Berserk Chapter: 278

Post by **Eldo** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:53 pm

I don't think Griffith was aware he was going to lose, but rather acknowledge that Guts has improved substancially since their last fight, and that he may not be able to defeat him as easily as the first time. Which is why Griffith was ready to kill him simply because wounding him may not be possible with Guts. He thought out his tactic and was never expecting the worse from it; including Guts cutting through his sword. He wasn't aware he was going to lose, otherwise he would not have felt so devastated after the fight.

Post by **Istvan** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:13 pm

Right. He acknowledged Guts as a difficult opponent, and thought that to win he would have to use a strike that could easily kill Guts if anything went wrong, but he never considered that he'd loose, just that he might not be able to both win and keep Guts alive.

Post by **Phoenix** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:19 am

I never said Griffith thought he was going to lose, I merely said that he acknowledged it as a very real possibility and could not merely shoot to wound.

Post by **Eldo** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:31 am

In my opinion, he knew that he would lose if he didn't try his hardest, or didn't use the failed tactic he tried out. I don't think it ever occurred in Griffith's mind that his tactic would fail. The possibility of losing, could or would, never crossed Griffith's mind. He was absolutely certain he was going to win, even if it meant killing Guts in the progress. Griffith seemed absolutely shocked that he had lost, if he had thought about the possibility of losing, he wouldn't have taken it so badly.

Post by **Phoenix** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:34 am

Like I said, I think he thought of it as a technical possibility, it just hadn't hit home. It was unknown to him at the time, so even though he admits it can happen, it's still unexpected.

Post by **Eldo** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:48 am

Phoenix wrote:Like I said, I think he thought of it as a technical possibility, it just hadn't hit home. It was unknown to him at the time, so even though he admits it can happen, it's still unexpected.

Uh, um, OK. I'll just stick with my theory, because it makes sense for me.

Post by **newbified** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:50 am

How often had Griffith lost anything up to that point? Especially something he wanted.

Post by **Phoenix** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:58 am

Uh, um, OK. I'll just stick with my theory, because it makes sense for me.

You can't tell me you've never seen something as a real possibility, yet still be completely shocked when it happens?

How often had Griffith lost anything up to that point? Especially something he wanted.

I don't know, how often did Griffith act like he did just before fighting Gutts? Griffith was strong, not stupid. He knew it would come down to one-hit, and that it could go either way.

Post by **Eldo** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:08 am

Phoenix wrote:You can't tell me you've never seen something as a real possibility, yet still be completely shocked when it happens?

If I have utmost certainty what I am doing something that I will definitely succeed, then no, the thought or possibility that I will fail wouldn't cross my mind. If something unexpected happens, then I would be completely shocked out of my mind. Otherwise I would have thought about the consequences of the failure, and wouldn't be shocked out of my mind.

Post by **Phoenix** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:19 am

If I have utmost certainty what I am doing something that I will definitely succeed, then no, the thought or possibility that I will fail wouldn't cross my mind. If something unexpected happens, then I would be completely shocked out of my mind. Otherwise I would have thought about the consequences of the failure, and wouldn't be shocked out of my mind.

Well, it happens. Usually, when your the best at something, say chess, and you play a difficult opponent, you admit to yourself that you may lose, but still feel outrage and shock when it actually happens.

Post by **Eldo** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:33 am

Griffith was different, he thought he was perfect and undefeatable against any human. He has never lost a battle or a duel in his whole life (besides Zodd, although they had won the battle there, they couldn't defeat Zodd). This fictional character, as written by Miura, doesn't exist in real life, because he has never experienced failure at what he has done. Sure, he's endured some hardships, but never failures on his part. He always got what he wanted. He was near perfection against any human, but it wasn't until Guts that we, and himself knew he wasn't.

I'm thinking in Griffith's mindframe, and not my own. Personally, I wouldn't match my psychology with anyone of you, I've been told I'm not human.

Post by **Phoenix** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:44 am

Griffith was different, he thought he was perfect and undefeatable against any human. He has never lost a battle or a duel in his whole life (besides Zodd, although they had won the battle there, they couldn't defeat Zodd). This fictional character, as written by Miura, doesn't exist in real life, because he has never experienced failure at what he has done. Sure, he's endured some hardships, but never failures on his part. He always got what he wanted. He was near perfection against any human, but it wasn't until Guts that we, and himself knew he wasn't.

Perhaps you're right, but I believe, though, that Griffith wouldn't have been worried if he didn't know he could lose. Yes, he still would've gone for the kill, but he wouldn't have been as worried as he was.

I'm thinking in Griffith's mindframe, and not my own. Personally, I wouldn't match my psychology with anyone of you, I've been told I'm not human.

I'll try to keep that in mind XD

Post by **Skullkracker** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:17 am

I think rereading Gr.'s actual chain of thoughts would be a good way to end this discussion

Post by **Joeki** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:02 am

Looking at the script , it seems to me that at first Griffith did "fear" the possibility that he could lose . Expressing with words like "chance" and "not even sure I can take his swing" etc.

But once he establishes what he's going to do , I.E. his strategy , I don't think he Believed he could lose anymore.

Post by **Skullkracker** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:39 am

he didn't fear IMO, he was simply aware of the disadvantages, but that doesn't mean that once he chose his strategy the chance of losing even crossed his mind

but it doesn't really matter does it?
Why don't we get back to the latest chapter?

Post by **MrFelony** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:27 pm

good old skully keeping things on track

Post by **Skullkracker** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:05 pm

probably the first time I actually did that

Post by **Gattsblackfalcon** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:03 am

Gatts skills , the way he analises the enemy's attacks (just remember the duel with Serpico ), all this made Gatts the best swordman in this story , i bet that Griffiths (not Femto ) fighting an apostle like Wild can't last for one second .

Post by **Libaax** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:32 am

Griffith as human was like Serpico, good swordsman and tactician but didnt have the strenght or as much swordskill as Guts to beat an apostle like Guts does.

Post by **Gattsblackfalcon** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:44 am

Libaax wrote:Griffith as human was like Serpico, good swordsman and tactician but didnt have the strenght or as much swordskill as Guts to beat an apostle like Guts does.

true that! , Gatts strenght and skills are beyond of any human and even some apostles IMO.

Post by **yupachups** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:24 pm

Virtra wrote:OMG... finally they get on the boat!

that is a hell of a scenario we got here!!

this seinen has became an obsession for me.

Post by **Istvan** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:49 pm

Griffith as human was like Serpico, good swordsman and tactician but didnt have the strenght or as much swordskill as Guts to beat an apostle like Guts does.

In a lot of ways, to me it seems that what allows Guts to defeat Apostles is less about skill (although he has a lot of that, and it is very important) then about power and sheer tenacity. His power, and that of having a huge blade allow him to trade blows with Apostles, and when he hits them it does a lot of damage. Even more important, Guts can take a huge amount of damage, and keep right on ticking, and that kind of tenacity seems to be essential for a human to fight Apostles. We laugh at Guts "getting up just to trash talk" in the last chapter, but the ability to get up in those circumstances is a large part of what Zodd respects about him, and if he hadn't been able to get up (which most people, wounded that bad, couldn't have) Zodd would have probably killed him as being too weak to be his rival.

Post by **Phoenix** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:32 pm

"*If* successful, he'll be badly injured"

See, Griffith certainly recognized the possibility for losing, but it hadn't hit home until it happened.

Post by **Libaax** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:52 pm

Istvan wrote:
Griffith as human was like Serpico, good swordsman and tactician but didnt have the strenght or as much swordskill as Guts to beat an apostle like Guts does.
In a lot of ways, to me it seems that what allows Guts to defeat Apostles is less about skill (although he has a lot of that, and it is very important) then about power and sheer tenacity. His power, and that of having a huge blade allow him to trade blows with Apostles, and when he hits them it does a lot of damage. Even more important, Guts can take a huge amount of damage, and keep right on ticking, and that kind of tenacity seems to be essential for a human to fight Apostles. We laugh at Guts "getting up just to trash talk" in the last chapter, but the ability to get up in those circumstances is a large part of what Zodd respects about him, and if he hadn't been able to get up (which most people, wounded that bad, couldn't have) Zodd would have probably killed him as being too weak to be his rival.

His toughness has always been one of his strenghts.

If his skill hasnt become as it is now, he would have died long ago toughness without skill and strenght is useless.

Its is a skill to be able to swing that huge sword as well as he does its not only about strenght.

Just as toughness strenght without his level of skill is useless too.

Post by **Istvan** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:03 pm

Oh, I'm not saying that toughness alone would in any way be enough, but it is probably at least as essential to his success as his power and strength. For example, back when they fought Zodd, I'm pretty sure that Griffith was still better then Guts at that point, but Guts did a lot better in the fight, simply because he was a lot tougher and so could keep fighting much longer.