Newbie Berserk Discussion Thread

Post by **Gundam_Bobcat** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:08 am

The mental edge i was talking about, was the tactical mind that he has. During their second fight he planned ahead and brought them to the room full of pillars.

I don't disagree with you, Guts is by far more powerful than Serpico.

Serpico will most likely never be able to do as much damage as Guts can, and if he really did fight a strong apostle it would be an interesting battle.

As for their histories, Serpico had to burn his own mother to death. Both he and Guts haven't had the nicest lives, but saying that Serpico doesn't understand pain is an understatement.

Lastly I agree that it isn't Naruto, if the series turns into it I'm going to be pissed. The story has been to epic so far to turn into that.

Post by **Kshatriya** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:18 am

As was demonstrated in the most recent chapters, Serpico's fighting style and abilities complement Gutts very well. Granted, Gutts takes all the hits, all the risks, and is ultimately more skilled and more terrifying than Serpico. But they did fight as equals against this Hindu Sorcerer, at least at the end.

Meanwhile Ishidro and Farnese are combatively worthless. But that does not mean they won't become important to the story in other ways later on. Seemingly unimportant characters can develop over time to become important ones. And even though it's Berserk, there are ways for characters to have meaningful roles without being skilled fighters.

EDIT: After reading the last post: Was it Serpico that had to burn his mother, or Farnese? I had thought it was Farnese.

Post by **Gundam_Bobcat** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:41 am

I went a double checked, Serpico had to burn his mother, to prove to everyone that one she "wasn't" his mother, and also that he wasn't also a heretic.

Ishidro, one day could become a great fighter. However he is hot headed and if it wasn't for Guts he would of died a long time ago. That one day, is very far off and thats if he lives to become an adult.

Farnese is useless in a fight, the only thing that she is good for is Caska control.

You do have a point, there is no way to tell a story without something to compare the main character to, both in a fight and emotionally. Just image how the manga would be without those other characters, Guts probably wouldn't of ever made it the ship that is taking him to Elfhiem.

Post by **Libaax** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:15 am

First of all mental edge i thought you meant who was stronger mentallay not tacticly. Even though Guts showed twice against serpico fighting smart wont help you cause Guts is used to using his head against the apostles who he couldnt just overpower like he did versus Serpico.

Also the pain thing about Guts had nothing to do with Serpico, just said its understanding Guts liked getting hurt early in the manga cause Gambino beat the hell outta him when he was a kid.

Serpico fighting i would like if he didnt use some spirits, which is why i think he is more worthless now than before when he used his tactical mind but then he have some the skill but not the power. Thats the thing in berserk that makes Guts special. Cause we have seen alot of times, skill without strenght will get you killed fast in Berserk.

Thats why i think Serpico is as useless as Farnese cause against a strong apostles, wind elements wont help you. If it did taking down neo hawks and Griffith would be cakewalk for Guts.

Just what i think no idea what Miura is planning to do with Serpico, dump him or make him stronger without it becoming too magical or too shonen style strenght and skill growth thats the trick.

Post by **EnglishJim** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:20 pm

Serpico can never match Guts' strength, but now that he has the wind element on his side he can use his agility and cunning to his advantage. We've yet to see how effective the wind element can be against an apostle, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that he's useless in combat. Just because he's obtained magic doesn't mean he can't use tactics to best an opponent in battle.

That said, I don't believe he has a tactical edge over Guts. During their fight Serpico had a strategy that failed at all places. He targeted Guts' right arm to disable him, but Guts switched hands. He took Guts to a hall of pillars in the hope that Guts couldn't swing his sword, but he knocked them all down and when the roof finally collapsed, which Serpico had been waiting for, Guts used that to defeat him. In other words, Serpico's tactics were overcome by Guts' wits, there's no comparison in their abilities.

They do work well as a team though. It's funny, their partnership reminds me of the way Guts and Griffith used to fight together.

Post by **Gattsblackfalcon** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:47 pm

I agree with you EnglishJim.
Gatts and Serpico fight pretty well together, Gatts is a supersoldier ( in strenght and skills no human can match him ) .
Serpico does resembles Griffith .

Post by **Skullkracker** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:50 pm

nope...Griffith had guts
I mean he was ambitious, autonomous, while Serpicio is a lap dog

Post by **Gattsblackfalcon** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:12 pm

I mean his style of fighting .

But I'd to agree with you in that he is just a follower not a leader as Griffith.

Post by **Libaax** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:17 pm

I actually think Serpico is alot better than Griffith was as a human.

Serpico chooses to become a follower only to protect the one he loves.

Do you think mr i will rule the world would do that for anyone?

Post by **EnglishJim** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:29 pm

No. Griffith's never done anything for anyone other than himself. You could argue that he saved Guts once or twice, but then I'd say he did it because he needed Guts to achieve his dream.

It's true Serpico is a protector, but he lives only for Farnese. If she was to die in the coming chapters, what would he do then?

Post by **Gattsblackfalcon** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:31 pm

I don't know why but every time Serpico opens his eyes , he has that look.... ( the look that only a bad guy could have ) .

Post by **EnglishJim** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:33 pm

You mean...Like Griffith?

Post by **Gattsblackfalcon** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:36 pm

Hmm could be like Griffith , but I think is more like I hate this fucking world because I hate my life... look .

Post by **MrFelony** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:37 pm

griffith risked his life numerous times to save guts. guts was griffiths farnese, thats why he ended up hating guts, because he distracted him from his dream of attaining his kingdom, causing him to fail. Guts became more important to griffith than attaining his kingdom. thats why he constantly risked his life to save him. would he have done that for anyone else? possibly, but not to the extent he went to for guts. Griffith didnt really need guts to accomplish his dream. sure, it would have taken several more years to get to where he was, but he didnt need him. griffith almost died for guts, if he died, his dreams would have ended there. he needed to live a lot more than he needed guts to achieve his dream.

Post by **Libaax** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:38 pm

EnglishJim wrote:Serpico can never match Guts' strength, but now that he has the wind element on his side he can use his agility and cunning to his advantage. We've yet to see how effective the wind element can be against an apostle, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that he's useless in combat. Just because he's obtained magic doesn't mean he can't use tactics to best an opponent in battle.

That said, I don't believe he has a tactical edge over Guts. During their fight Serpico had a strategy that failed at all places. He targeted Guts' right arm to disable him, but Guts switched hands. He took Guts to a hall of pillars in the hope that Guts couldn't swing his sword, but he knocked them all down and when the roof finally collapsed, which Serpico had been waiting for, Guts used that to defeat him. In other words, Serpico's tactics were overcome by Guts' wits, there's no comparison in their abilities.

They do work well as a team though. It's funny, their partnership reminds me of the way Guts and Griffith used to fight together.

Word some think only cause Guts is a huge powerhouse he isnt smart too, he outsmarted Serpico atleast twice.

Griffith had alot better sword techs and tactical mind than Serpico though, i mean he even beat Guts.

Whats funny was though that Guts stood up to Zodd when they fought the first while Griffith was thrown away like he was nothing after a sec.

Post by **MrFelony** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:42 pm

actually griffith did manage to injure zodd, not sure if he cut anything off but he did do quite a bit of damage. but unlike guts, he didnt have the constitution to withstand more than one, at most two hits.

Post by **Gattsblackfalcon** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:44 pm

I think I had said this before , Gatts left Griffith behind right after he joined the Hawks, after their first fight , so Griffith never thought that that fight before Gatts leave the Hawks could have ended the way it did, I guess that was the reason of why Griffith acted the way he did after that.

Post by **Libaax** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:51 pm

MrFelony wrote:actually griffith did manage to injure zodd, not sure if he cut anything off but he did do quite a bit of damage. but unlike guts, he didnt have the constitution to withstand more than one, at most two hits.

Yeah he cut off Zodd arm but then he was thrown away like he was a puppy while Guts stood there and took the beating.

Must have been good for Guts growth to see that there are somethings normal skill cant handle.

Its wierd how strong Guts was even then, i mean he actually took some swings and showed his wits when he went for the speed and did cut into Zodd before Zodd sword got to him.

Post by **Kshatriya** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:14 pm

I don't think Griffith is a better swordfighter than Gutts. He may be a better leader, but don't forget, Gutts owned Griffith in a one-on-one encounter before he left the Hawks.

As for Griffith not needing Gutts, I think that's only partially true. I don't think Griffith had any unusual connection to Gutts - he only valued him as a fighting tool. Without Gutts, the Hawks wouldn't kill as many men, and it would take longer for Griffith to get what he wanted. Gutts often got into situations that required Griffith to save him, but Griffith only did so for the betterment of the Hawks. Gutts was a valuable soldier, and that's all. Remember that fountain scene at the ball? No Hawk - not even Gutts - could be his friend. They were all just a bunch of tools in his plan for world domination... or at least to get his own kingdom.

It's important to remember that during the majority of that Golden Age Arc, Griffith had a Behelit, but as far as I can tell, no knowledge of the God Hands or an Eclipse or Reincarnation Ceremony. He was trying to obtain his rank by climbing the social ladder... without any of the divine intervention.

Post by **MrFelony** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:23 pm

that is a good arguement, because we saw griffith began to do many things that would allow him to achieve his dream faster. many of these things he wouldnt have done before, like sleep with the baron, so it could have been a personality change, or it could have also been griffith thinking that he could handle all of these situations as well. however, i think it's just as valid as te argument that tehy were friends, because both are based on how you interpret the manga, and all interpretations are up to each individuals perspective.

Post by **Albator** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:25 pm

Guts was much more than a valuable soldier to Griffith. He was his reliable surrogate, somebody he came to admire and "clouded his own dream". If he was just a tool to him, he might have been disappointed but would have move on without doing any reckless moves.

Adn Griffith knew very well that Guts became more than a soldier, even valuable, to him. His attitude and demeanor, usually cold blooded, was an indication of what Guts represented to him.

Edit: I actually found the anime to be much more helping in this regard, compared to the manga. Maybe because of translation accuracy.

Post by **Libaax** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:30 pm

Kshatriya wrote:I don't think Griffith is a better swordfighter than Gutts. He may be a better leader, but don't forget, Gutts owned Griffith in a one-on-one encounter before he left the Hawks.

As for Griffith not needing Gutts, I think that's only partially true. I don't think Griffith had any unusual connection to Gutts - he only valued him as a fighting tool. Without Gutts, the Hawks wouldn't kill as many men, and it would take longer for Griffith to get what he wanted. Gutts often got into situations that required Griffith to save him, but Griffith only did so for the betterment of the Hawks. Gutts was a valuable soldier, and that's all. Remember that fountain scene at the ball? No Hawk - not even Gutts - could be his friend. They were all just a bunch of tools in his plan for world domination... or at least to get his own kingdom.

It's important to remember that during the majority of that Golden Age Arc, Griffith had a Behelit, but as far as I can tell, no knowledge of the God Hands or an Eclipse or Reincarnation Ceremony. He was trying to obtain his rank by climbing the social ladder... without any of the divine intervention.

Who said Griffith was better swordsman than Guts?

He never was even when he beat him, he beat him with his tactical mind cause the young Guts was too much of a rookie then.

Albator:

I have never seen the anime, dont care about translation accurracy, i trust words of Miura alot more than some animators

Post by **Albator** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:55 pm

As far as the manga is concerned, you are also trusting translator's interpretation, not Miura's words. This is important if you only look at internet's version (so if it's not already done, support Miura and buy the official version. Disclaimer: this is not directed to anybody in particular). So I would say trusting the animated translation and the paper version is more or less the same. Unless you are talking about an interview from Miura's? What I'm trying to say is, what you say doesn't really make sense to me. The anime is the official version, Miura got a hand in it and is also his words.

In this case this is almost a moot point. What tells you that Guts is more than a "valuable soldier" to Griffith is not necessarily his words, but mainly his acts. Do you think Griffith would have had this attitude if Judeau, Pippin, or even Caska left?

Post by **Skullkracker** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:07 pm

EnglishJim wrote:If she was to die in the coming chapters, what would he do then?

Grow a penis and buy some bitches

Post by **MrFelony** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:14 pm

my prediction is that casca won't want to stay with guts, guts will go crazy berserk, people will die, and guts will start chasing after griffith again.