Guts and Griffith: The ties that bind

[Starnum]

Yeah, I have to agree with you there. I don't think he knew what advantage he would have from corrupting Gatts' seed.

[MournfulWoods]

I'm not following well, how come is it an advantage ? Maybe I should re-read that part of Griffith's Rebirth. Anyway I don't think Griffith knew when he raped Casca that she was already pregnant.

[Shisho]

I'm wondering about a third possiblity now. Would the demon child live if Caska had died? It seemed to of survived as being born as an embryo, which didn't happen long after they had gotten out. Gatz was born from a corpse too.

This could still be within the plan that Idea had for Griffith returning to the world without him actually planning on those two surviving.

[Libaax]

He did rape her for only one reason to punish Guts.

That may not be the only reason you know. I think he also did it because she had fallen for Gatts, and he wanted to show his ownership of her. I guess only Griffith and Miura-san know his true intentions though.

Lets face it Griffith didnt care much for Casca and the rest of Hawks and he raped to torture Guts because Guts were lying there helplessly. I mean what can be worse then seeing your girl getting raped before you while you cant do anything about it and then die knowing that.

[Istvan]

Now do we know if he knew that deforming that baby with his powers would be a means for him to reenter the world for his ambitions and the overall agenda of what he signed up for? I'm guessing there's a good chance he didn't, as he also acted as if he was pretty shocked when he realized his powers. (Crushing those other apostles.)

I don't think the baby was at all necessary for Griffith to reenter the world. Remember, the Egg apostle was what gave birth to Griffith. The only reason that the baby had anything to do with that was because the Egg apostle chose to absorb it into himself. The baby was hardly necessary in any way. In fact, I tend to think that the baby will be a problem down the way. If you recall, when Griffith was watching Guts and Zodd fight, he realized that despite the eclipse burning all his feelings for Guts out of him, he was starting to feel emotion as he watched Guts fight, and he blamed it on the fact that Gut's son was now a part of him, so the child's emotions were having an effect on him. Assuming he's right (and its not just the fact that his emotions for Guts were strong enough to survive even the eclipse) that could play a huge role in the future.

[Shisho]

Um. All eggs have to have a yolk. I'm kind of baffled at how you guys are drawing these conclusions about how the baby played no role when it's illustrated perfectly.

I'm not going to bother posting the pages, maybe someone else will if you're too lazy to go look. Griffith is reborn out of the child, and hatches from the "Egg of the New World". You can see in the picture the baby inside of the apostle and it takes on a normal form and grows into Griffith. The apostle then begins to crack open on a following page. He literally is an egg.

Their wishes are predetermined as are the events. If someone decides to smoke a cigarette and lights a match and throws it in the woods and then later it sets fire and creates a smoke cloud. Then the smoke is then seen by a nearby passing army and they read it as a signal and change course. They leave tracks behind that fill up with rain, and later some trips and gets knocked unconscious and drowns in a puddle. Every little event was known and arranged, even things that seem unlikely and coincidental. Idea got that guy hooked on tobacco just to kill this man with a puddle.

The two options here are "planned" or "replanned". There's good evidence to support either. The baby could've been designed to be born out of Caska's corpse, but it was also Caska that was the beacon for it that lead it to the tower.

[Starnum]

I'm wondering about a third possiblity now. Would the demon child live if Caska had died? It seemed to of survived as being born as an embryo, which didn't happen long after they had gotten out. Gatz was born from a corpse too.

This could still be within the plan that Idea had for Griffith returning to the world without him actually planning on those two surviving.

Hm, that's an interesting thought...

Lets face it Griffith didnt care much for Casca and the rest of Hawks...

Oh, well I'd think by now you'd know I don't agree with that so much *shrugs*.

I agree, that Gatts' son was probably necessary for the rebirth of Griffith, but I'm still not sure when Idea formed the plan. It could've been before Griffith was even born, or shortly before his Rebirth.

[Libaax]

Im not saying he didnt care about them at some time but he didnt care about them in the end.

[Lel]

He did rape her for only one reason to punish Guts.

Gut's is the only person that has "better'd" Griffith (at least, in his eyes). Griffith thought himself above others, a better fighter, a better strategist, etc. Guts is the only person that has truly suprised Griffith by defeating him.

So, at the Eclipse, IMO, the "Griffith' part of Femto took away the only thing Guts had, Casca. Guts was his, a soldier, a pawn, a tool. Yet when Guts defeated Griffith, he proved himself an equal. Not only that, but he became more than just a pawn, or just a soldier. He became a human, and because of him, so did Casca. Casca was no longer Griffith's, she was Guts's.

Femto/Griffith did the one thing that he knew would hurt Guts the most, was to take Casca for himself. To show Guts that the Hawks are still his tools, his things. Femto/Griffith raped Casca to get back at Guts for rising above him.

That's my opinion, sort of. It's pretty difficult to put into words.

[Libaax]

Thats my opinion too.

Its good to see there is someone else who see Griffith in that light.

[Devil_Dante]

Sounds stupid, but Griffith was jalous of Guts IMO.
In the end, it was Guts who controlled the army (what was left of it)
Caska became in love with Guts.
Gutz was stronger than Griffith.

[Tempest]

That sounds very possible actually, But I don't know of Griffith being jealous of Guts about Caska. I never saw any indication that Griffith ever once tried to, or wanted to return the affection that Caska was sending his way. And don't say the rape because that was most likely just to piss Guts off because he could do it without reprocution, kind of a "Try and stop me" thing.

Though I do think that Griffith being Defeated by Guts, getting the attention from Caska (Maybe Griffith is just an attention whore), as well as the leadership of the hawks is what ultimately drove him over the edge. That and the whole "torture" thing.

[Istvan]

To me what drove him "over the edge" as you say was the knowledge that it was now impossible for him to achieve his dream. He had given everything for that dream, and it was now impossible for him. Then he saw Guts, who was the only one he admired/respected going to go on without him, continueing Guts own path. Griffith couldn't live with such a loss, which is why he tried to commit suicide. I don't think he sacrificed the Hawks out of spite, or anything like that, it's just that that was now the only possible way for him to continue his dream, and for Griffith there was no other path. His dream was everything to him, and the Band of the Hawk was just a tool (remember his conversation with Charlotte and the vision he was shown at the eclipse before he made his choice?). Now raping Caska, I'll admit seems to have mostly been aimed at punishing Guts, hence the fact that he kept Guts alive to watch it. Although, if he really needed that child to be reborn, maybe he knew that even then, and that was the other reason that he raped her, to ensure the child was born.

[joegrim31]

Did anyone else feel the utter irony of that one moment in the graveyard of swords scene when we see Caska looking more secure in Griffith's arms than she ever has in Guts' (post eclipse at any rate)? That had to be a dagger in Guts' heart.

[psi29a]

Did anyone else feel the utter irony of that one moment in the graveyard of swords scene when we see Caska looking more secure in Griffith's arms than she ever has in Guts' (post eclipse at any rate)? That had to be a dagger in Guts' heart.

A dagger in all our hearts, she still loves Griffith, even after everything. Mirrors real life doesn't it.

[Starnum]

Well, she sensed her child in him too. It did hurt to see though.

[raziel]

I don't think that Griffith thought the band of the hawks were just merely tools. It's true to an extent, but you can tell that sometimes, he develops attachments to some. For instance there is this one part where he sees a dead boy who has died on the battlefield with a doll that looks like a soldier and reminisces to casca about how he used to serve the men with a smile and such. Casca remarks on this to gutts and says she has never seen such sorrow. However, this changes during the eclipse time, when Griffith sees his vision of himself as a boy meeting up with that same dead kid and changes what he felt for him around. He says that he was a building block to his dream and such and that by acheiving his dream his is doing it for all those who sacrificed themselves and died. In a way, its a twisted sense of affection for those who died for him.

[Istvan]

To me what seemed to bring Griffith sorrow in the kid was remembering that kid's dream. He remembered how incredibly strongly that boy desired to be a knight, and he knew that his own dream destroyed the boys. Griffith understands and accepts that to achieve his dream he must sometimes crush other people's, but I think that before the eclipse it still saddened him to have to do it, or to see it happen. Note that when he is remembering the boy, what he describes about him is his strong dream of being a knight.

[frosty]

Hhhmmm...I think my interpretation gonna invite some flames. Too much brokeback mountain....I guess.

I've always found that there is a very strong gay connection between Griffith and Guts. Griffith has a love for Guts as he has never met anyone that is near his equal. Griffith characterization has always been on the effeminate side. Both has been violated by another man. Guts revenged himself and in the process killed his stepfather. Griffith on the other hand took it in his stride as another means to achieve his ambition. It's hard to swallow considering that Griffith is someone that has so much pride. What set this in stone though is the naked water fight scene. I view it as a show of comrade from Guts and an act of affection from Griffith. When Guts decided to leave, Griffith reaction was very much like that of the spurn lover.

The raping was purely Griffith's act of wrath towards Caska for stealing Guts away from him.

My point of view. Flame away.....

[Quest]

t's hard to swallow considering that Griffith is someone that has so much pride.

i think it was not "out of character" for griffith to do that.
other than this, i agree with your points.

[Eldo]

You know what, frosty? If it was in real life, and I bash you, I'll be branded a homophobic, and all the gays in the world will come after me and rape me. But I did like the points you offered...now to give you my thoughts.

I wouldn't consider Griffith or Guts to have a gay relationship or a connection. Griffith was portrayed as perfect - a gentle, handsome, beautiful with a somewhat feminine side to it. Think back to the renainscence: the males that were considered to have been 'handsome' and 'beautiful' were feminine looking. Look back at the paintings that were at that time. You will notice that the facial features of the male looked similiar to the female. This could be applied to Griffith. Because of Griffith's feminine appearance, it expresses his charisma to both sexes, with both genders that are attracted to him and his cause.

Both characters being arse-raped does not automatically make them gay. It makes them victims of sexual abuse. Guts was never gay, otherwise he wouldn't have screwed Casca, or admit feelings for her. Griffith, however, could be a bisexual...while he did sleep with the rich guy, it was for money, so I guess it wouldn't be counted, and he also screwed Charlotte. The water fight where Griffith was naked was attempting to show how innocent Griffith is, as implied in the manga, that Griffith had the innocence of a child. In fact, Guts asked if Griffith was gay, and Griffith replied with a no.

As for Griffith raping Casca for stealing Guts, I have to disagree. Remember Griffith having a dream where she was married with Casca, and had children? I don't think he would have that episode if he was gay or if he loved Guts. Why wouldn't he have a gay dream with Guts instead of Casca? Griffith raping Casca was, to my eyes, merely showing Guts his dominance over both of them, and also showed Guts' helplessness as he watched on. It could also be an act of spite, as Guts was indirectly responsible for Griffith's downfall, and now Griffith will take the only thing Guts had learned to care about - Casca.

[psi29a]

Didn't we answer this one in the faq, Guts and Griffith are not gay.

Otherwise it would have been more evident in the manga.

This is just wishful thinking on your part.

[Deathbringer]

I can understand why people think that Griffith might be gay but Guts?

[Sandman]

Its only the small minded would think that Guts or Griffth were/are gay, if you read the manga there are more reasons for them NOT to be gay then there is that they are gay.

Griffith should be gay that would make my day, giving me one more reason to hate him ... but I know he is not

[Quest]

frosty's just stating that there is this "gay theme" that connects the two.
not that they are outright gay.