Guts and Griffith: The ties that bind

[Istvan]

It will be really interesting to see how Guts decides to proceed once Caska is healed, since right now he is so focused on getting her to elfhiem that he isn't even thinking about what to do afterwards. Also, I suspect what Caska says after she's sane again may have an influence, so I'm sort of wondering what she's going to want to do.

[MrFelony]

i see two things happening in elfhelm. casca not being healed and casca being healed and rejecting guts.

[Libaax]

I like the second option more.


I coulndt take if she was a veg in the rest of the manga and we cant get rid of her.

[Istvan]

So you don't see any chance of her being healed and deciding to stay with Guts as a member of the party? Also, if she leaves, what happens to Farnese, with her need to protect an individual weaker then herself (for that matter what happens to Farnese even if she stays)?

[frosty]

Removing or not removing the brand is not important. Even if the God Hand doesn't come after Guts, he will go after them. I think Caska is a liability. She needs to be deposited somewhere so that Guts can concentrate/focus on what he needs to do.

I think other than Caska, Guts has a lot of healing to do as well. He is so battled that everytime he loses control to the armour there is such a strong possibility that he will self detruct. Who wanna watch a half ass showdown between Guts & Griffith ? We want to see a 100% Guts vs 100% Griffith and how the two slug it out.

Interesting about how Guts & Griffith started out being bond by their love from each other to a duel that splits them up. Leading to the eclipse that bonds them again via hate. In the final duel, they should come full circle. Maybe both will die and Griffith change back to Caska's baby. Since the baby is in "essence" both Griffith & Guts, we'll have Griffith & Guts reconcile in a single physical form.

[MrFelony]

I don't think there was any talk of removing the brands...just supressing them. i just can't see casca being strong enough to fight griffith mentally. It's possible, i won't say that she wont be healed and join up with guts and his gang, but it just doesn't fit with teh feel of the manga to me. something tragic should come from this imo

[Khelegond]

I think there's going to be a conflict. I think she won't remember anything from after the beggining of the Eclipse. She won't remember she has been raped by Griffith, and as Gatts tell her she has been raped she won't believe. Then he'll say he became a demon lord. She won't believe. And later, he'll tell her he has reincarnated, while she'll only see him in his normal form - even more angelic than before.

She won't hate Gatts, in my eyes, but I'm quite sure whe won't hate Griffith...

[Libaax]

If she becomes normal she will remember everything and wont be able to handle it. That her so called friend and leader raped her and killed everyone else. Thats why i think she wont be in a state to follow Guts to fight Griffith.

[elric le tueur d'amis]

you understimate Caska's will power,remember how she reacted when Guts,Griffith or herself were in danger;
if his mind is cured,she'll probably cry a lot then want to hurt everyone who is near her and after long explanations about what happened during his vegetative state,she could join the fight vs the apostles.

[Khelegond]

I think it's a bit worst. The man she fought to save raped her. Killed everyone that she kept alive to rescue him. She might even think it was her fault.

It doesn't matter one's willpower, she WILL be overwhelmed. I still think she won't like what happened to her. But let's see it when the time comes.

Oh, and btw...I think Schierke will do some huge spell to help Gatts. Or infuse his sword with lightning (like she did with fire), then being able to at least hold his attacks. Cool hein?

[Istvan]

I think there's going to be a conflict. I think she won't remember anything from after the beggining of the Eclipse. She won't remember she has been raped by Griffith, and as Gatts tell her she has been raped she won't believe. Then he'll say he became a demon lord. She won't believe. And later, he'll tell her he has reincarnated, while she'll only see him in his normal form - even more angelic than before.

I can't actually picture her thinking of Gutts as a liar, though. As difficult as all that would be for her to believe, she knows Guts well enough to know that he wouldn't lie to her. Actually, can you recall any time when Guts told a serious lie to anyone? I'm coming up blank there, he's not really the lieing type.

I think it's a bit worst. The man she fought to save raped her. Killed everyone that she kept alive to rescue him. She might even think it was her fault.

It doesn't matter one's willpower, she WILL be overwhelmed. I still think she won't like what happened to her. But let's see it when the time comes.

Oh, and btw...I think Schierke will do some huge spell to help Gatts. Or infuse his sword with lightning (like she did with fire), then being able to at least hold his attacks. Cool hein?

I wonder if she'll end up in a similiar mental state as Rickert. You remember when Guts told him that he couldn't hate Griffith? While I think she will end up somewhat hating Griffith, after everything he did to her, I wonder if she will be able to hate him enough to seriously fight against him. For so long he was the most important thing to her in the world, and even after she fell for Guts this mostly continued to be true (she loved Guts, but the reason she was planning to leave with Guts, not stay with Griffith, was because she felt Guts might need her, and she knew that Griffith never would).

As for the spell, it's a nifty idea, and I wouldn't be surprised (though I wonder if she still has that kind of energy) but I wouldn't think it would be lightning, since how would that hurt him? I would think it would have to be some other element that was in opposition to his.

[Eldo]

I think there's going to be a conflict. I think she won't remember anything from after the beggining of the Eclipse. She won't remember she has been raped by Griffith, and as Gatts tell her she has been raped she won't believe. Then he'll say he became a demon lord. She won't believe. And later, he'll tell her he has reincarnated, while she'll only see him in his normal form - even more angelic than before.

I can't actually picture her thinking of Gutts as a liar, though. As difficult as all that would be for her to believe, she knows Guts well enough to know that he wouldn't lie to her. Actually, can you recall any time when Guts told a serious lie to anyone? I'm coming up blank there, he's not really the lieing type.

I think what Khelegond means is that Casca will be in denial and will lash out and claim that Guts is lying regardless if it's the truth or not. That does seem like a feasible scenario, but she won't exactly play the helpless or emotional woman role.

[Istvan]

I'll agree that denial is a possibility, but I would see that as more likely to take the form of thinking Griffith was somehow tricked or possessed, that Guts was mistaken, that someone had used magic (which she would now be surrounded by, and so would believe in) to fool/possess Guts, ect. rather then actually claiming Guts was lying. I could be wrong, but even in serious denial I can't really see Caska as believing that Guts would lie to her.

[Quest]

I think there's going to be a conflict. I think she won't remember anything from after the beggining of the Eclipse. She won't remember she has been raped by Griffith, and as Gatts tell her she has been raped she won't believe. Then he'll say he became a demon lord. She won't believe. And later, he'll tell her he has reincarnated, while she'll only see him in his normal form - even more angelic than before.

She won't hate Gatts, in my eyes, but I'm quite sure whe won't hate Griffith...

yeah thats the best possible outcome for the storyline.
it will open up a lot of character intereactions and make the triangle more defined.

ultimately will she choose guts or griffith?
thats the question.

[Khelegond]

I think she'll choose Griffith. Not because she doesn't want Gatts, but because she's his sword. Remember that? So, she might say that is her destiny, and will help Griffith get his own kingdom. And in denial, she won't believe Gatts.

Later, she'll see what he really is - surrounded by demons. Who knows, she might het a glimpse of the eclipse and remember she had been attacked and almost raped by those same demons. And then...looks at Griffith, and his façade disappears, making her remember Femto, not Griffith.

And then, my friend, there won't be a place in her heart for him, only with rage. It'll be all Gatts once again, and now without any kind of holding back.

Of course, Miura can prove me wrong all the way lol. Let's wait and see

[EvilDmitri]

I think she'll choose Griffith. Not because she doesn't want Gatts, but because she's his sword. Remember that? So, she might say that is her destiny, and will help Griffith get his own kingdom. And in denial, she won't believe Gatts.

Later, she'll see what he really is - surrounded by demons. Who knows, she might het a glimpse of the eclipse and remember she had been attacked and almost raped by those same demons. And then...looks at Griffith, and his façade disappears, making her remember Femto, not Griffith.

And then, my friend, there won't be a place in her heart for him, only with rage. It'll be all Gatts once again, and now without any kind of holding back.

Of course, Miura can prove me wrong all the way lol. Let's wait and see

I'd rather not have her choose Griffith.. but when you look at the story from a writer's prospective..

Gatts can't just get Casca back and have everything hunky-dory. It would be too simple to have them fight together against Griffith so..

SPECULATION:
Casca goes to Griffith.
Casca stays with Gatts but in Elfhiem she cannot be cured, sending them on some other quest.
Griffith beats Gatts to Elfhiem and slaughters everyone, making Puck's homecoming a bittersweet one with a whole lot of drama.
Griffith has Casca captured.

I think the latter two are most likely.

[Khelegond]

SPECULATION:
Casca goes to Griffith.
Casca stays with Gatts but in Elfhiem she cannot be cured, sending them on some other quest.
Griffith beats Gatts to Elfhiem and slaughters everyone, making Puck's homecoming a bittersweet one with a whole lot of drama.
Griffith has Casca captured.

I think the latter two are most likely.

Don't think so. Griffith is too much involved with the Kushan invasion to simply stop his plans and go to Elfheim. I think the Elfheim trip will be quite uneventfull, with the staying at Elfheim being used for some background clarification, mostly 'esoteric' shit

[EvilDmitri]

SPECULATION:
Casca goes to Griffith.
Casca stays with Gatts but in Elfhiem she cannot be cured, sending them on some other quest.
Griffith beats Gatts to Elfhiem and slaughters everyone, making Puck's homecoming a bittersweet one with a whole lot of drama.
Griffith has Casca captured.

I think the latter two are most likely.

Don't think so. Griffith is too much involved with the Kushan invasion to simply stop his plans and go to Elfheim. I think the Elfheim trip will be quite uneventfull, with the staying at Elfheim being used for some background clarification, mostly 'esoteric' shit

Not Griffith himself of course.. I think he will send one of his major guys. My guess would be one which is characterized as ruthless and has no regard for honor - the masked guy. I wouldn't be suprised if he was sent to Elfheim to slaughter everyone and act as a welcoming party to Gatts and crew.

[Khelegond]

...or maybe they'll arrive in the middle of a slaughter, saving a good deal of elves, thus receiving the gratitude of the elven king, Starn...I mean, Nobufu or whatever he's called, and he'll heal Casca for that. Weird hein? It may be a bit cliche, but it's not bad. Not bad at all...let's wait and see

[MrFelony]

you understimate Caska's will power,remember how she reacted when Guts,Griffith or herself were in danger;
if his mind is cured,she'll probably cry a lot then want to hurt everyone who is near her and after long explanations about what happened during his vegetative state,she could join the fight vs the apostles.

it wasnt for judeau, she would have died where she stood in teh eclipse and look at her now, she already didnt have the will power to handle it.

[elric le tueur d'amis]

yes,during the eclipse she should have died,Guts too but that is not enough to say that she'll stay in a vegetative or denial state forever;
I am still sure that if his broken mind is cured she could handle with her fear (not in one day of course).

I can talk about psychology with you to explain that his vegetative state was a protection for her after being rapped and that the only cure for her should be to live with his child (the kid on the beach probably) and Guts in a good environment,Elfheim but I am sure that the manga won't evolve like this .

[Sandman]

Couple of things: the old Caska is in that broken mind some where, all the stuff she does shows use that: the attemped rape and the hopping down that cliff after the heritic party; also where, when and how she comes back is far beyond anyones knowledge, (save Muira) all clues point to the elven king but that isnt for sure. The cool thing is that no matter how remote the possiblity Guts is willing to try.

Now as for Griffith, he is done with Caska and with an army of apostles at his side I dont think she would last long, being a sacrafice and all

Assuming that Caska does come back there is no telling what her state will be: will she have acute Amneisha or full amneisha, will she remeber anything that happend to her during or after the eclipse, will she want revenge for her and Guts's baby that was tainted by Griffith and then absorded by him later? (I can what to find out the answers )

And last but not least, will Guts still want to fight after Caska is back to normal? Maybe they will be able to stay on Elfhiem and live happily ever after.... HA that is until Griffith isnt satisfied with being the king of Midland anymore, or starts raining terror over everything even Elfheim, then Guts might fight again.

OOPS long post my bad

[Istvan]

Not Griffith himself of course.. I think he will send one of his major guys. My guess would be one which is characterized as ruthless and has no regard for honor - the masked guy. I wouldn't be suprised if he was sent to Elfheim to slaughter everyone and act as a welcoming party to Gatts and crew.

I can't actually see Miura doing anything that cliche. This whole series has avoided the cliches and stereotypes you see in a lot of other series, and I'll be really disapointed if Miura does something like that now. I don't see Elfheim as already leveled or in the process of being leveled by the time they arrive. Besides, it probably isn't all that easy to level. We've see the kind of damage Schierk can dish out, and she's only just graduated from being an apprentice. Elfhiem is supposed to be full of wizards and witches (as well as elves) so destroying the place would probably be a major undertaking, and I think Griffith has enough on his plate right now that he doesn't need to go borrowing that kind of major fight.

And last but not least, will Guts still want to fight after Caska is back to normal? Maybe they will be able to stay on Elfhiem and live happily ever after.... HA that is until Griffith isnt satisfied with being the king of Midland anymore, or starts raining terror over everything even Elfheim, then Guts might fight again.

If he isn't stopped I strongly doubt that Griffith would leave Elfhiem alone. THough he probably won't want to fight it just yet, it is and will remain a threat to him, just like the witch in the forest was, so in the long term I'm sure he'd want to destroy it, and it is entirely possible that they know this, and will help the party because of it. So staying on Elfhiem probably isn't in the cards. Besides, can you actually picture Guts leading a peaceful life under any circumstances? When his entire dream (before the eclipse) was to see the sparks caused by difficult fights against strong foes?

[EvilDmitri]

Not Griffith himself of course.. I think he will send one of his major guys. My guess would be one which is characterized as ruthless and has no regard for honor - the masked guy. I wouldn't be suprised if he was sent to Elfheim to slaughter everyone and act as a welcoming party to Gatts and crew.

I can't actually see Miura doing anything that cliche. This whole series has avoided the cliches and stereotypes you see in a lot of other series, and I'll be really disapointed if Miura does something like that now. I don't see Elfheim as already leveled or in the process of being leveled by the time they arrive. Besides, it probably isn't all that easy to level. We've see the kind of damage Schierk can dish out, and she's only just graduated from being an apprentice. Elfhiem is supposed to be full of wizards and witches (as well as elves) so destroying the place would probably be a major undertaking, and I think Griffith has enough on his plate right now that he doesn't need to go borrowing that kind of major fight.

Miura has already done plenty of Cliche things with Berserk. From what I can tell the story follows the Greek "Hero's Journey" archetype. Everything from the circumstances of his birth to Skullknight's acting as a guide fits in to the archetype. Also, one of the situations that is part of that archetype is the "belly of the beast" situation, namely the eclipse, where the hero is thrown into the depths of the enemy with seemingly no help to get out. Miura is a good writer, but he isn't something extraordinary and groundbreaking. Cliches get that way because they work and have worked for hundreds of years. Most breakthrough writing, even things we consider good, has already been done by people a long time ago.

[Eldo]

I don't really consider the Eclipse anything that cliche...the Eclipse was about the most random thing I've seen throughout the manga. While something influencial was to be expected after the golden years with the Hawks, nothing like that was expected nor was it cliche to see it happen. I was expecting maybe that Guts lost his arm in a war or something, but nothing like that in the Eclipse. I have to admit that Miura has used some plot devices that may seem similar in other mangas, but nothing that cliche, predictable or repeated and old has been seen as compared to other mangas, like shounen mangas.

Also, I'm not quite sure if you can say it follows the Greek 'Hero's Journey'. Guts is not by definition a 'hero' at all, he doesn't help people, he's on a hunt for apostles. He has no motives for rescuing people at all, he's just roaming around the lands killing apostles for his own purposes.

Elfhelm is well hidden away from Griffith, as well as Guts and company. It seems the only way to find Elfhelm is through Puck, and unless Griffith's army follows Guts' move, there won't be a chance of Griffith burning Elfhelm to the ground.