On the current status of Berserk and stuff...

[Quest]

the idea of good or evil doesnt mean anything to griffith. to him there are only people with ambition and those without.
the means to ambition may be quailified into good or evil, but such descriptions dont mean anything to him. everything can be a stepping stone or an obstacle to be removed.
its a practical view of his world. there is no good or evil.

guts also sees the world in such dichotomy: the weak and the strong. he seeks to be the strongest. the weak can just be trample and left to die. does the concept of good and evil apply to him?
i dont think so. even now, he rallies people willing to help him attain his quest. the actions he takes are not altruistic. they are by-products of his quest. a side one is to get to elfheim and main one is to get to femto.
being good or evil is a non-event to him as well.

[Baz]

First off just because Griffith doesn't apply moral terms to himself, (which is debateable) that doesn't mean they don't apply. Second you are paying way too much attention to what Guts said in Vols 1 to 3 and not enough on what he has done in all the other ones. Guts respect people who fight or struggle on though life. It's not really the same thing as strong and weak but fortitude. Also Guts is different from Griffith in as much as he does feel guilt for actions he knows are reprehensible, but this is a massive point in the story him trying to tip toe on the edge of hell. If Guts was like you said why does he have a habit of saving children? They are easily the weakest allies you can have but Guts goes out of his way for them. Also what about Casca she is not strong even if she is returned to normal, so really how does this work with the single mind killing machine interested in becoming the strongest? Personally I think it's been heavily hinted at that what Guts really dream for is a family and from now on as I don't think his present one will be killed like the Hawks he will spend his time fighting to protect them.

[Istvan]

Right, I wouldn't say that Gutts is evil, or even neutral. He often speaks as if he were (especially in the beginning volumes) and occasionally his actioncs seem that way, but I would claim that he is basically a (somewhat) good person. As for his actions, I would admit that he is very ruthless, especially in his tactics, but can you name one time when he killed an innocent, who wasn't attacking him? Or didn't act to a helpless chlid/woman who was in danger? For the second question, focus on when they were individuals, and so he could save them, not huge masses that he couldn't possibly save all of (and so he doesn't try).

[Quest]

yea maybe i am concentrating too much on his character in vol 1 to 3. i would like to believe that guts is not a goody goody character.

[Deathbringer]

yea maybe i am concentrating too much on his character in vol 1 to 3. i would like to believe that guts is not a goody goody character.

He isn´t, but from the point he´s on now, he´s able to tell good from bad.

[Istvan]

yea maybe i am concentrating too much on his character in vol 1 to 3. i would like to believe that guts is not a goody goody character.

He certainly isn't, while he isn't evil, and I would even claim that he's good, he isn't the sort of extreme "goody goody" character you'll see in a lot of other series, he's ruthless, sarcastic, and pragmatic in his goodness, and only very rarely could he be classified as actually being nice.

[Femto]

I don't know what's going on in this thread, but I bet it has nothing to do with the reason why I started it.

[psi29a]

Why are we even on a kick of naming what is good and what is evil?

Obviously Miura has inked a world in which "Good" and "Evil" are relative and as such, as mirroring our real world they concepts are fleeting. We are projecting our own views onto his work to justify Griffith's or Guts' actions which I think is a wrong way to look at it.

Try taking a step back and stand in their shoes for a moment, Miura gave us the childhoods of BOTH characters, to try and get us to feel for the characters.

The hawks would have been dead if it wasn't for either Griffith or Guts, so Griffith gave them that much longer to live. How is it evil that in the end, Griffith sacrificed them when in truth without Griffith they would have been dead anyway. (Think Casca at the hands of Aristocrat).

[Libaax]

Thats sounds crazy, about Griffith sacfricing the hawks when they would died without him.

[psi29a]

Face it, they where ready to die for his dream.

[Fuji Nagase]

well guts wasn't.

[Libaax]

Face it, they where ready to die for his dream.

They might wanted die fighting for his dream but they woulndt if they knew how little he cared about them and how he sacrificed them.

[Khelegond]

I disagree, psi. Of course, Griffith could sacrifice them. And I really mean he could. Sacrifice in a battlefield, in a scheming plot, in almost anyway. But sacrificing them to become a god hand thrown them in the maelstrom. Something like a hell. They're not resting, and never will. That is what makes me feel Griffith IS evil.

Gatts isn't evil, but not 100% good. He has some flaws, but that just makes hum more believable.

And sorry for hijacking your thread, Femto...

[psi29a]

That is the crux then, I'm of the opinion that they where all dead-men walking (excluding Guts) for following Griffith's dream. Thus none of them could be his 'friend' or equal because they (if you take it to the conclusion) are dead.

That was the point of Griffith's own flashback, the bodies of those that followed him are where lifeless bodies. His doing, because he wanted his dream.

Golden Age was nothing more than what Guts remembers, because it is HIS flashback. To Guts (present day), they are also all dead in terms of the flashback. (Exceptions for Rickert the new blacksmith of Godo's shop, saved from Idea's fate because of SK).

[Libaax]

They werent dead cause you arent dead till you actually die.

Just cause he might have saved them doesnt mean he owns them and can do what he wants with them. The fact that he did that showes he is pure evil and thats why his destiny is becoming a god hand cause they are pure evil.



I like Griffith character cause he is one of few characters that is very easy to hate cause he is so evil you can get.

[psi29a]

They werent dead cause you arent dead till you actually die.

Actually they where, remember the Golden Age is Guts' flashback meaning that in the timeline of things they are all dead. The events of the Golden Age and Eclipse had already happened.

I still maintain that your concepts of good and evil do not apply. They don't exist, you are just making 'moral' judgements based on your experience and derived conclusions.

[Libaax]

I was talking about what happened when he killed them it doesnt matter it was a flashback it happened. Or are you saying it didnt happen that way,that for some reason Guts flashback isnt what really happened?




If you cant judge him by what you believe then whats the point of your last posts who try to make excuses for what Griffith did. Like he did them a favor by killing them for nothing.


Its easy seeing why Guts hates him cause he is a fricking monster in this world or in Berserks world point of view.

[psi29a]

I'm not justifying Griffiths actions at all. This is what he did, no good, no evil.

Griffith had to sacrificed something he cared about. I think he could care less about the Hawks, he knew they where all tools to be used for him to get to his dream. I can't fault him for that because the Hawks came to him to make their little dreams come true. As far as Griffith is concerned they are dead men/women because Griffith's dream told him that is what would happen.

Now, what Griffith sacrificed was Guts, because Guts came back... notice how that the Eclipse didn't happen till Guts was there. He cared more about Guts than any other member of the hawks. Sacrifice of the Hawks was just part and parcel of whole package, meaning Guts. Griffith was always distant to every hawk member, including Caska. Raping caska was his final touch to the sacrifice of Guts.

[Khelegond]

What psi means is that they ALL sworn their lives to Griffith, for the simply reason that Griffith was the beacon that attracted them all. You couldgo to them and ask: "Would you die for me?" and they'll answer, promptly, "Yes".

So, Griffith (in his own mind) was sure that was their motivation as well. Thing is, Gatts didn't want that (he didn't want to die, and didn't want that Casca die as well). So, he fought.

So far, so good. My point is, in getting the Hawks to sacrifice for him, he wasn't only taking their lives. He was condemning them to a hell of anguish and will lose their own "unit" (as explained to the Count in the beggining of the series), and become one in the Maesltrom.

That is all. But you gotta admit. Griffith had a reason to do what he did (and that makes him an exceptional character) and he made a very, very evil act (which makes him an exception villain).

Gotta love Miura

[Libaax]

Its a given he cared more about Guts cause he was so jealous of Guts specially when Guts got tired of being his lapdog and left.

[psi29a]

Then there you go, it isn't hard to make the leap that because the Hawks would follow Griffith to their death that Griffith would then sacrifice them because they would have died anyway (Arrow scene where they where ambused by Midland after Griffith slept with Charelotte, Griffith sacrificed them there first because he wanted to be King).

Now what I like to entertain is by the time that Guts came back to the Hawks, are the Hawks still Griffith's or are they Casca's and later are they now Guts?

Could that have been also prompted reason for Griffith's sacrifice because the Hawks where no longer his. Griffith was a broken man, his tongue gone, most of flesh gone, he could hardly move. So from his point of view, was Griffith jealous of Guts or pissed that his tool (The Hawks) for getting his kingdom are no longer under his control.

Notice his attempted 'rape' of Casca in the back of wagon where he forced himself on top. Casca didn't do anything to remove herself from the situation. He knew at that point, he still had control because if he could take Casca from Guts, then he could sacrifice the hawks because through Casca and Guts is the tool (The Hawks).

[Eldo]

Notice his attempted 'rape' of Casca in the back of wagon where he forced himself on top. Casca didn't do anything to remove herself from the situation. He knew at that point, he still had control because if he could take Casca from Guts, then he could sacrifice the hawks because through Casca and Guts is the tool (The Hawks).

This is a very interesting point that I didn't notice until you mentioned it. That may be the reason to the lead up of Casca's rape in the Eclipse.

[Sandman]

Thats deep psi... never really thought much of the Griffith throwing him self on top of Casca, I was never sure what that was about. I always thought about it as a "do you still love me" situation. but I like the way you saw it better

[psi29a]

I had a lil talk with Aazealh to get his take. He gives good reasons.

[14:13]psi29a: Good discussion on the nature of Griffith, was Guts his sacrifice (the hawks just happened to be there)? http://www.evil-genius.us/forums/viewto ... 3865#73865
[16:11] Aazealh: Nah, it was all of them. Can't be just Guts from what the story shows.
[16:13] psi29a: point i was making is that Griffith viewed the Hawks as a tool to get his kingdom, and thanks to Griffith's dream he was prepared to sacrifice them... they where all dead to him exceptions being Casca (his wife in the dream) and Guts.
[16:13] Aazealh: Nothing say they were dead in his dream.
[16:13] Aazealh: Hell, the dog was called Pippin.
[16:13] psi29a: all the dead bodies didn't give that away?
[16:13] Aazealh: And their son was called Guts.
[16:14] Aazealh: You mean the Conrad/Ubik thing?
[16:14] Aazealh: That wasn't really a dream, and that wasn't about the Hawks themselves, just all the deads from his battles.
[16:14] psi29a: From that point of view, The Hawks where already dead as far as Griffith was concerned to sacrificing them wouldn't have mattered because you have to sacrifice something you care about.
[16:14] Aazealh: Anyway he was mostly manipulated during that thing.
[16:14] psi29a: That was Caska and Guts.
[16:14] Aazealh: Griffith cared about his army, and they were all branded.
[16:14] Aazealh: They got the brand = sacrificed.
[16:15] psi29a: *nods*
[16:15] Aazealh: If it was just Guts and Casca then only them would have been branded.
[16:15] Aazealh: Anyway, he was indeed ready to sacrifice them all.
[16:15] Aazealh: And that included Guts and Casca.
[16:15] Aazealh: I don't think he planned for them to escape or anything.
[16:15] psi29a: ok, then if he was ready to sacrifice them, what pushed him over the edge. Did that make him 'evil' ?
[16:16] Aazealh: Guts was the trigger.
[16:16] Aazealh: When Guts came up and looked at him
[16:16] Aazealh: We have to remember the context anyway
[16:16] Aazealh: After a year of torture
[16:16] Aazealh: His mind was half gone
[16:16] Aazealh: The guy was crazy and sort of hated Guts, he only thought about him
[16:16] Aazealh: His body is broken
[16:17] Aazealh: Then he sees Guts "steal" Casca from him
[16:17] psi29a: This is true, he seemed like he wanted to get back into control of the hawks, because of his weak attemt at rape with caska in the wagon.
[16:17] Aazealh: And the Hawks want to follow Guts anyway.
[16:17] Aazealh: So that guy is walking on the edge
[16:17] Aazealh: he decides to suicide
[16:17] Aazealh: But causality is in the way
[16:17] Aazealh: He fails
[16:17] Aazealh: just cuts his throat slightly
[16:17] psi29a: ah yes, now is he 'evil' for doing this or just crazy ?
[16:18] Aazealh: As Guts rushes toward him, Griffith knows that if he touches him then he'll never be able to forgive him
[16:18] Aazealh: Well, it's both really
[16:18] Aazealh: He was totally manipulated by Ubik
[16:18] Aazealh: They showed him things in a special light
[16:18] Aazealh: It's the beauty of causality, it was all made so he'd sacrifice
[16:18] Aazealh: But yeah, there's "evil" in it I guess.
[16:19] psi29a: Interesting
[16:19] Aazealh: He killed his men, that's unforgivable.
[16:19] psi29a: I was trying to make it so that evil and good are irrelivent that you have to look at the context of the situation. The question is is Griffith the villian?
[16:19] Aazealh: Besides, the God Hand themselves say they're evil so...
[16:19] psi29a: Depending on where you come from, he is or isn't.
[16:20] Aazealh: Well, he's definitely the antagonist
[16:20] psi29a: point there too.
[16:20] Aazealh: But we can't see he's just EVAL
[16:20] Aazealh: That's sort of irrelevant
[16:20] Aazealh: If we take the Idea of Evil into consideration then Griffith and the rest of the God Hand are just important pawns.
[16:20] Aazealh: His choices were decided long before his birth
[16:20] psi29a: Is there even a good? We have an Idea of Evil, no such thing as an Idea of Good, more imporantly the elements are nuetral and thus far "God" has not appeared.
[16:21] Aazealh: Well, "God" is the Idea of Evil
[16:21] Aazealh: The God created by men
[16:21] Aazealh: But there's no real force of good
[16:21] Aazealh: Not as far as humans are concerned
[16:21] Aazealh: There are the four elemental kings but they're a bit special
[16:21] psi29a: If there is no Good, then how can you say you are evil? There has to be counter balance.
[16:21] Aazealh: I don't like to call them good, rather I prefer "pure"
[16:21] psi29a: Other wise it is just God.
[16:22] psi29a: or Idea
[16:22] Aazealh: Well, the Idea of Evil calls itself evil, so... =)
[16:22] Aazealh: As things stand now, I think the closest we have to "good" is the elementals
[16:22] psi29a: That implies there is also another side. I'm just wondering where Miura plans on going with that.
[16:22] Aazealh: The piskies like Puck are fundamentally good for example.
[16:23] Aazealh: What's interesting is that the Idea of Evil was created by men. It's not an ancient being that existed since forever or that created the world.
[16:23] psi29a: So in your opinion Evil does indeed exist and they are not just saying Idea of Evil because it sounds cool?
[16:23] Aazealh: Yeah, of course.
[16:23] Aazealh: Miura often uses the word.
[16:23] psi29a: *nods* through the subconcious of man, Idea of Evil was formed.
[16:24] Aazealh: Yeah
[16:24] psi29a: Through Idea, the destinies (fate) is formed for humanity.
[16:24] psi29a: or is Destiny and Fate two different things?
[16:24] Aazealh: It influences the world yes, to do what, that's still a mystery.
[16:24] Aazealh: Well, there are 2 variables.
[16:25] Aazealh: In Berserk the terms "fate" or "destiny" are used as concepts, in a non authoritative way.
[16:25] Aazealh: Like "your fate is to die!"
[16:25] Aazealh: Just to sound cool.
[16:25] psi29a: I gotcha.
[16:25] Aazealh: They're not real forces like in Greek mythology.
[16:25] Aazealh: But there's causality.
[16:25] Aazealh: That's a real force at work.
[16:25] psi29a: As so Fate is what you make ?
[16:25] Aazealh: Through causality, Idea changes the world.
[16:26] psi29a: Interesting, hate to cut this short.. but time for lunch I'm starving. This has been most interesting.

[16:26] *** You have been disconnected. Tue May 16 16:26:48 2006.
[16:27] *** "Aazealh" signed on at Tue May 16 16:27:00 2006.
[16:27] Aazealh: The only real force we know of is causality, and it sort of does the same thing as "fate" anyway.
[16:27] Aazealh: Haha ok, bon appétit.

[Baz]

I must say I agree with much said and like the pointing out of that even God Hand themselves claiming to be evil. But this is why I said Griffith instead of Femto because up to the point of his death/birth? Into God Hand he had human will and as such the potential of either good or bad actions. As the God Hand are self proclaimed Evil rulers of hell, how can the concept of good/evil be in debate? Doesn't the very existence of a hell imply there is some sort of divine judgement, how else can you go to hell? I'm not saying there is a Jewdo Christian type system in place, as the term hell often implies but unless it’s just hell and everyone ends up there(what a crapy after life) then there must be some sort of universal moral system in motion…?