Berserk Chapter: 277

Post by **MrFelony** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:10 pm

actually i think it was all Idea's doing

. whether or not Zodd was interested in once more sparing with guts or saving the future god hand, Idea instilled Zodd with a love of battle which guided his path so that he would be watching the battle and have the oportunity to save both Guts and the future godhand.

Post by **Istvan** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:57 pm

In my opinion, Gatts is something "amusing" to the God Hand and the apostles, but Zodd sees something else. He knows that someone like him cannot be their downfall, but he could be quite the rock in their shoes. And there's some respect for him. He'll only kill him in a fair fight.

Gatts, on the other hand...I think Gatts would kill Zodd if he didn't need him. Yeah, sword on the neck and stuff. Gatts is a more pratical / less honored fighter. He knows his adversaries are demons, he can't really give them a chance. So, if the situation comes, where Zodd is hurt on the ground, and Gatts is with the Dragon Slayer in hand, and he has a chance to kill him...he'll kill him. Quickly.

I don't know, Gatts hates Apostles too much. Even Zodd.

I agree completely. Amoung other things, I think that Zodd loves fighting too much to be willing to kill Guts when Guts wasn't at his best. He'd want Guts to give him a good fight (as the strongest human Zodd has ever met) and I doubt anything short of a direct order from Griffith could cause him to kill Guts when he was injured. On the other hand, just look at this last chapter, when Guts is strongly tempted to just cut off Zodds head as he's on his back, and only holds off to defeat the Emperor. I don't think Guts hates Zodd as much as he does other Apostles, but he still wants to kill him, and I don't think he much cares how he does it. For him the important thing is that the Apostles (and especially Griffith) all die, not how it is accomplished.

Post by **Orthanos** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:15 pm

Why would Zodd admire Gatts?

1) Gatts at the hill of swords bested Zodds human form.

2) Gatts is the raw poteintal of human limites (Rare breed of warrior).

3) He is very much like Grifith and Zodd, having and unatainable or near impossible goals.

Now the battle so far.

Gatts got his armor punchered when that whale monster tried to eat him, it was near the cheast, Gatts moved the main mast of a ship to save his companions, Landed form a really high hight and walked from it, BBQ himself to kill that water serpent, he ate 2 full lighting bolts and continued eating them while on Zodds back, and now you seen them crash and skip along the water to the shore where he may have gained more injuries.

Gatts is sure tough but, i think that he is driving himself to his death, Sheirke is Gatts opposite and tries to balace the Endurence of Gatts physical structure vs survivial of the encounters.

Gatts is pretty much beat and needs some R&R, Zodd being the apostile that he is sees this one mans individual efferts as being still human to be remarkable if not spatacular.

Zodd said it him self, that he hardly ever finds a perrson built as Gatts is meaning that Zodd sees Gatts as a repusentive for the humans and there hope of living.

And about the importance about Gatts sword.

The dragon slayer was designed to kill dragons, Goto reenforced his sword with Goto's life and his wish. Goto understood what Gatts was possibly facing and wants Gatts to live.

The dragon slayer was able to send the Whore of the God Hand out of a the reach of humans. Back to thier home in the Vortex Demension. (see Berserk univers http://skullknight.net/encyclopedia/universe/)

Sheirke said that they were High Spiritual Beeings. SK said that it is specized to killing pharanormal enties.

Gatts alread knew that his Sword wasnt ordinary. Zodd told him at the hill of swords that he used "That demonic blade fittingly." So that indicate that Zodd himself knew the importance of the blade but was sure as to where it would be implied in.

i am sorry for the long post, It is my first post and i am a huge Berserk fan.

i tried to divide it best i could.

Post by **Orthanos** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:25 pm

sorry back to Gatts sword.

In Flora's mannor, Gatts was able to crack Crudundum. Crudundum is the seccond hardest matiral on Earth. So what is the Dragon slayer really made out of???

is it a composited of diamond like materials??? or is it someing more or out of the bounds of reasoning.

lol just for laugh lets say it was made form unkown material like a meteriod

Post by **TheDrizzit** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:47 pm

Yea....he even said it. ^_^ Not FEMTO specifically but that it was the egg of the king and that Guts life would suck if he stayed with him.

--EDIT: Lots of posts between me typing this but this is in reference to the Zodd knowing griffith thing...for the ones who lack common sense.

Post by **MrFelony** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:07 am

dude its like +5 from all the demon souls Guts has sacrificed to it. nothing can scratch a +5 sword...nothing...

seriously though, remember when Guts brought the sword back to Gato and he spent the rest of his energy repairing the sword as his life's last work.

Post by **NoX** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:34 am

Dragon Slayer designed for killing dragons...I can't remember any place in all berserk manga where Guts fought agains a dragon except Grunbeld in apostle form, just nonsence, but still the Dragon Slayer is an unusual sword.

Post by **Libaax** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:08 am

I think its was more of methapore like this is a sword that is so powerful that it could kill a dragon. Not that there are actually dragons in thier world.

Post by **MrFelony** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:01 pm

well Gato was chased out of the kingdom and almost hanged for making it...so i'm assuming it was possibly used...i would have liked to know more about that story. just doesn't seem right to leave it so mysterious

Post by **Skullkracker** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:29 pm

among my first posts were some speculations about it, but noone really cared, and we couldn't clear up much of the fog anyway

hell, that was way back...

...whan I was still writing long posts and whole sentences

this forum does change people

Post by **Starnum** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:02 pm

Libaax wrote:I think its was more of methapore like this is a sword that is so powerful that it could kill a dragon. Not that there are actually dragons in thier world.

Yes, it was just a freaking metaphor. I've explained this like a hundred times.

"It was called the dragon because no human hands could wield it."

Since none of the knights could use it, this is why Goto was banished from the kingdom, for making a mockery of them. That's all there is to it. There is no great mysterious back-story to the sword that has yet to be told.

Volume 14, Chapter 3, page 19

Post by **Jon Maitreya** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:55 pm

Starnum wrote:Yes, it was just a freaking metaphor. I've explained this like a hundred times.

"It was called the dragon because no human hands could wield it."

Since none of the knights could use it, this is why Goto was banished from the kingdom, for making a mockery of them. That's all there is to it. There is no great mysterious back-story to the sword that has yet to be told.

Volume 14, Chapter 3, page 19

If that's true, what's up with the chapter where it's introduced where Godo actually talks about it being used to kill a dragon? Was that all metaphorical or just Godo pissing aroudn trying to scare Rickert? *shrug* oh well, I don't really care.

Post by **absofflab** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:07 pm

Unless my copy of Vol. 14 was drastically different in translation, I don't think that it was a metaphorical dragon slayer, but a genuine one. My understanding was that Goto not only forged the Dragon Slayer but also killed the dragon. The reason he was almost hung for it was probably because he showed up all the knights with his action rather than having simply forged something that most people couldn't reasonably wield. Remember how nobles typically reacted to Griffith's victories and ascension in earlier volumes? I'm pretty sure that Goto's near hanging was the same thing. And if you looked at the man, even with his advanced age, he was still a very well-muscled, very powerful man. I'm willing to believe that when he was in his prime, he was comparable to Guts in power.

There are other things that make me think that the dragon was real. First, as Goto's talking to Rickert and Erika, there's a graphic of the dragon's head slit apart from mouth to neck with the sword implanted in the ground in front of the sundered head. As he's recounting the past, he also seemed to show a great deal of insight regarding the mechanics of killing dragons. But then Goto expressly tells Rickert to ask nothing else aobut the dragon - trying to avoid a terrifying memory, perchance? Or avoid frightening Erika? Then, finally, when the ugly crawling Apostle shows up, Goto was just surprised at its appearance and unsure as to what exactly it was - he didn't express shock the way someone would in the face of something that was thought to be utterly impossible. Remember Guts' first reaction to Zodd's minotaur form, or Rickerts' reaction to his first encounter with the Count? They were utterly frozen, shut down by the sheer insanity of their notions of physical possilities being forever shattered. But with each successive encounter, the apparent shock expressed by either of them lessened. And that was the reaction that Goto had to the crawling Apostle - he was seeing an unexpected event, but not something utterly unthinkable. Maybe he's just utterly unflappable, but it seemed more to that he'd experienced something similarly fantastic before. He very likely killed a dragon.

As to dragons not existing - who's to say that the dragon wasn't an Apostle? Even if there were a long period of time in which the Church's influence managed to prevent people from experiencing inherently magical creatures prior to Femto's birth/Griffiths' re-rebirth, Apostles were still running around. And given that their monster forms could have been previously-unimagined combinations of animals or iconic monster types, an Apostle might have been reborn in the form of a dragon.

Post by **Lord Rae** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:16 pm

yeah if it was a metaphor I'm confused as to why they'd show a dragon sliced in half... or why Godo would comment on him not wanting Guts to go off chasing dragons and getting the dragons angry with him as well.

looking in volume 14 godo says "don't ask about the dragon" (the page before shows it dead and split by the dragonslayer....

then he prattles on about how it calls to you and you just have to give it a shot. He says not to mention the sword to Guts or he'd "Snatch it up and go chasing after dragons and he's already got too many enemies for his own good and if a dragon was felled by human hands he'd have the dragons after him to"...

roughly thats what was said.

I don't think the death of the dragon gives it its power (the random sword tossed to Guts by Sk right after the eclipse and all that can harm ghosts)... Its probably a combination of the wielder (since he exists on the fringes of reality anything he's holding takes on those qualities and thats been shown somewhat with people many times) and the fact that its cut through so much that its become magic in and of itself.

**edit damn you were faster than me**

Post by **Istvan** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:06 am

then he prattles on about how it calls to you and you just have to give it a shot. He says not to mention the sword to Guts or he'd "Snatch it up and go chasing after dragons and he's already got too many enemies for his own good and if a dragon was felled by human hands he'd have the dragons after him to"...

roughly thats what was said.

I'm pretty sure that Godo was also speaking metaphorically here, saying basically that with a weapon such as that, Guts would seek enemies on scale with it, and that would get him into trouble. He didn't know that Guts was already being faced with those who are on scale with that sword (a.k.a. the Apostles) so he was just trying to keep Guts out of trouble in general, not over a specific danger.

Post by **Orthanos** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:12 am

I wasnt trying to say that the dragon slayer was made for slaying dragons i was wondering, Just what his sword was composed of....I know that it was a metaphor, I wanted an idea to what it was made from. Corundum (spelled it right this time) if you look it up is the second hardest material on Earth next to Diamonds.

the Ideal about his sword was that it was able to crack this hard mateial. It had nothing to do with that swords title.

unless i am missinterperiting things, huh pls tell me and your thoughts.

Post by **Orthanos** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:29 am

v14 c93, Shows a dragon's head split it two.

Though this image might of been used to be used metaphoricly, whose to say that such creatures don't exist in the universe of Berserk. Trolls, Orges, Evil Spirits, Posessed entities, elves, and lots more freaky stuff exist in this world that gatts lives in.

i dont say or think it wrong for anyone to voice an opinion that can neither be proven or hyphothisise to be correct or incorect. All speculations are inbound when concerning about the blades history. Miura is the only one who would know. And no one is wrong or right. Stories are there to entertain us. How one sees it doesnt matter to the other.

I just would like to know your guys ideas on on the compisition of "The Dragon Slayer"

Post by **TheDrizzit** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:42 am

Holy shit, I was looking through my Japanese vol. 14 looking for that picture and I found the berserk Prototype in the back! ^_^ Sweet...I had no idea it was there...bwahahahahaha

Post by **absofflab** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:14 am

I'm pretty sure that the physical form of the Dragon Slayer is made of iron. Various characters have noted its appearance to be like a heap of iron in the first few stories, and Goto himself called it a lump of iron (when he's telling Rickert and Erika about the sword).

The main thing (aside from the sword being impossibly huge) that makes the sword so powerful might be that the sword was forged from metal taken from the elven mine - it could've been enchanted in the first place. That could explain why the sword was especially fatal to Apostles from the beginning; the sword may have been ready-made to cut through both the physical and the supernatural right from the start. I wonder too if the elven mine might be why Goto was inspired to make such a unique sword in the first place.

Post by **psi29a** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:47 am

It was discussed in the Berserk storyline that Guts has swong and killed so many people & apostles that his sword has taken on the attributes of the Astral World.

That isn't speculation, that is from the storyline.

Post by **Eldo** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:04 am

Orthanos wrote:v14 c93, Shows a dragon's head split it two.

Though this image might of been used to be used metaphoricly, whose to say that such creatures don't exist in the universe of Berserk.

Yeah, it seems like it was used metaphorically, the dialogue never said that a dragon was ever slain using the dragonslayer, it was more 'So I forged a sword that could slay a dragon' or something along those lines.

Post by **Jon Maitreya** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:01 pm

Eldo wrote:Yeah, it seems like it was used metaphorically, the dialogue never said that a dragon was ever slain using the dragonslayer, it was more 'So I forged a sword that could slay a dragon' or something along those lines.

Well i don't know if it was a gross mistranslation, but in the scan of Vol 14 I have (vol 14 hasn't been released in english yet), Godo says: "I forged this [the Dragon Slayer] and the Dragon was slain, I don't know how but it was slain. by my sword." there are other bits like "Anytihng regaridng that dragon i refuse to discuss" and "To be able to kill such a fearsome beast as a dragon... one almost just has to test it." And fo course, of Guts "If a Dragon fell by his blade then he'd have the dragons after him as well."

I don't really know or care whether it was metaphorical, but those sound like literal references. The only one that, to me, indicates it migth be metaphorical is that i fail to see how a King becoming sick would need a sword to kill dragons =P.

As for the dragon being an Apostle, did no one see Grunbeld or what? He actually calls himself a fire dragon =P

Post by **Lord Rae** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:01 pm

apparently it depends on the translation...

The volume 14 I have says on that panel (and a little on the one before the image of the dragon dead):

"and so I forged this. Don't ask how..."

"But the dragon was killed... by my sword.

Rickert: "A-And?"

Goto: "Then they almost hung me."

so this issue is likely more one of translation and impressions.

Post by **psi29a** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:29 pm

Guess we will all have to wait with baited breath for the DH release of volume 14.

Remember to take all fan translations with a grain of salt (even thought Mystic is pretty damn good and I would trust his over anything DH came up with), Miura in the end signed off on DH's translations.

Post by **Eldo** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:38 pm

Jon Maitreya wrote:
Eldo wrote:Yeah, it seems like it was used metaphorically, the dialogue never said that a dragon was ever slain using the dragonslayer, it was more 'So I forged a sword that could slay a dragon' or something along those lines.
Well i don't know if it was a gross mistranslation, but in the scan of Vol 14 I have (vol 14 hasn't been released in english yet), Godo says: "I forged this [the Dragon Slayer] and the Dragon was slain, I don't know how but it was slain. by my sword." there are other bits like "Anytihng regaridng that dragon i refuse to discuss" and "To be able to kill such a fearsome beast as a dragon... one almost just has to test it." And fo course, of Guts "If a Dragon fell by his blade then he'd have the dragons after him as well."

We have noticed some translation errors in those scanlations before, and I think this may be one of them, the meaning was lost when it got translated. Since it could contain several different contexts, the translator took one stab in the dark and took one that may be incorrect. I do understand how people could get mislead by this. But it seemed to me that the actual meaning may be metaphorical. I'm not bagging the translator or anything, but this is just what I see.

In the scene where the dragon was slain, it's written 'It's a sword that could kill a dragon'. On the next page, Ricket asks Godo if it could really kill a dragon, Godo replies that 'If a dragon exists'. He also mentions that it's not really a sword if it can't be lifted, and it's meaningless. I guess we'll have to wait for the Dark Horse release to find out what it really is.