Newbie Berserk Discussion Thread

[Libaax]

Guts cant be compared to someone, his awesomeness through the manga is very special and its unfair comparing others like SK,Zodd etc to him.


I was forever Guts fanboy when Griffith told him he had won in thier first fight and Guts told him you talk too much and ate the tip of his sword


Even then as young punk, he was teh shit

[EnglishJim]

Can't argue with that.

If I'm honest, I'd say that in the beginning Guts wasn't that likeable a guy. But once you see the shit-storm from Hell that is his life, you can't help but cheer him on.

[Gattsblackfalcon]

Yep, Gatts is teh shit.

I am a Gatts fanboy too.

[MrFelony]

Libaax, I think you're the one who doesn't understand the different ways people can warp love in their mind. while ture I agree that Griffith would probably never be able to know the idealized image of what love should be, however, I believe that Griffith was capable of a possessive love. Now you can argue that that isnt what love is, but then many people aren't capable of love. and for being such a fanboy youre really putting Guts down to say that he couldn't be that one person who griffith may be capable of calling friend

[Libaax]

Possessive love isn't love!


I am not putting Guts down, Griffith is the one that isn't fit to be Guts friend.


He might think he is something special but he isn't.


I am talking about normal human love, dont care about Griffith's version.


You say many people arent capable of love, thats exactly what i am saying about Griffith.

[Istvan]

Possessive love isn't love!


I am not putting Guts down, Griffith is the one that isn't fit to be Guts friend.


He might think he is something special but he isn't.


I am talking about normal human love, dont care about Griffith's version.


You say many people arent capable of love, thats exactly what i am saying about Griffith.

Well, I looked up the definition of love on Dictionary.com, and there are frankly way to many of them to be worth quoting here, but I will say that the definition doesn't support your contention that love can't be possessive. You might claim that your, personal ideal of what love ought to be can't be possessive, but since that is a highly subjective standard, I don't see that it's really worth anything in a debate. To say that Griffith is uncapable of love, because he doesn't meet your definition, is absurd. The only people Griffith's version would have to satisfy would be himself and Guts. You say he isn't worthy to be Guts friend, I'll point out that until the Eclipse (which had rather unusual and extenuating circumstances leading up to it) Guts would have disagreed with you. I'd say he's the only one fit to deside if someone can be his friend.

As to your claim that Griffith isn't anything special, I'll just point out that quiet a few volumes of the manga are devoted to just how special Griffith is. Saying he isn't special is like ignoring a fourth (maybe more, I'm not sure off hand) of the manga.

I'm not saying that Griffith is a wonderful person, or that I personally like him, but your arguments just don't seem to stand up.

[Libaax]

Who cares how Griffith loves and i dont care how the defination is,what griffith felt for guts isnt love.




Griffith wasnt so special, yeah he was good at using people making them die for him etc

Without Guts and co he wouldnt have got anywhere.



Anyway who cares how Griffith was as a human, just saying mrfelony theorys about the great love Griffith had for Guts is way off. Griffith himself said he didnt care about anyone of them, he wanted Guts when he couldnt stop him anymore.

Of course he wanted Guts so much, without him Griffith would still be a small time merc leader.

Guts even killed for him as assasin.


Anyway i am tired talking about how good Griffith was and how much he loved Guts to Griffith fanboys.

Most of us who arent Griffith fanboys know Griffith didnt know how to have feelings other than his holy quest for power. The only thing that made him human was his ego and lust for power.

[Skullkracker]

hehe, Libaax springs into action

[MrFelony]

I think your hate for griffith is distorting your view of things. but this is a work of art and can be interpreted differently by different people. you've got your opinion i've got mine. and just to let you know, I'm not the only one who thinks griffith loved guts, I'm not even the one who first suggested it probably. Shit, what about all those gay jokes people have made in the past, though i'm not saying griffith loved him like that . there are just two sides of the coin, one who think griffith was devoid of any emotions, and one who thinks griffith felt guts was his friend/loved him. And the "theory" that griffith loved guts (in a manner of speaking) isn't crazy libaax. thinking that Ishidoro is actually guts and casca's son is crazy. It just seems to me that your hatred of Griffith is preventing you from taking an unbiased look at griffith.

[42ndEndOfTheWorld]

Who cares how Griffith loves and i dont care how the defination is,what griffith felt for guts isnt love.




Griffith wasnt so special, yeah he was good at using people making them die for him etc

Without Guts and co he wouldnt have got anywhere.



Anyway who cares how Griffith was as a human, just saying mrfelony theorys about the great love Griffith had for Guts is way off. Griffith himself said he didnt care about anyone of them, he wanted Guts when he couldnt stop him anymore.

Of course he wanted Guts so much, without him Griffith would still be a small time merc leader.

Guts even killed for him as assasin.


Anyway i am tired talking about how good Griffith was and how much he loved Guts to Griffith fanboys.

Most of us who arent Griffith fanboys know Griffith didnt know how to have feelings other than his holy quest for power. The only thing that made him human was his ego and lust for power.

Sorry, but with all due respect, I totally disagree with you. I have great respect for pre-eclipse Griffith, and although I hate post-eclipse Griffith, I have to admit that, taken as the whole, Griffith is one of the most complex characters in any manga.

Yes, people who are only good at at using other people are assholes, but to say that Griffith's only trait was manipulation is totally ridiculous. He is the best strategist and tactician in the manga, and he was second best swordsman in the Hawks.

Yes he noticed Gut's potential and, like all great leaders, decided to take him. It's mediocre leader who wants to have mediocre people around him, so they wont be a treat for his position. He was Gut's true friend, although he didn't want to confess that, not even to himself. When Griffith saved Gut's life for the first time, that was just business, and he openly admitted that, but second time, against Zod, was genuine act of friendship, and it costed him dearly. He didn't have to do that and, actually, it would have been much smarter and safer for him to leave Gut's to his fate. And I also disagree that "without Guts and co he wouldn't have got anywhere", because it is obvious from the manga that Griffith masterminded all battles and assassinations, not Guts and co.

Now about that dream of his. Although that dream wasn't altruistic, it wasn't destructive, either. He neither wanted to spread peace and justice nor terror and destruction. He just wanted to make something of himself, to expand his power, and according to my signature and good ol' Nietzsche, that's not such a bad thing. And when you look at the big picture of events, his dream brought positive changes in the world (I am talking about pre-eclipse Griffith), because he ended a 100-year war.

[Istvan]

Who cares how Griffith loves and i dont care how the defination is,what griffith felt for guts isnt love.

So your opinion of what a word means is worth more then a dictionaries?

Griffith wasnt so special, yeah he was good at using people making them die for him etc

Without Guts and co he wouldnt have got anywhere.

That's just absurd. It's like saying that without their armies, Alexander and Napolean and Ceasar wouldn't have gotten anywhere. It's technically true, but's the fact that they are so special that let them accomplish so much with those armies. Heck, in the case of Griffith (as with Napolean and Ceasar) he had to be special to get an army. Nobody just handed him one. He personally created the Hawks, working for years and recruiting members one by one, then look at everything he accomplished with them. That's incredibly impressive.

Anyway who cares how Griffith was as a human, just saying mrfelony theorys about the great love Griffith had for Guts is way off. Griffith himself said he didnt care about anyone of them, he wanted Guts when he couldnt stop him anymore.

He also said that Guts was "the only one who ever made me forget my dream", and when he was being tortured used the image of Guts to maintain what was left of his sanity. These are not the actions and words of someone who doesn't care. Even Caska recognizes this, go re-read the conversation they have after she falls off the cliff, and the other one after Guts comes back. One can argue about the word "love", but to claim that Griffith didn't care about Guts is just absurd.

Again, Griffith isn't my favorite character or anything, but I don't let dislike cloud my vision.

[Libaax]

My last post was too much annoyed part of me getting free reign let see if i can do better this time.





I know Griffith was special in a way but not nearly as much as they people of midland thought. Cause they didnt know how much he rode on the back of Guts and the rest of Hawks. Sure he prolly would get that far without Guts but not that quick. The raid leader and the assassin guts did everything griffith needed to get to his goal and fast.


Yeah he was a genius tactician but many times they won battles on Guts enormous skills and power. What he did to end the war no normal solider could have done that.

Dont even compare a normal soldier like real humans that fought under napoleon etc Could a normal soldier did what Guts did against Gascogne or what ever that general was called at the battle at the end of 100 year war.


You misunderstood me bigtime, i never said he didnt care for Guts i said he never loved him thats a huge difference.

I am rereading right now and Griffith nature disgust me even more now that i have refreshed the memories of him.

The last duel is perfect picture of what Griffith feels for Guts, he wants him so bad he wanted to risk killing him.

To me and most people a sane person doesn't kill someone they love. A psycho would and they dont love as normal humans and the kind of love i am talking about is that. I was talking about how normal humans love fictional or not not talking about warped love.



You know Femto i dont feel much hate against cause he is a demon. Griffith is much more evil to me cause how he used people specially Guts.


I am at the part of his torture scenes right now, i enjoy it seeing him rot now unlike before when i thought he would not end up as evil as he has become.




To sum up my post: He was a great leader and tactician and manipulater but rest of him was garbage and evil.
Guts and Hawks did much for him and he didnt even care about them until Guts became an important tool.

I say he never loved anyone in the hawks and specially not Guts.

[MrFelony]

libaax (or someone), could you post or pm me some pages from teh duel. if i remember it correctly, he came up with a strategy, realised it could accidentally kill him, got nervous cause he didnt want that, reassured himself that it was the only way to beat him and that he could pull it off or something, and that it was a risk he would have to take. now tell me, do you believe guts loved griffith? what do you think was going through guts' head? from the way he thought, do you think if he made a simple mistake of not stopping his sword quick enough that he could have killed griffith?

I will admit that it's a possibility that griffith didnt love guts (it's all on interpretation anyway ), but there's one thing i want to say (mainly cause you wont like it ):

griffith and guts are VERY much alike, especially when guts was going through his black swordsman phase.

[EnglishJim]

Even after I re-read the battle scene I still disagree that Griffith loved Guts, but you're right, it is all down to interpretation. What's similar about the two is that they both isolate themselves, I felt Griffith did even more so. Until Guts was recruited Griffith had never known true friendship and neither had Guts for that matter. He'd never allowed himself to have that with anyone and ultimately, he came to depend on Guts too much to achieve his goals. So as Guts was leaving, he thought he saw his dream slipping away too.

[MrFelony]

well i wasn't saying that that scene alone says griffith loved guts, just that it showed he was nervous and cared about the result, though his motive we wont know since we can't read a fictional characters mind

[Libaax]

Download the damn part of the manga again!


Its very fresh in my mind since i read that part again on weeks ago.


He thought in his mind what would happen if he did this move and that, he realised doing the move he did would prolly kill Guts if he did it right and won the exchange but he decided he didnt care about that, he wanted to kill him and win the duel rather letting him go.





EnglishJim:

The big diffrence beteween them is that Guts let his friendship with the hawks change him for the better.

[Istvan]

He thought in his mind what would happen if he did this move and that, he realised doing the move he did would prolly kill Guts if he did it right and won the exchange but he decided he didnt care about that, he wanted to kill him and win the duel rather letting him go.

Correct me if I'm wrong (I don't have the manga on hand at the moment) but I seemed to recall that Griffith was thinking that if he used the move he was thinking of, and he slipped even a little, Guts would die. Then he decided that the risk was worth it, since it was the only way to keep Guts, and even if Guts died that was better then letting him go. I agree that's very cold blooded, and somewhat nasty of him, but it's not quite the same as deciding going into the duel that he would kill him to win. Rather, he wanted to keep Guts alive and with him, and the only method he could see to do this involved a high risk to Guts life. While he was willing to accept this, he still prefered to keep Guts alive. The difference is only one of degree, but I think it's important nonetheless.

On an earlier note, I'll agree that many of Griffith's plan's depended on Guts, but I'm not sure how much we can say from this. It's the mark of any good tactician to form strategies based around the resources they have. Since he had a warrior like Guts, of course his plans made heavy use of him. That doesn't mean that he couldn't have formed different plans to still win all the various battles without Guts. Maybe not, also, it's hard to say, but because it's so hard to say, I don't like making to firm a ruling on just how crucial Guts was to Griffith's success.

[EnglishJim]

On an earlier note, I'll agree that many of Griffith's plan's depended on Guts, but I'm not sure how much we can say from this. It's the mark of any good tactician to form strategies based around the resources they have. Since he had a warrior like Guts, of course his plans made heavy use of him. That doesn't mean that he couldn't have formed different plans to still win all the various battles without Guts. Maybe not, also, it's hard to say, but because it's so hard to say, I don't like making to firm a ruling on just how crucial Guts was to Griffith's success.

You're right in that respect, but the comment I made was more about the emotional ties, i.e. their friendship and how it led to Griffith's downfall when Guts left.

I'll agree that Griffith was a superb tactition, how can I not? This is going to sound corny, but Guts was the greatest (human) warrior of any kingdom, not just Midland and he proved that when he defeated Boscone. He's irreplaceable, so who would Griffith move in to fill Guts' role in the Hawks? Yes, he could use other ways to win the various battles, but there are too many times when I thought, "If Guts hadn't have been there, Griffith would've died". I'm not trying to downplay Griffith's abilities, but I truly don't think he would've got as far.

[Istvan]

You may even be correct, as I said, it's hard to know. I just don't like making too many assumptions on what Griffith couldn't have done under different circumstances. Griffith was very good at tactics (supposedly the best of the age), so I don't like to undermine him. On the other hand, it's clear that Guts was incredibly useful to him. That's why I don't like making hard and fast predictions, because it's just impossible to say what would have happened.

[Libaax]

The important thing isnt what would happen in the exchange it what he thought he had to do even IF it killed Guts. He knew it would kill Guts if he won the exchange. The lack of care for Guts life is the disgusting part to me.

His tactic mind knew the outcome of the exchange if he won it.




About Guts importantness to Griffith, everyone even Griffith himself knew without the raid leader and his enourmuos skill he wouldnt have won the battles he won and the fame ge got so fast. It would take many years for his goals to come true without Guts.


I agree completly with englisjim it where many times Guts strenght won the battles easy also seeing him made the others much more confident and the enemy moral went down fast seeing their strongest units get trashed by Guts.



Also i think Griffith tactic mind was alot more important tool for them when Guts joined them and until he became 18 and uber strong. Cause when Guts wasnt as strong and skill as when he was 18 in the 100 year war, Griffith mind saved them alot of times.

Later his plan was like let Guts and his unit destory the strongest units of the enemy and then let the army feed on the enemy while they were in shock of Guts strenght.

[EnglishJim]

Yep. After the jump forward in the story we see Guts charging into enemy cavalry alone! He definitely turned into (even more of) a super soldier in those three years. Griffith tells him afterwards that he makes his plans with Guts' tendencies in mind, whereas later on he seems to build his plans around Guts. You can tell Griffith has complete trust in him and Yurius' assassination is the perfect example - someone like Judeau would've been much better suited.

[Romanos]

A chapter is finally going to be released.. I just hope it wont take a month for the next chapter, if a new chapter is being released every week Ill be thrilled and it would be the best year ever

[Albator]

It will take at least 4 months to the next chapter, because Miura needs to undergo reconstructive heart surgery. At his home, because he can't be moved.

[Istvan]

The important thing isnt what would happen in the exchange it what he thought he had to do even IF it killed Guts. He knew it would kill Guts if he won the exchange. The lack of care for Guts life is the disgusting part to me.

He knew Guts might die, if he made even the slightest slip, which is not quite the same thing.

It will take at least 4 months to the next chapter, because Miura needs to undergo reconstructive heart surgery. At his home, because he can't be moved.

Don't you start. One rumor like that is quite enough, thank you.

[Muk]

Huh Huh, so we can expect a chapter soon?

and what about all these rumor stuff O.o