Evil Genius

then the kushan army will know it and griffith will take credit for ridding the kushan threat from their homeland. Griffith is too good of a tactician to let Guts get the credit heh. even though guts technically killed the kushan emperor, Zodd helped, and Griffith will almost certainly get the credit for saving the city.

Hm? The Emperor isn't dead. Zodd helped destroy mist, is all.

There are limits to what a good tactician can do. If people see Gutts killing the Emperor, and if people know Griffith was in a whole 'nother place when it happened, there is nothing Griffith can do to change that (short of erasing their memories).

That reminds me, I assume some people actually see the battles, they don't care if flying monsters is what save them!? What do they think the commander of such abominations is, or want?

Albator wrote:That reminds me, I assume some people actually see the battles, they don't care if flying monsters is what save them!? What do they think the commander of such abominations is, or want?

Well, people will associate Griffith with the White hawk and then extrapolate from there and say the monsters are "angels" sent from above to save them from the evil Kushans.

Think back to that fight between Mozgus and Guts and how everyone that that Mozgus was an angel even after he transformed into his less than angelic looking form.

why can't Ganishka be the black hawk? everyone has been so focused on a Griffith vs Guts theme that the manga had that the idea of Ganishka being the black hawk seemed to slip through the cracks. the path that this manga may take may actually be guts forgetting his path to fight griffith and follow a pursuit to heal and stay with casca. the fact that he gave up even pursuing griffith or seeing him in this last chapter shows how much he has improved and gained towards realising the goal. part of the reason why i think Muira may have decided to remove the "Lost Chapter" could be he decided that Idea wasn't necessarily one of Evil...

but who witnessed guts "killing" the emperor? if anything they would have seen griffith's "angel" Zodd who is much bigger, or even assume that there is some holy knight of griffith's on Zodd's back.

You forget that the Black Swordsman is famous in his own right. He killed like 20 possessed giant tigers in front of a large group of nobles, kings and knights. That at least counts for something.

that is true. i guess ill step back a lil. while there is a chance guts could take credit, i highly doubt that griffith would sit there idly

His only real strenght when he was human was to manipulate people and situations so he surely wont let anyone else take the credit for "his" victory.

Besides Guts would prefere an underdog role i'd think

Libaax wrote:His only real strenght when he was human was to manipulate people and situations so he surely wont let anyone else take the credit for "his" victory.

I disagree. While still human, Griffith was brilliant tactician and second best swordsman in the Hawks. And he was way more decent than any aristocrat. Think about that. He basically won 100-year war in only 2 years or so, and he was "rewarded" with a year of inhumane torture.

He was good tactician yes but his strengt was manipulation.



About the war we all know it was Guts and his raider men that did the most of the winning.


He did manipulate Guts into joining Hawks knowing his potential and Guts was important winning 100 year war.

We can't really say that Guts and the raiders were mostly responsible for winning the hundred years war. They certainly played their part but who can say how much everyone else contributed? After all Miura did skip three years of the war before picking it back up around the time of the Hawks first meeting with Zodd. Who knows what could've happened during that time? Let's also not forget that the Hawks had no problem winning the battle in that field where Guts and Caska fell and had their heart to heart. Not to mention Caska's conquering Dordorei castle which was crucial to ending the war. There's also something else everyone is forgetting. Remember that knight Guts met while they were trying to reach the boat? He recognized Guts as the leader of the Raiders and he's totally unaware of the current conflict between Guts and Griffith. If he survived the kusharn attack, having witnessed Guts in the city and then seeing the kusharn retreat just as the Hawks arrive, how do we know he won't link the two events together and start spreading rumors of the return of the Raiders' Commnander to the Hawks? I don't think Griffith would likely correct him.

He was probably passed out during most of the fight lol. though he may have been knocked out sometime during it

its true that Griffith is a great tactician but remember how the ended in Doldrey (sp?) Griffith tactic for that battle was let Gatts kill all the enemies ( including the most powerful warrior of the Chudah ( sp?) empire ), was Gatts who won that war ( well that gay bastard Genom , had some fault in that defeat ) .

Yes, but a good tactician will base his strategy around his resources. In that case, his strategy revolved around Guts killing the enemy general, Caska taking the enemy castle, and the enemy governor being a complete idiot. If the circumstances had been different, that doesn't mean he would have lost, just that he would probably have formed a different strategy. You can't assume that because Guts was crucial to many victories that Griffith couldn't have succeeded without Guts, especially when the role that Guts played in those victories was planned by Griffith. If Guts hadn't been around, he'd just have made different plans.

agree with that , but at first Griffith were the strongest warrior of the hawks but when Gatts came Grffiths uses the tremendous power of Gatts to achieve his plans , i think that the band of the hawks just can't succed like they do without Gatts help that's all .

Back in the "golden age", Griffith was a genius tactician, a great swordmaster (#1 in the band until Guts beat him), a very skillful diplomat, a true leader and much more. One of his key virtues to get the most lucrative way of any situation, as it could be demonstrated with Genon, the Princess and with Guts.

Guts, however, seemed to be different. Somehow, Griffith might had seen him as a friend, maybe almost as an equal - something he didn't see in nobody. As we should remember in his dialogue with Princess Charlotte, 'a friend is someone who is equal, the band of the hawk are my way to achieve my dreams' - I think it was something like that.

Anyways, what kind of master tactician would NOT use the power of Guts if he could have him on his side? Even without Guts, Griffith would continue to fight for his own kingdom, and most probably would get there. It would only take more time.

Still, there was something different here...

"I want you Guts... I want you!"

...Something he never said to anyone.

Dont hate just cause griffith stopped taking levels in fighter. i bet he built up some mad diplomacy skill points though

I'm new here, but just wanted to comment on something.

I keep seeing people say that Griffith was second to Guts in swordsmanship. Personnally, I do not feel this is the case. Yes, Guts beat Griffith in the duel when he was leaving, but look at the situation. Guts really brought no emotions to the duel, he even thought that he was unusally calm. Griffith on the other hand, was filled with emotion, which would hamper his ability to concentrate on the task at hand.

While Guts is a great swordsman, his basic strategy is to swing a bigass sword as hard as he can and it will kill anything in the way. I think Griffith was much more skilled at swordplay than Guts, he was just distracted and not at his best.

Just my view on the subject, disagree as you will.

I think thats true for the starter Guts. After Guts fought Zodd and found out that there are more stronger enemies than just the humans he fought he started really honing his skills. He started training the sword strikes so that he could fight with one hand only. Even Zodd commented (in their first duel) that he thought Guts was going to rely on the length of the blade. But I think after that duel, he started really training his techniques to not have to just rely on the length of the blade. (heehee I just watched the Zodd episodes again so I'm all gung ho ^_^)

Actually, Griffith was at his best at their final duel...well rested, calmly rational, he could even contemplate his tactic and all possible outcomes...but he underestimated Guts nevertheless

Actually, Griffith was at his best at their final duel...well rested, calmly rational, he could even contemplate his tactic and all possible outcomes...but he underestimated Guts nevertheless

Not really surprising that he (slightly) underestimated Guts, since he'd never lost a fight in his life up to that point. I don't think the possibility that he'd loose ever really occured to him. He was confident that he could, as always, win the fight.

I gotta say. I wouldn't want to be in a fight against Guts or Griffith, but i think i might last a very small fraction of a second longer against Griffith (not that i'd last much longer than a fraction of a second against either.)
They both use the Weapon that suits them better. Griffith the small, sharp strategist uses a light rapier, while the agile monster Guts uses a monster of a sword. That being said, i believe Guts is more effective with his weapon of choice than griffith is with his, and over all, more effective in battle. When they first met Zodd, griffith was down after 1 hit, Guts got up a few times. When Guts fought 100 men, his thick skin held him together despite all his wounds, and his sword, despite becoming dull could still break backs on contact. Finally, as for pure swordsmanship, Guts should not be underestimated. Time and time again, his swordplay has been tested and he's always come through.
Maybe if Guts used the same small sword as griffith and they fought, Griffith would come out on top, but with the dragon slayer, or even Guts' old sword, and his versatility, Guts is the superior weapon.

tsk tsk

remember what a massacre Guts made during the eclipse without a huge (or any) sword

Griffith wouldn't have come through unarmed, without a sword he would be just a weenie

Not true. Griffith was quite aware that he could lose. He even shot to kill, while Gutts didn't. I suppose the possibility hadn't hit home, though.

actually, his aim was to wound him, and knew that if Gutts reacted in the wrong way his move could easily become fatal

at least that is the way I remember the anime