hasnt given up his humanity to become a demon-like-hate-spawned creature proves that he cares for people.

I think that what really defines Gutts, more than just his drive to achieve vengeance, is how intense he is. Whatever he feels, its way more intense than whatever others may feel. That makes him unique, just like Griffith was. But, IMHO, the great diference is that what he do and feel makes him different, not what he wants to accomplish.

All the previous talking of this post is rather pointless and can be sumarized in:

Griffth = Cold-hearted bastard
Gutts = Hot-headed warrior that couldnt possibly be more *insert synonym of bad ass of your choice*


May the next release be composed of 203 pages of pure A grade berserk !!!

Lets pray for that....

Excellent Post! Summed things up perfectly.

May you live long and prosper.

[dialdfordesi]

I only say that he loves the people traveling with him in addition to Caska because of this page.
http://img149.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... opynd1.jpg
In addition to going to talk to Farnese when she decided to leave, this shows that Guts has at the very least a developing familial bond with the people that now accompany him.

[Israfel74]

Although it makes perfect intuitive sense that Guts could not make a sacrifice as he IS a sacrifice himself I can't remember where in the manga this is explicitly stated. I do, however, have in my BotH scanlation a line that seems to indicate that it IS possible for Guts to make a sacrifice. Slann (to Guts) - "You want to make a sacrifice? Like him?" I assume "him" means Griffith in that context. Some clarification would be nice.

[Eldo]

If memory serves me correctly, nearly the beginning of the volumes and Femto's first appearance in the manga (when the count summoned him), Guts tried to resist the God Hand, only to be owned by Femto. Slann comments about how willful Guts is, and if he could join them. Void replies no, he is not chosen by fate and that he has been marked. It seems that Slann hasn't read up on the rules and been on the books.

So either Slann has no idea what she's talking about, since she was corrected by Void, or that she was taunting Guts so she could feed on his anger.

[Istvan]

If memory serves me correctly, nearly the beginning of the volumes and Femto's first appearance in the manga (when the count summoned him), Guts tried to resist the God Hand, only to be owned by Femto. Slann comments about how willful Guts is, and if he could join them. Void replies no, he is not chosen by fate and that he has been marked. It seems that Slann hasn't read up on the rules and been on the books.

So either Slann has no idea what she's talking about, since she was corrected by Void, or that she was taunting Guts so she could feed on his anger.

My bet's on taunting. I'm pretty sure she was just trying to piss him off, especially since she herself earlier made a comment about him being a sacrifice, so unable to become an Apostle. During the eclipse, while watching Guts fight, Slann says she wants Guts to join them (as an Apostle, contextually), but that this is impossible because of his fate. Something like that, I can't look up the exact quote at the moment, but the implication was that she knew he couldn't become an Apostle, although she thought he'd make a great one.

[Rolos]

May be its just me, but I cant find the "branded people are unable to make a sacrifice" you are talking about.

This is the translation I have:



Also, Conrad is the one that says Guts cant join them (god-hand), not Void.

I agree with you that Void seems to be the boss, or at least the one that leads all the ceremonies in which God-Hand participates (eclipse, apostle appointments, etc..)

Pd: Man, I love Slaan......she is such a sadistic bitch ! And not only that, she also have wings!!!

[The Prince]

May be its just me, but I cant find the "branded people are unable to make a sacrifice" you are talking about.

This is the translation I have:



Also, Conrad is the one that says Guts cant join them (god-hand), not Void.

I agree with you that Void seems to be the boss, or at least the one that leads all the ceremonies in which God-Hand participates (eclipse, apostle appointments, etc..)

Pd: Man, I love Slaan......she is such a sadistic bitch ! And not only that, she also have wings!!!

Good work and effort with this post Rolos!

Recalling previous speculation of whether or not Guts may or even could use the behelit, the consensus opinion here seems to be that he can't. Basically referring to this exact exchange, where Slaan's desire for Guts to ascend among them, gets quickly shotdown by the other GH's who claim that it would not be possible due to Guts not being pre-ordained. People here also claim that at some point Void states that b/c of Guts being marked for sacrifice, prevented Guts from being able to use the behelit......Though I can't seem to find any such scene to back the claim up.

That said I still, am not completely convinced that Guts can not or won't use the behelit at some point in the story. (Imagines Istvan shaking his head in disgust )....

My argument for it......

[spoiler]First of all, there is definitely some unforeseen relevance toward Guts inability to separate himself from that behelit retrieved from the Count, as it appears their is somekind of kind of connection he shares to it.

Second, why would Slaan, go on to taunt Guts in the cave about using the behelit if she was truely convinced that Guts couldn't use it? Maybe it was a mere taunt with no relevance, but knowing Miura I have to believe there is a reason he went on to bring up the issue/possibiliy yet again in the storyline.

Third and most importantly, I wonder if Guts, not being bound by the "thread of fate", could possibly leave Conrad's conjecture irrelevant (see Rojo's picture)? Conrad may be working under the assumption that Guts, like 99.99999% of all other humans, was bound to a pre-ordained fate, where if Guts was destined to use the behelit, he would have had to foreseen it. But with Guts, not being bound, Conrad along with the rest of the GH are basically blinded to Guts ultimate fate, as his fate his presumably undetermined.

Thus Guts not being "pre-destined/pre-ordained" to use the behelit, does not mean that Guts won't. [/spoiler]

[Aetherfukz]

Well maybe Guts may be able to use a behelit. But that would imply that he had to sacrifice something. And what is dear to Guts? Caska. The memory of the Band of the Hawks. And to a lesser extent, his party.

I can't imagine Guts sacrificing anyone of his party, let alone Caska, to become a demon, so he could be able to fight (or, as was his dream once, stand besides him as an equal) Griffith. That would go against everything Guts stands for.

[War Machine]

I'm willing to bet on it, Guts won't ever use the Behelit himself; at least not in the normal way, by sacrifice (the abnormal way being how Skull Knight uses them).

[Eldo]

Good god, not this 'Guts will use the Behelit' crap again.

People here also claim that at some point Void states that b/c of Guts being marked for sacrifice, prevented Guts from being able to use the behelit......Though I can't seem to find any such scene to back the claim up.

Of course, I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of Berserk. Either way, it was stated by one of the God Hand that Guts specifically can't use the Behelit. Unless Slann is more knowledgeable and plays a more authoritative rule amongst the God Hand, I doubt it. Regardless, surely you could have read that part with Conrad anyway, if you were looking for it. Just because Conrad said it instead of Void doesn't make me any less wrong.

I agree that Guts will somehow be able to access the God Hand via the Behelit's power, but not by the normal rituals and rules that dictates it. It might be by someone else, and Guts is along for the ride. However, I strongly disagree that Guts would be able to activate it himself, via the fate mechanism or whatever. He would not be able to use it directly by himself.

I'll try to supply some points of the top of my head as to why it can't happen:

1) If Guts was to use the behelit and become an apostle, it would mean that he is under the control of the God Hand, as with Zodd and all the rest of them. Also, being an apostle would not make him as strong as a God Hand, so this path is moot. If we are to believe that Guts is to take down the God Hand, then this would not be the option he would take.

2) Skull Knight collects Behelits as well. Does that mean he's going to be an apostle? If being an apostle would mean defeating the God Hand, wouldn't Skull Knight have used it ages ago? Well, you could argue that Skull Knight wasn't chosen by fate, hence he couldn't use the Behelit. Oh wait, Guts wasn't chosen by fate either. So he can't possibly use the behelit at all. And we all have drawn our comparisons between Skull Knight and Guts, the one thing in common is that they can't activate the behelit.

3) We have proof straight from the mouth of Conrad that Guts cannot use the Behelit. If you say that Conrad has been under the assumption that Guts couldn't foresee his fate with using the behelit, then I don't know what the hell he's been doing with being a God Hand hundreds of years to not notice this. Behelit's are activated by people who have been fated to use it. Hence, Behelit's are a tool of fate. If you argue that Guts is outside of fate, then he can't activate the Behelit because it's a tool of fate because one must have a fate in order to activate it.

4) Slann was 'feeding off' Guts emotions in the Qliproth. The purpose of her taunting him was so that she could provoke Guts into a more agitated state, so Guts could become more raw and primal for Slann to draw on to his emotions. Her role seems to be that of the seductress, and not that of knowledge, so it didn't surprise me that Slann's taunts was to bait Guts.

All I can think off right now.

[The Prince]

Good god, not this 'Guts will use the Behelit' crap again.

People here also claim that at some point Void states that b/c of Guts being marked for sacrifice, prevented Guts from being able to use the behelit......Though I can't seem to find any such scene to back the claim up.

Of course, I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of Berserk. Either way, it was stated by one of the God Hand that Guts specifically can't use the Behelit. Unless Slann is more knowledgeable and plays a more authoritative rule amongst the God Hand, I doubt it. Regardless, surely you could have read that part with Conrad anyway, if you were looking for it. Just because Conrad said it instead of Void doesn't make me any less wrong.

I agree that Guts will somehow be able to access the God Hand via the Behelit's power, but not by the normal rituals and rules that dictates it. It might be by someone else, and Guts is along for the ride. However, I strongly disagree that Guts would be able to activate it himself, via the fate mechanism or whatever. He would not be able to use it directly by himself.

I'll try to supply some points of the top of my head as to why it can't happen:

1) If Guts was to use the behelit and become an apostle, it would mean that he is under the control of the God Hand, as with Zodd and all the rest of them. Also, being an apostle would not make him as strong as a God Hand, so this path is moot. If we are to believe that Guts is to take down the God Hand, then this would not be the option he would take.

2) Skull Knight collects Behelits as well. Does that mean he's going to be an apostle? If being an apostle would mean defeating the God Hand, wouldn't Skull Knight have used it ages ago? Well, you could argue that Skull Knight wasn't chosen by fate, hence he couldn't use the Behelit. Oh wait, Guts wasn't chosen by fate either. So he can't possibly use the behelit at all. And we all have drawn our comparisons between Skull Knight and Guts, the one thing in common is that they can't activate the behelit.

3) We have proof straight from the mouth of Conrad that Guts cannot use the Behelit. If you say that Conrad has been under the assumption that Guts couldn't foresee his fate with using the behelit, then I don't know what the hell he's been doing with being a God Hand hundreds of years to not notice this. Behelit's are activated by people who have been fated to use it. Hence, Behelit's are a tool of fate. If you argue that Guts is outside of fate, then he can't activate the Behelit because it's a tool of fate because one must have a fate in order to activate it.

4) Slann was 'feeding off' Guts emotions in the Qliproth. The purpose of her taunting him was so that she could provoke Guts into a more agitated state, so Guts could become more raw and primal for Slann to draw on to his emotions. Her role seems to be that of the seductress, and not that of knowledge, so it didn't surprise me that Slann's taunts was to bait Guts.

All I can think off right now.

1.) Doubt Guts would use it to become an apostle, maybe use to get a crack at the GH? Who knows exactly, only that it appears to have a significance and will come into play sooner or later.

2.) If I recall, the SK has been collecting behelits (in his stomach) to create the blade of resonance for the purpose of fighting the GH. There is simply no comparison btw. Guts and the SK regarding this issue, as far as I'm concerned.

3.) Well apparently Slaan wasn' t all that keen on the details, considering her comments that precceded Conrad's. And how would Conrad know Guts was living outside of fate at the time of the comment.

And BTW I'm not buying that being a "whore" precludes her from knowing how shit works, anymore than that fat blob Conrad would know.

4.) If Guts chooses to use the behelit, than obviously he was fated to use it. Just like Guts was fated to survive the eclipse, where according to the GH, he along with the rest of the BOH, was pre-ordained to be sacrificed. Obviously the GH were wrong on that, and specifically conceeded to the fact that Guts being rescued was completely unexpected.

[Aetherfukz]

3.) Well apparently Slaan wasn' t all that keen on the details, considering her comments that precceded Conrad's. And how would Conrad know Guts was living outside of fate at the time of the comment.

Well they knew he survived the eclipse, and also the months/year(s) between the eclipse and the day he fought the count. Which pretty much puts him outside of fate at the time of the comment.

4.) If Guts chooses to use the behelit, than obviously he was fated to use it. Just like Guts was fated to survive the eclipse, where according to the GH, he along with the rest of the BOH, was pre-ordained to be sacrificed. Obviously the GH were wrong on that, and specifically conceeded to the fact that Guts being rescued was completely unexpected.

Simply because he was fated to die at the eclipse, which he didn't, puts him outside of fate. They expected things that ware destined to be to happen, and Guts' and Caskas rescue was unexpected, therefore not destined.

[Eldo]

1.) Doubt Guts would use it to become an apostle, maybe use to get a crack at the GH? Who knows exactly, only that it appears to have a significance and will come into play sooner or later.

Most topics of 'can gutz use beheirt' is related to Guts eventually being an apostle. So I was quite unclear if that's what you're suggesting or not.

2.) If I recall, the SK has been collecting behelits (in his stomach) to create the blade of resonance for the purpose of fighting the GH. There is simply no comparison btw. Guts and the SK regarding this issue, as far as I'm concerned.

The point is, if Skull Knight could find another use for the behelits, he could have done so already instead of making it into a sword. Let's compare the obvious:

Guts: Can't use the behelit because he's not fated to.
SK: Can't use the behelit via another mechanism or he would have already done so.

If SK could use the behelit for the purpose of summoning the God Hand, he wouldn't have to wait until the Eclipse to try his hand on slaying Void. After hundreds of years of being SK, I think he's probably studied all there is about the Behelit, and unable to activate it, so he used his knowledge to craft a sword. My reasoning is that as Skull Knight can't use it, then there's no chance in hell that Guts could possibly do so. My argument is that people who are not fated to use it simply cannot use it at all. Same goes for Guts and Skull Knight.

3.) And how would Conrad know Guts was living outside of fate at the time of the comment.

Except for the little fact that Guts was FATED to DIE in the eclipse. He escaped his fate by surviving. I'm pretty sure the God Hand knew that he was branded, and hence escaped his fate by being able to escape from the eclipse. That would have told them that Guts was living outside fate by surviving his fated death.

And BTW I'm not buying that being a "whore" precludes her from knowing how shit works, anymore than that fat blob Conrad would know.

I didn't say that Slann doesn't know how shit works. I'm just saying that she probably doesn't know more than what Conrad would know. So I trust Conrad's words more than hers. Conrad sounds more credible than Slann's words, if I had to choose one over the other, I'd choose Conrad.

One analogy is like this: would I trust a teacher at high school or a lecturer at a university for an academic question? The latter, of course. That's not to say the teacher is dumb, they are both educated, but the latter is better informed and more knowledgeable.

4.) If Guts chooses to use the behelit, than obviously he was fated to use it. Just like Guts was fated to survive the eclipse, where according to the GH, he along with the rest of the BOH, was pre-ordained to be sacrificed. Obviously the GH were wrong on that, and specifically conceeded to the fact that Guts being rescued was completely unexpected.

People in the eclipse was fated to die. Guts escaped his fate to die. Hence, he's not under the manipulation of fate. So fate, destiny, pre-ordain does not apply to him. If the Behelit is activated by fate, then Guts cannot activate at all. Another analogy is like a machine that works by putting in a dollar coin. If I don't have a dollar, the machine doesn't work. Now, replace the dollar coin with fate, and the machine with the behelit. He's living outside of fate. Also your point seemed weird to me. You acknowledge that Guts is living outside of fate (from above), yet you say that Guts was fated to survive the eclipse. You can't be fated to live outside of fate. An oxymoron there, I'm afraid.

I think that you're arguing that while Guts escaped his fate of dying, he's still fated to use the Behelit. I don't think that's possible. Once he's escaped his fate, he's escaped fate. There isn't two paths of fate; a second fate if the first fate fails like a backup. That sounds horribly inefficient and doesn't make any sense.

Finally, let's compare the evidence for and against Guts using the Behelit:

EVIDENCE AGAINST (SOME):
- Conrad specifically states the Guts cannot use the Behelit.
- Skull Knight calls Guts a struggler, and hints that Guts is opposing fate in several encounters. Hence, cannot use the Behelit.
- Flora the witch confirms to Guts that the Behelit is controlled and activated by fate, and as above mentioned, Guts cannot use the Behelit.

EVIDENCE FOR (ALL)
- Slann asks Guts if he wants to use the Behelit in a taunting and baiting manner.

So we have 10+ pages of evidence that subtly and directly hints that Guts cannot use the Behelit, over one panel that says he could said in a mocking manner. It seems one panel is all that is needed to destroy the previous 20+ volumes of the manga that has suggested throughout the story that he couldn't.

[Rolos]

Eldo. you seem to have a lot of experience in this "Gutts can / cant use the Behelit" crap.

Just to make my position clear: I think Gutts cant, or at least wont, use the behelit.

I was merely pointing out that Void never stated that branded people cant use the behelit.


Pd: What makes you think Conrad knows more than Slaan? As far as I know, he is just a fat guy that looks like a.....worm?

[Istvan]

I don't see why Conrad needs to have known more than Slann. I'm pretty sure that Slann also knew that Guts couldn't use the Behelit. She expressed admiration for him, and said it would be amazing if he could join them. This is not the same as saying "let's recruit him, because he can become an Apostle". I could say "If I could jump off a cliff and fly, that would be amazing" without ever once believing that I can, in fact, fly. To me Slann seemed more wistful, as in "wouldn't it be neat if this could happen" than serious "let's make this happen". She knew it was impossible, but sort of wished he could be an Apostle, because she thought he'd make a great one. Similiar to various comments she made during the eclipse. Likewise in the cave, she openly admits that she is enjoying his pain/anger/suffering, and then brings up the most painful and enraging event in Guts life, a.k.a. Griffith sacrificing the Band of the Hawks. As Eldo has pointed out, she was almost certainly taunting him. Nothing Slann has said indicates to me that she actually believes Guts can make the sacrifice and become an Apostle, and as Eldo has already pointed out, the comments of quite a few people who ought to know what they're talking about indicate that he can't.

[The Prince]

4.) If Guts chooses to use the behelit, than obviously he was fated to use it. Just like Guts was fated to survive the eclipse, where according to the GH, he along with the rest of the BOH, was pre-ordained to be sacrificed. Obviously the GH were wrong on that, and specifically conceeded to the fact that Guts being rescued was completely unexpected.

People in the eclipse was fated to die. Guts escaped his fate to die. Hence, he's not under the manipulation of fate. So fate, destiny, pre-ordain does not apply to him. If the Behelit is activated by fate, then Guts cannot activate at all. Another analogy is like a machine that works by putting in a dollar coin. If I don't have a dollar, the machine doesn't work. Now, replace the dollar coin with fate, and the machine with the behelit. He's living outside of fate. Also your point seemed weird to me. You acknowledge that Guts is living outside of fate (from above), yet you say that Guts was fated to survive the eclipse. You can't be fated to live outside of fate. An oxymoron there, I'm afraid.

I think that you're arguing that while Guts escaped his fate of dying, he's still fated to use the Behelit. I don't think that's possible. Once he's escaped his fate, he's escaped fate. There isn't two paths of fate; a second fate if the first fate fails like a backup. That sounds horribly inefficient and doesn't make any sense.

With all do respect.......

Surely you're right in that it doesn't make sense. Just as in how you're wrong in your conclusion/interpretation.

My point in terms of Guts living outside of fate, has more to do with living outside of "The Idea's" direct influence. In that the Idea has spun a web where everything inevitably falls into place, where people are fated to act accordingly to preserve whatever has been destined to occur.

Where as far as Guts is concerned, whether it was from the moment of his "cursed" birth or his relentless will to survive (events of the eclipse), he has for whatever reason broke free from the fate the Idea layed upon him. So just because Guts' destiny lies outside of the "Idea's" direct influence does not equate that Guts does not have a "fate", only that his "fate" is beyond that of the Idea's.

*Keep in mind when I use the word "fate" (fate in parantheses) it would have the same meaning as one's "destiny" as far as I'm concerned. Where apparently these two terms aren't exactly interchangeable according to some.

[Eldo]

Just as in how you're wrong in your conclusion/interpretation.

As with yours. A destiny to oppose fate? Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? An underlying mechanism to oppose the mechanism?

Your argument is that Guts still has a fate outside of Idea. However, it is Idea who arranges fate in its entirety. To suggest that Guts is still under the manipulation of fate/destiny, yet not under Idea's control means that there is another higher order beyond Idea. Now, there is nowhere in the manga that suggests this is the case, nor does it say anywhere that Guts destiny/fate (notice how I'm using it interchangeably) or preordained is to live outside of fate. One does not become destined to oppose fate. It is a fact that human beings do not control their own destiny/fate, and that Idea controls their fate. Human beings do not have their own innate destiny that they are born with that are overridden by Idea, which seems to be what you are suggesting. Unless you want to cite examples in the manga where it has been specifically stated. Human beings are not destined/fated to follow fate set by Idea, they are simply fated by Idea. Why have the middle man there when it's not necessary? You see, there's a large difference between destined to be controlled by fate, and just controlled by fate in general. If I oppose my fate, does it mean I'm destined to do so? Why is that the case, and why is destiny involved to oppose the same mechanism? So, if I don't oppose my fate, does it mean that I'm opposing my destiny to do so?

[The Prince]

Just as in how you're wrong in your conclusion/interpretation.

As with yours. A destiny to oppose fate? Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? An underlying mechanism to oppose the mechanism?

Your argument is that Guts still has a fate outside of Idea. However, it is Idea who arranges fate in its entirety. To suggest that Guts is still under the manipulation of fate/destiny, yet not under Idea's control means that there is another higher order beyond Idea. Now, there is nowhere in the manga that suggests this is the case, nor does it say anywhere that Guts destiny/fate (notice how I'm using it interchangeably) or preordained is to live outside of fate. One does not become destined to oppose fate. It is a fact that human beings do not control their own destiny/fate, and that Idea controls their fate. Human beings do not have their own innate destiny that they are born with that are overridden by Idea, which seems to be what you are suggesting. Unless you want to cite examples in the manga where it has been specifically stated. Human beings are not destined/fated to follow fate set by Idea, they are simply fated by Idea. Why have the middle man there when it's not necessary? You see, there's a large difference between destined to be controlled by fate, and just controlled by fate in general. If I oppose my fate, does it mean I'm destined to do so? Why is that the case, and why is destiny involved to oppose the same mechanism? So, if I don't oppose my fate, does it mean that I'm opposing my destiny to do so?

I believe we got ahead of ourselves since the argument started from what the GH knew in terms of what "is to be", not the Idea itself. When the members of the GH stated that they can't know everything (b/c they're not God), which was what I was basing my original POV from.

Regarding what you so adamantly take issue with. From my end I find such abstract concepts hard to rationalize, and at this point don't see it as cut and dry and you want to make it seem....IMHO.

But I have my reasons for my views. Under the assumption that Guts may in fact play a part in the prophecies of Berserk when its all said and done, there would be several passages from the manga, which would support my argument. But at this point, there is no "one" passage I can draw up to prove that the Idea isn't as omnipotent as made out to be.


*Not that this has anything to do with you, but how hilarious is this shit!....But..



Why can't I embed?