Honourable Apostles

Post by **psi29a** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:22 pm

ThunderLudi wrote:what about the Leader of Black Dog Army? What was his name?

Wyld?

Post by **Gattsblackfalcon** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:45 pm

Wyld that damn were a bandit ( better called murderer) without any honor , and he never were a knight.

Post by **Istvan** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:36 am

Then why don't they? If the honor's fake, a part of their former lives, why not discard it altogether?

Partially, I suspect just out of habit. Many people, if they're used to acting a certain way, will keep acting that way (at least to an extent) even after they stop believing in it, just because that's what they were used to. The same is true for those Apostles who are in the habit of acting with honor. Thus Grunbeld at first objected that he was in a one on one fight with Guts, but when the other Apostles pointed out that they didn't have to follow such codes anymore, he didn't try to stop them. He objected more out of habit then beliefe (or so I assume). Also, as Khelegond pointed out, clinging to their humanity. When so much of who and what they were gets burned away, they might just (in some cases) take to clinging to the few parts of their old lives that they have left to them.

Post by **Phoenix** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:47 am

I think is a clinging sense of humanity - to some of them, at least. The behelit apostle was somewhat evil. It doesn't matter that you want a better world, you can't simply kill EVERYONE to do that. And he hated some of the townsfolk...so it was somewhat vengeance too.

Zodd, Grunbeld, Locus (sp?), and so...they're honorable somewhat. Why? Well, you don't simply become a demon and forgot your past - is still your soul inside the body. That's the reason why the count couldn't sacrifice his daughter, or why Roshinu (was that her name?) didn't kill Jill...Zodd had a code of honor while human, and retained it. I think thats a pretty valid assumption...

This transformation is never complete then. What the sacrifice is supposed to do is to completely cut you off from your humanity. If you still hold on to it, you're not a perfect demon.

Partially, I suspect just out of habit. Many people, if they're used to acting a certain way, will keep acting that way (at least to an extent) even after they stop believing in it, just because that's what they were used to. The same is true for those Apostles who are in the habit of acting with honor. Thus Grunbeld at first objected that he was in a one on one fight with Guts, but when the other Apostles pointed out that they didn't have to follow such codes anymore, he didn't try to stop them. He objected more out of habit then beliefe (or so I assume). Also, as Khelegond pointed out, clinging to their humanity. When so much of who and what they were gets burned away, they might just (in some cases) take to clinging to the few parts of their old lives that they have left to them.

Why still cling to your humanity? Do they miss it? These objections from their part seems like a human trait more than a demon one. The concept of honor is human. Hanging on to this honor is human. Why have they not let go of this? I wouldn't go as far as saying they'd do anything to get it all back, but do they regret what they've become?

Post by **psi29a** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:56 am

Why still cling to your humanity? Do they miss it? These objections from their part seems like a human trait more than a demon one. The concept of honor is human. Hanging on to this honor is human. Why have they not let go of this? I wouldn't go as far as saying they'd do anything to get it all back, but do they regret what they've become?

How can you (or anyone for that matter) possibly know what is a human trait and what is a demon trait?

You are being presumptious again.

Post by **Phoenix** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:10 pm

How can you (or anyone for that matter) possibly know what is a human trait and what is a demon trait?

See the God-Hand? Idea? The epitome of demonhood. Do they show these traits?

You are being presumptious again.

Am I? You should go with "closed-minded" or something similar next week or so, that's this year's hot button. Makes for a nice change of pace, too.

Post by **psi29a** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:51 pm

Its a work of fiction. Demonhood, work of fiction. God-hand, work of fiction.

'If you still hold on to it, you're not a perfect demon.' == Pure and complete bullshit and you know it because you (nor anyone else) has any idea what 'perfect' is. Always be careful when dealing with absolutes.

You test my patience so cut the crap, or you're out of here.

Post by **MrFelony** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:53 pm

To me it would make sense for them NOT to remain human. the whole reason why they become apostles is so they can stay alive or see their dreams come true, basically hold on to their humanity. while some of them do sort of become monsters, such as the giant snake apostle, they are most likely to remain similar to what they were when they were human. However, I believe a lot of their transformation depends on what happened before they became apostles.

Post by **Phoenix** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:28 pm

Its a work of fiction. Demonhood, work of fiction. God-hand, work of fiction.

Berserk = work of fiction. So it fits.

'If you still hold on to it, you're not a perfect demon.' == Pure and complete bullshit and you know it because you (nor anyone else) has any idea what 'perfect' is. Always be careful when dealing with absolutes.

An inference. Given the current evidence, we can infer honor is a human trait and not a demonic one. Hardly rocket science. Of course, you could say "that is a reasonable conclusion to draw given the evidence", but that seems somewhat of a pipe dream by now, doesn't it?

You test my patience so cut the crap, or you're out of here.

That'd be rule 63.5, hm? Testing an admin's patience, a bannable offense? My most heartfelt apologies.

To me it would make sense for them NOT to remain human. the whole reason why they become apostles is so they can stay alive or see their dreams come true, basically hold on to their humanity. while some of them do sort of become monsters, such as the giant snake apostle, they are most likely to remain similar to what they were when they were human. However, I believe a lot of their transformation depends on what happened before they became apostles.

Exactly. Some hold to parts of their humanity. Ironically enough, these are the most powerful ones.

Post by **MrFelony** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:28 pm

I dont really see it as ironic at all. they probably had the biggest dreams/goals as a human. look at griffith's dream pre-eclipse, where as the slug apostle, wyld, etc. they all just wanted to live, start over, or just be stronger. i dont doubt that the strength as an apostle correlates to strength and vision as a human. and just like power, it corrupts/twists some, where as others are able to retain their prior self. I dont understand why you think its weak to hold onto one's humanity. if anything Berserk shows is that the strongest are the ones who hold on to their humanity.

and you should make it a little more heartfelt than "That'd be rule 63.5, hm? Testing an admin's patience, a bannable offense? My most heartfelt apologies. " psi owns this place so don't patronize him

Post by **Phoenix** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:35 pm

I dont really see it as ironic at all. they probably had the biggest dreams/goals as a human. look at griffith's dream pre-eclipse, where as the slug apostle, wyld, etc. they all just wanted to live, start over, or just be stronger. i dont doubt that the strength as an apostle correlates to strength and vision as a human. and just like power, it corrupts/twists some, where as others are able to retain their prior self. I dont understand why you think its weak to hold onto one's humanity. if anything Berserk shows is that the strongest are the ones who hold on to their humanity.

Tell that to the God-Hand. No honor, no humanity. They're still the most powerful we have seen.

Dreams however, are not an entirely human trait, since Idea is also affected by these. So having a dream *could* make you more powerful (and probably does). I think that, for a demon, it's weak to hold on to their humanity because that's what, in the end, they sacrificed for their power, to make themselves stronger. How can something that tied you down make you stronger?

and you should make it a little more heartfelt than "That'd be rule 63.5, hm? Testing an admin's patience, a bannable offense? My most heartfelt apologies. " psi owns this place so don't patronize him, cause that's how it sounds to me Confused.

What am I supposed to do, grovel? I broke no rules, and he threatens me. I was planning on posting a link to the guidelines (which I realize are not set-in-stone rules), but I decided against it. I had to assume, too, that by "cut the crap", he meant "stop defending yourself".

I'm not even sure what he wants of me. I say something that isn't backed by literally mountains of proof, BAM, I'm on the spot.

Post by **MrFelony** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:55 pm

the main problem i think is that the way Psi sees it, in your arguments you are saying that some things are absolute, but the problem is you don't have mountains of proof to back up what you're saying. the problem is there AREN'T mountains of proof to back up a lot of theories about Berserk. so that when you're saying a bunch of stuff, i guess you come off as 100% sure without the credible evidence backing you up...I'm too lazy to really go see for myself.

and the way i see it, the Godhand aren't the epitome of demonhood, they are the epitome of humanity. Idea is the epitome of the evils of humanity. if anything, apostles and the God-Hand are just more attune to the evil aspects of humanity.

your question "Why still cling to your humanity?" in this perspective is asking for the wrong answer. "Why cling on to your previous life?" is the real question in my opinion. In the case of griffith he hadn't achieved his dream so he became a God-hand to complete it. in Wyld's case, he became an apostle to leave his old life behind and start over again with power he always dreamed for. some do it to attain their dream where as others do it to attain what they always dreamed for. be it power, revenge, a kingdom, or to become a fairy princess, becoming an apostle is just a tool to give them that dream. it doesnt matter what the dream/desire IS, it gives it to them. And i wouldnt really consider Zodd all that honorable....well atleast merciful

Post by **Phoenix** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:02 pm

the main problem i think is that the way Psi sees it, in your arguments you are saying that some things are absolute, but the problem is you don't have mountains of proof to back up what you're saying. the problem is there AREN'T mountains of proof to back up a lot of theories about Berserk. so that when you're saying a bunch of stuff, i guess you come off as 100% sure without the credible evidence backing you up...I'm too lazy to really go see for myself.

In which case, I'd disagree with the person and let them put the proof I believe to be faulty against others. Not threaten and insult him.

and the way i see it, the Godhand aren't the epitome of demonhood, they are the epitome of humanity. Idea is the epitome of the evils of humanity. if anything, apostles and the God-Hand are just more attune to the evil aspects of humanity.

If that's true, the word "demon" is really inconsequential. They're just buffed-up humans.

your question "Why still cling to your humanity?" in this perspective is asking for the wrong answer. "Why cling on to your previous life?" is the real question in my opinion. In the case of griffith he hadn't achieved his dream so he became a God-hand to complete it. in Wyld's case, he became an apostle to leave his old life behind and start over again with power he always dreamed for. some do it to attain their dream where as others do it to attain what they always dreamed for. be it power, revenge, a kingdom, or to become a fairy princess, becoming an apostle is just a tool to give them that dream. it doesnt matter what the dream/desire IS, it gives it to them. And i wouldnt really consider Zodd all that honorable....well atleast merciful Razz

That is true, but you forget what the God Hand said, the price you pay for this dream is your humanity. There's no going around this. They must sacrifice their humanity to become more than human.... fitting, if you think about it.

Post by **MrFelony** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:25 pm

the problem is that when you say something you SHOULD provide evidence backing it up (if it is necesarry) and not think that it is someone's elses job to prove you wrong...

I would probably go with a mixture i guess. they are humans who give up their old lives to achieve what they weren't able to.

Post by **Phoenix** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:29 pm

the problem is that when you say something you SHOULD provide evidence backing it up (if it is necesarry) and not think that it is someone's elses job to prove you wrong...

I *don't* think it's someone else's job. I inferred that, given the current evidence, honor is a human trait. He doesn't agree, so I'm presumptious. It's like I'm playing connect-the-dots, but I missed a line.

Do you believe that, in the world of Berserk, honor is a human or a demon trait?

I would probably go with a mixture i guess. they are humans who give up their old lives to achieve what they weren't able to.

That's the thing. They don't just give up their old lives, they give *everything* up but their desires (and dreams). The question is: why do some still hang on to these lost qualities if they willingly gave them up and no longer feel them?

Post by **MrFelony** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:36 pm

possibly because they were apart of their dream or desire. griffith desired to build up a kingdom, and i'm assuming that apart of that dream was to be a really awesome leader. a leader of the people, blah blah blah. so those are the traits he assumed for his role.

these are all answers we will never know

and arguing a moot point can annoy some people.

Post by **Phoenix** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:42 pm

possibly because they were apart of their dream or desire. griffith desired to build up a kingdom, and i'm assuming that apart of that dream was to be a really awesome leader. a leader of the people, blah blah blah. so those are the traits he assumed for his role.

Perhaps, but Idea pre-destined him for that. His traits are there because of Idea's manipulation.

these are all answers we will never know Confused and arguing a moot point can annoy some people.

A lot of things annoy me. If they're not harmful, there's no point to bite the head off the perpetrator. All I said was that honor was a human trait. I really fail to see how this could anger people. But alas, I'm no telepath.

Post by **Istvan** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:55 pm

If that's true, the word "demon" is really inconsequential. They're just buffed-up humans.

I think part of the problem here is your assumptions about the word "demon". From dictionary.com we get such things as

1. An evil supernatural being; a devil.
2. an evil spirit; devil or fiend.
4. a person considered extremely wicked, evil, or cruel.

None of these seem incompatable with any of the Apostles that we've seen. It's not as if the ecclipse totally erases they're personallity, and puts a new one in it's place, rather its that they give up certain portions of themselves, those being all (or at least most) of the parts that we would label "good." As such, I don't think any of the Apostles still really believe in honor, rather some of them go through the motions out of habit. Its like a person who was raised Christian and leaves home then continues going to church for quite a while, even though they have since become athiest, just because that's what they're used to. Humans are generally creatures of habit in many ways. So if we see an Apostle acting in a way we'd call "honorable" I'd guess it's more a matter of what they're used to acting like then any strong belief on their part. I also suspect that how complete your sacrifice is also has an influence here. You sacrifice those you care most for in the world, but if there are some you care just as much for but don't sacrifice (the slug count and the elf girl) then some feelings may be left.

Post by **stafilo** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:39 am

Hey we suddenly became philosophical... I kinda like that, 'cos one of the greatest things that got me attracted to Berserk was the way Miura deals with destiny and the supernatural.

I'd like to try to strengthen Eldo's posting:

D) The questions you ask make a guy's brain explode... author.

Please, let's not forget that this is a work done by a human, and it goes the way this human see fit. He chose his characters' behaviors according to a "reality" only he can conceive and we can just imagine. The coolest thing on being a writer is that you can play God

And one other thing: Did any of you guys know about the origins of the word 'demon'? Ancient greeks believed that some great men (their heros), if they could reach enough arete and timè (kind of honor and excellence they could become 'daymonions' (i think that's how it's written). A daymonion would act near the gods in favor of humans... It appears that during the Dark Age the word was degenerated...

Post by **Muddtoad** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:12 am

I inferred that, given the current evidence, honor is a human trait.

I fail to see any "evidence" showing that honor is a human trait. Demons while naturally evil, still can display honor, like any being. I'm guessing you don't believe in redemption or repenting? Do you believe something can change their ways and turn from being evil to good?

Post by **Starnum** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:46 am

While I pretty much agree with you, I'll add that necromancy isn't only a human trait either.

Post by **Lord Rae** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 6:21 pm

Also one thing that constantly bangs around in my head... why when mentioning other, ordinary apostles do we have people referring to the "Eclipse"... the eclipse as far as any of us know only occurs for God Hand members... specifically the ones we know of Void and Femto.

Sure there's a god hand visit whenever an apostle is born. However I don't think any sort of eclipse for normal apostles.

Post by **Albator** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:43 pm

Starnum wrote:While I pretty much agree with you, I'll add that necromancy isn't only a human trait either.

Not only that, but it is pretty obvious that demons can display honor. Not only do they have wings and a forked tail, and horns, but also honor. I mean, they are in our every day life, who didn't meet a demon with honor. However, only a person who has an accreditation in demonology could accurately enlighten us, not a necromancer.

Maybe some communists around here could enlighten us?

Post by **War Machine** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:54 pm

Remember how Mozgus became an "angel"? I believe Griffith turned his knights into demons the same way, no behelit required. Also, the count Guts fights in the first 3 volumes does retain some human emotions even though he is an apostole (mostly the love for his daughter), so it isn't impossible for Griffith's knights to also feel some guilt from time to time.

Post by **Eldo** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:05 pm

War Machine wrote:Remember how Mozgus became an "angel"? I believe Griffith turned his knights into demons the same way, no behelit required. Also, the count Guts fights in the first 3 volumes does retain some human emotions even though he is an apostole (mostly the love for his daughter), so it isn't impossible for Griffith's knights to also feel some guilt from time to time.

For Griffith turning knights to apostles in the same way as Mozgus, possibly not. It doesn't seem to have anything to suggest that at the moment. All of Griffith's army are a gathering of apostles.