Berserk, Causality, Idea of Evil, Essentialism and Chaos The

[psi29a]

Ah, my mistake. I apologize for that one.

Evolution happens between generations, then what came before the first chicken egg had to be a non-chicken. Thus the egg came first.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/05/26/chicken.egg/

Still, the problem was solved *grin*. Got me on that one, my apologies. My wife is laughing at me right now.

This seems to imply humans needed supernatural reasons for suffering. If this is true, what exactly does Idea do? Create apostles?

As for this bit, have you been following the story? Yes, that is exactly what it is doing, among other things. I'm not quite sure why this is hard to understand? Re-read the lost chapter.

Volume 13: Chapter 3.5 – God of the Abyss II

[Phoenix]

Evolution happens between generations, then what came before the first chicken egg had to be a non-chicken. Thus the egg came first.

Fair enough. Though I still argue that only a chicken may lay a chicken egg.

As for this bit, have you been following the story? Yes, that is exactly what it is doing, among other things. I'm not quite sure why this is hard to understand? Re-read the lost chapter.

Again, I was too unclear. I'll rephrase then. Is creating apostles and God Hand member the *only* think Idea does?

[Istvan]

Again, I was too unclear. I'll rephrase then. Is creating apostles and God Hand member the *only* think Idea does?

No. As psi29a said, go read the lost chapter. Idea is also manipulating events in many other ways, all the way to the genetic level. Apostles are just one of the ways that it manipulates events, albeit the most obvious. As to your arguments about people not knowing Idea exists, and there still being reasons without Idea, these are completely besides the point. Sure, there were reasons for bad things, by they were often reasons such as "Shit happens, you got unlucky. Too bad." but people want more then that. They want there to be a deeper reason, some higher plan that caused this suffering. The fact that no one knows about Idea is completely irelevent. It's job is simply to be the reason for all of the suffering and bad things that people endure, and it fulfills this purpose. It gives meaning to all the otherwise pointless suffering that people endure in their lives. Of course, it isn't a nice reason, but then, that's not what people wished for.

[Phoenix]

No. As psi29a said, go read the lost chapter. Idea is also manipulating events in many other ways, all the way to the genetic level. Apostles are just one of the ways that it manipulates events, albeit the most obvious. As to your arguments about people not knowing Idea exists, and there still being reasons without Idea, these are completely besides the point. Sure, there were reasons for bad things, by they were often reasons such as "Shit happens, you got unlucky. Too bad." but people want more then that. They want there to be a deeper reason, some higher plan that caused this suffering. The fact that no one knows about Idea is completely irelevent. It's job is simply to be the reason for all of the suffering and bad things that people endure, and it fulfills this purpose. It gives meaning to all the otherwise pointless suffering that people endure in their lives. Of course, it isn't a nice reason, but then, that's not what people wished for.

I'll quote, then, if you're so keen on this:

Humans
Desired reasons
Reasons for pain
Reasons for sadness
Reasons for life
Reasons for death
Reason why their lives were filled with suffering
Reasons why their deaths were absurd
They wanted reasons for the destiny that kept transcending their knowledge

Then you make no sense. Before, my reason for pain was that I stubbed my toe. Now, the reason for pain is that I stubbed my toe, except this time, God willed it so..... except I don't know this, and all I know is that I stubbed my toe.

Meaning nothing changed, since humans keep perceiving it the same way. You say people wanted more than this, but since they keep seeing the same "shit happens", what's the difference? It means that, aside from apostle-creating, Idea doesn't do crap, except add a supernatural allure to already existing reasons.

Where does it say Idea is the reason? As far as I can read, unless there's a translating error, Idea provides these, it itself isn't one.

[psi29a]

Volume 13: Chapter 3.5 – God of the Abyss II

[Phoenix]

http://skullknight.net/idea/ <--- does it go anything like this, pray tell?

[Starnum]

Yeah, except there are pictures! *gasp*

[Phoenix]

Still, I assume I've the right script?

[Istvan]

Then you make no sense. Before, my reason for pain was that I stubbed my toe. Now, the reason for pain is that I stubbed my toe, except this time, God willed it so..... except I don't know this, and all I know is that I stubbed my toe.

Meaning nothing changed, since humans keep perceiving it the same way. You say people wanted more than this, but since they keep seeing the same "shit happens", what's the difference? It means that, aside from apostle-creating, Idea doesn't do crap, except add a supernatural allure to already existing reasons.

Where does it say Idea is the reason? As far as I can read, unless there's a translating error, Idea provides these, it itself isn't one.

You're missing the point. Here's a hypothetical situation. Person A loses the love of their life. They then procede to cry in anguish, "Why God? Why did you have to kill him? He was a good person. Why did he have to die?" As you can perhaps see, in this scenario, Person A wants there to be a reason for their loves death, and they want it to be more then, "Because his horse slipped and he fell off and smashed his skull." That may be why he died, but Person A wants there to be more then that, wants there to be some grand cosmic plan that caused his death, because that would give meaning to the death. They ask to know what the reason was, but what they really want is for there to have been a reason, for that death to have been meaningful. Idea is there to provide that reason, in the Berserk world.

[Starnum]

Still, I assume I've the right script?

Um, that's why I said "Yeah", duh.

[Phoenix]

You're missing the point. Here's a hypothetical situation. Person A loses the love of their life. They then procede to cry in anguish, "Why God? Why did you have to kill him? He was a good person. Why did he have to die?" As you can perhaps see, in this scenario, Person A wants there to be a reason for their loves death, and they want it to be more then, "Because his horse slipped and he fell off and smashed his skull." That may be why he died, but Person A wants there to be more then that, wants there to be some grand cosmic plan that caused his death, because that would give meaning to the death. They ask to know what the reason was, but what they really want is for there to have been a reason, for that death to have been meaningful. Idea is there to provide that reason, in the Berserk world.

Oh very good, except people don't know about the existence of Idea, so they still whine about "why, why, why". So what difference is Idea making here to the people?

Um, that's why I said "Yeah", duh.

Why don't you just kill a man for confirmation?

[Khelegond]

Oh very good, except people don't know about the existence of Idea, so they still whine about "why, why, why". So what difference is Idea making here to the people?

No - Idea is there to provide US, the readers, with a reason. Everything is tied to it, in the end. Except maybe Gatts, but that is another discussion that I don't want to raise again...

Why don't you just kill a man for confirmation?

??? What the heck one thing has to do with another?

[Phoenix]

No - Idea is there to provide US, the readers, with a reason. Everything is tied to it, in the end. Except maybe Gatts, but that is another discussion that I don't want to raise again...

But US, the readers, weren't the ones clamouring for a reason, THEY, the inhabitants of the Berserk universe, were. So what difference did Idea make?

??? What the heck one thing has to do with another? Smile

Asking a question twice, just to be sure, it's evil, me thinks.

[Wandering_Mystic]

No - Idea is there to provide US, the readers, with a reason. Everything is tied to it, in the end. Except maybe Gatts, but that is another discussion that I don't want to raise again...

But US, the readers, weren't the ones clamouring for a reason, THEY, the inhabitants of the Berserk universe, were. So what difference did Idea make?

We are seeing the difference playing itself out in the story at this very time. With the advent of demon kind encroaching and materializing into the perceived world of the humans, people everywhere are getting a very real confirmation of what evil really is.

The point isn't whether the people understand what they have created with their whining, or that Idea should actually have a more direct effect on the general awareness of humans; rather, the point is that the people have done this UNconsciously, accessing a terrible power of creation and destruction they did not even know they possessed. It's not that they created Idea because they wanted a reason for their suffering, but rather they were suffering without understanding the reason (if there even was any), and in their suffering they created Idea, unknowingly, and therefore even less than forgotten, like a fart in your sleep.

[Phoenix]

We are seeing the difference playing itself out in the story at this very time. With the advent of demon kind encroaching and materializing into the perceived world of the humans, people everywhere are getting a very real confirmation of what evil really is.

So, like I asked, is creating apostles and god-hand members the only thing Idea can do?

The point isn't whether the people understand what they have created with their whining, or that Idea should actually have a more direct effect on the general awareness of humans; rather, the point is that the people have done this UNconsciously, accessing a terrible power of creation and destruction they did not even know they possessed. It's not that they created Idea because they wanted a reason for their suffering, but rather they were suffering without understanding the reason (if there even was any), and in their suffering they created Idea, unknowingly, and therefore even less than forgotten, like a fart in your sleep.

Idea said itself that it creates reasons. It's existence is not a reason to man, if Idea follows mankind's wishes. In order for it to be a reason, mankind must be aware of its existence, and it isn't. And the only reasons I see it create are his demons. Either that, or pre-Idea mankind were just emos, and Idea is creating legitimate reasons for emo-ism.[/i]

[Starnum]

Why don't you just kill a man for confirmation?

Don't tempt me.

Idea is like the hand of fate, he guides the flow of events in the world of Berserk. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about that.

[Phoenix]

Idea is like the hand of fate, he guides the flow of events in the world of Berserk. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about that.

Nothing really, since that's not the part I'm having trouble understanding. The part I'm having trouble with is that Idea makes no difference to man, since man would still desire reason, since these "accidents" that make men as "why" don't change.

Before: Accident on a horse, we cry.

Now: Accident on a horse (Idea meant it), we cry.


The fact that people don't know Idea exists is crucial, because it would mean Idea changed nothing.

[Istvan]

Oh very good, except people don't know about the existence of Idea, so they still whine about "why, why, why". So what difference is Idea making here to the people?

Before: Accident on a horse, we cry.

Now: Accident on a horse (Idea meant it), we cry.


The fact that people don't know Idea exists is crucial, because it would mean Idea changed nothing.

Nope. Idea changed a lot. First, Idea caused your second accident, that particular accident might not have occured without it. Second, although in my example the person cries out to know the reason, that isn't their biggest desire. Their biggest desire is that there be some higher reason, and plan, and higher being controlling all of this. Their crying out to know the reason all presuposes that those three things exhist, and that's what they really want. That life (and in particular their suffering) have meaning. Though they want to know the reason for the suffering, that is by far the lesser of the desires. Idea was created by their strongest desire, that there be a reason for the suffering. This is what Idea supplies.

[Phoenix]

Nope. Idea changed a lot. First, Idea caused your second accident, that particular accident might not have occured without it. Second, although in my example the person cries out to know the reason, that isn't their biggest desire. Their biggest desire is that there be some higher reason, and plan, and higher being controlling all of this. Their crying out to know the reason all presuposes that those three things exhist, and that's what they really want. That life (and in particular their suffering) have meaning. Though they want to know the reason for the suffering, that is by far the lesser of the desires. Idea was created by their strongest desire, that there be a reason for the suffering. This is what Idea supplies.

And I would have no problem with this, if Idea had said it itself was a reason, not that it provided reasons. Either there was a translation error, or it was speaking in plural, meaning it itself wasn't a reason.

And how would there be a change? Whether the person is aware of the Idea or not, nothing in his line of thought has changed. I would actually have no problem with this if the people knew Idea existed, as they have now a being to blame, this having their reasons. But, in their minds, nothing changed, so they still need a reason.

It seems to me, too, that Idea's concentrating more on causing suffering rather than providing reasons for it.

[MrFelony]

I'll take a stab at explaining it to you.

when something happens that may be a person's fault and they don't want to admit it, often times they resort to a lighting rod or a scapegoat to shift blame from themselves. In the example given, a person who loses their loved one in an accident often looks for a reason why. either someone to blame or some other reason to make it alright. Idea was created because many people feel that they need someone to blame for their pain and suffering. Idea is the scapegoat for people's pain and suffering. having something or someone to blame a problem on is much easier than blaming it on themselves.

Anyone in life can drastically change their life if they really wanted to, however, most people are unwilling to fight through the phase of unease and pain that it require to do so. changing oneself and growing as a person is a lifelong struggle that requires you to look deep inside yourself and is a rather uncomfortable, though rewarding process. however it is MUCH easier to just sit there idly blaming luck or god on your problems. that is what people do and that is why Idea was created, because millions of people in the Berserk manga needed something to blame their misery on besides themselves.'

The fact that people don't know Idea exists is crucial, because it would mean Idea changed nothing.

what you have wrong here is the fact that Idea exits is not crucial, because people would believe in him with or without his existence. I think it was Voltaire who came up with this concept but I could be wrong. Even if God (in our world) did not exist, man would still create him because Humanity needs a god. something to explain the unexplainable.

It doesn't really matter in the case of all the characters outside of guts. If Idea existed or didn't, those people would still believe in Idea because they NEED Idea. the reason why Idea was created is because the struggle against fate is a huge theme in this story and having a more concrete thing to fight against makes it easier to grasp for most people. having guts fight against this theoretical thing is a lot less captivating story than Guts fighting against the controller of fate himself. but ultimately, the existence of Idea for the common man does not really matter, because he would rationalize his miseries as fate either way.

And I would have no problem with this, if Idea had said it itself was a reason, not that it provided reasons.

Is the reason why something happened and the person who provides the reason for why something happened that different? can you give an example of why they are different?

why did the man fall off his horse and die?
reason: because god made caused him to or he was "fated" to
who provides the reason: Idea.

In this scenario i see Idea as being the cause and blame of this scenario. how is it that you view it?

[Starnum]

That’s actually a good point. The majority of people already believe in Idea. At the very basic level, they blame their misfortune on fate, and Idea is the executor of fate. So in a way they already know about him. He exists because of not only their need for him, but also their belief in a force of great misfortune. It’s similar to believing in the devil, even though you’ve never actually seen him. The recent uprising of monsters can only fuel their beliefs as well, I’m sure.

[psi29a]

I think the question is, other than apostles... what else does IOE do? The 'other' stuff that IOE does, how does it do it?

The second question is hard to answer because I don't think Miura gives us any concrete facts of how he manipulates fate. But it is clear that IOE does.

If you want more details: source and read the conversation I quoted with Aazealh as he goes over what IOE is and how it is talked about by Skullknight.

Also, Pheonix: Just so we are clear, Volume 13: Chapter 3.5 – God of the Abyss II was in the Young Animal release but never made it into the Berserk volume. The link you provided is the SK.net crew's translations of the chapter released in YA.

They call all their chapters episodes, though I have no idea why. Do not confuse that with the anime, as Idea was never scripted into the anime.

[LordMune]

Also, Pheonix: Just so we are clear, Volume 13: Chapter 3.5 – God of the Abyss II was in the Young Animal release but never made it into the Berserk volume. The link you provided is the SK.net crew's translations of the chapter released in YA.

I was under the impression Miura thought Griffith's motives and Idea's function were a bit vague, and thus he added "3.5" for the tankoubon release. Guess I was wrong.

[psi29a]

We will find out won't we when Volume 13 is published by DarkHorse for sure, however:

14:15:01) psi29a: question, was the 'missing chapter' in the tank or in YA ?
(14:21:49) Aazealh: You mean episode 83?
(14:24:47) psi29a: yes
(14:25:46) Aazealh: Well, it was published in Young Animal, but not in the volume.
(14:25:49) psi29a: Sept 27 is the release date of volume 13 of bersek in the USA... just wondering if we will find 83 in there or if they will ignore it.
(14:25:55) psi29a: Gotcha
(14:25:55) Aazealh: No
(14:25:57) Aazealh: It won't be there
(14:26:02) Aazealh: It's not in any volume.
(14:26:17) psi29a: *nods* gotcha
(14:26:20) Aazealh: They couldn't even include it if they wanted.
(14:26:29) Aazealh: And of course, it's not allowed so that's moot.

Straight from Darkhose:

• The first ten volumes of Berserk have sold over 175,000 copies.

Volume 13 of Berserk
Publication Date: Sep 27, 2006

Volume 14 of Berserk
Publication Date: Nov 29, 2006
*Also included in this volume: "Berserk Prototype," the very first Berserk story, created during Kentaro Miura's college days as his audition that sold the series!

Volume 15 of Berserk
Publication Date: Jan 24, 2007


Note: We are going to take the Prototype off the tracker when Volume 14 is released in the USA.


Also: Phoenix:

14:26:50) psi29a: also, How exactly does Idea manipulate the world, other than by creating apostles ?
(14:27:37) Aazealh: Well, through causality
(14:27:42) Aazealh: I saw that link you sent earlier
(14:27:47) Aazealh: The guy's confused
(14:28:00) Aazealh: Idea can't really do much directly, obviously.
(14:28:12) Aazealh: It has the God Hand, and beherits.
(14:28:13) psi29a: yeah... he breaks my brain.
(14:28:17) Aazealh: And with that, it makes apostles.
(14:28:32) Aazealh: And it changes the world so that it's wha it wants it to be
(14:28:59) Aazealh: The guy's problem is that he's too presumptuous
(14:29:22) Aazealh: He thinks he knows much about the Idea of Evil or something, while it's all a great mystery.
(14:29:32) Aazealh: Because he can't explain something doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
(14:31:13) Aazealh: Well, mostly we don't know
(14:31:25) Aazealh: It's like asking what the God Hand does aside from creating apostles.
(14:31:38) Aazealh: Guess they hang around in their super cool lounge.

So there we go.

[Khelegond]

Volume 14 of Berserk
Publication Date: Nov 29, 2006
*Also included in this volume: "Berserk Prototype," the very first Berserk story, created during Kentaro Miura's college days as his audition that sold the series!

Just learned that here in Brazil it will be the same - the prototype will be released with that volume.

Now...why would they release the prototype and not the missing chapter? The missing chapter is much more important (story-wise) to the tale.

Well...whatever.