Guts and Griffith: The ties that bind

Post by **Messatsu** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:00 pm

The small inscription on the brand keeps spirits from being drawn to the branded, so they aren't attacked by undead... or possessed animals....or whatever.

But to return to the subject.

In my opinion, Griffith being some one who, had to struggle thru all his life in order to achieve his dream, saw in Guts a kindred soul who struggles just as much as he does but not for the same reason or purpose. Where as Griffith's soul yerned for his dreams to come true, so his mind is the major part of him that constantly battles for it. Where as Gut's struggle is only for the sake of survival, in effect only his body is what does all the fighting. So one could say that they both represent Body and mind.

Another way of seing it is that , Guts is driven by his will to fight, survive and his emotions, namely fear, he's also headstrong. On the other side completely Griffith always remains cool and calm never giving into fear rage or any such emotion and always has some plan before engaging in a battle.

Now despite all these opposites they have a very strong relationship one that goes beyond simply Commander and his subordinate, even beyond friendship, its more akin to brotherly love as if they where born for the sake of the other. This leeds me to believe that their relationship is a representation of the ying and yang, and that one cannot live without the other.

Post by **MrFelony** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:49 pm

I have to agree and disagree with a lot like usual

. i agree with starnum and mishu in that I do believe that griffith actually cared for those under him. he had formd bonds so to say, but not friendships. here is where i divert by agreeing with Buz. though he cared for those who followed him, he could never form true bonds free of the "master-servant" profile.

When you become friends with someone who you order around, itcomes out different than when you befriend someone who is, lets say, your equal. if i remember correctly, Guts was the only person whose main dream wasnt to see griffith become king. sure a lot of people there had other dreams, but a Guts was the only one who actually had the desire to go pursue something else (to our knowledge).

Another key difference between guts and griffith is taht guts was the only person under griffith who was actually near his equal. while everyone followed griffith's orders, guts was there disobeying them. i wonder if griffith ever had any naked water fights with any of the other me

. it also seems to me that while everyone who joined the Hawks seemed to "find their place in life," Guts obviously didnt. He seemed a lot more like griffith's friend who was helping him out, than a follower of griffith who got chummy with griffith. Guts is (from my recolection) the only person (well i guess besides casca) taht griffith talks to about deep things and helps relieve the immense guilt he feels about the deaths of his men.

I think another good discussion is whether or not griffith was in love with casca or did he truley just see her as a tool and sorta friend

. I believe that there was a chance that griffith did like her more than a tool/friend but i hav eto get to class

Post by **ZoddsNo1Fan** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:41 am

I agree. Guts was always driven for Griffeth. To find his approval, to be the best swordsman for Griffeth. Perhaps not to fullfill Griffeths dream but there for guidance, and to protect him.

Way back in the begining of Berserk, when Guts is new to the Hawks, and is riding rear flank to fend off the calvery attacks, Griffeth, after knowing Guts is still in danger, orders cannons out of the castle to help Guts, and even rides back to Guts and saves him. Or the time where hes dueling Zodd, and Griffeth risks 20 men to saving Guts. Had it been anyone else, would Griffeth had even cared?

I believe that Griffeth liked Guts from the start. Their two duels for Griffeths ownership of Guts made them always have trust in the other. When Griffeth first saw that Guts really did'nt care about joining some dumb mercinary band, Griffeth would'nt allow it. it was something about Guts that Griffeth was intrigued with.

Perhaps we can take the phrase, opposites attract with Griffeth and Guts. Griffeth, ultimate passion for his goals, intelligent, graceful, leader. Guts, doesnt care/wanderer, only intelligence is his sword fighting ability, and whenever someone addresses/ regards him highly he shakes it off as a mistake. Griffeth is the ultimate leader, while Guts is the ultimate rogue.

Together, they made an awsome team, and they both saw it.(i.e. when they pass on the battlefield they salute each other with a casual grin). In my oppinion as to why Guts is chasing after Griffeth(even though hes not, Griffeth is following him) i think that Guts wants answers. Guts still sees the great eclipse as a "wtf" type of experience. He wants answers from Griffeth, and he will get his answers one way or another.

p.s. considering this, perhaps Griffeth and Guts will retie their bonds once more, Griffeth offers Guts a place as his Commander once again, would Guts accept? It would be interesting to see if this did happen.

Post by **J2 Cool** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:47 am

It wouldn't be the same. As Griffith said, he has broken his bond to Guts, and appeared that one time to make sure. And I forget exactly what his words were, but I remember him making clear that he has no grudges, and that there's no reason why Guts couldn't be a soldier for Griffith. Not a partner, but soldier. And Guts would refuse to ever be under Griffith again. He refused the 1st time, until Griffith beat him. And humbled, he realized Griffith was a great leader, but never appeared anything but a partner. And remember, if Griffith wanted Guts again, it would be as it was before. Win a fight against him. I think Guts wouldn't stop fighting till he died, if Griffith wanted him again. Broken arm or worse.

Post by **Libaax** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:43 pm

ZoddsNo1Fan wrote:I agree. Guts was always driven for Griffeth. To find his approval, to be the best swordsman for Griffeth. Perhaps not to fullfill Griffeths dream but there for guidance, and to protect him.

Way back in the begining of Berserk, when Guts is new to the Hawks, and is riding rear flank to fend off the calvery attacks, Griffeth, after knowing Guts is still in danger, orders cannons out of the castle to help Guts, and even rides back to Guts and saves him. Or the time where hes dueling Zodd, and Griffeth risks 20 men to saving Guts. Had it been anyone else, would Griffeth had even cared?

I believe that Griffeth liked Guts from the start. Their two duels for Griffeths ownership of Guts made them always have trust in the other. When Griffeth first saw that Guts really did'nt care about joining some dumb mercinary band, Griffeth would'nt allow it. it was something about Guts that Griffeth was intrigued with.

Perhaps we can take the phrase, opposites attract with Griffeth and Guts. Griffeth, ultimate passion for his goals, intelligent, graceful, leader. Guts, doesnt care/wanderer, only intelligence is his sword fighting ability, and whenever someone addresses/ regards him highly he shakes it off as a mistake. Griffeth is the ultimate leader, while Guts is the ultimate rogue.

Together, they made an awsome team, and they both saw it.(i.e. when they pass on the battlefield they salute each other with a casual grin). In my oppinion as to why Guts is chasing after Griffeth(even though hes not, Griffeth is following him) i think that Guts wants answers. Guts still sees the great eclipse as a "wtf" type of experience. He wants answers from Griffeth, and he will get his answers one way or another.

p.s. considering this, perhaps Griffeth and Guts will retie their bonds once more, Griffeth offers Guts a place as his Commander once again, would Guts accept? It would be interesting to see if this did happen.

It isnt true that his only intelligence is his sword fighting ability. He has shown several times that he is pretty clever in art of war kind of way.

We have seen fights where he thought out several moves ahead to take down his enemy.

Also he was a leader from the start when he joined the hawks,he led the best fighters in the Hawks,who followed him to the death. Not the kind of leader Griffith was but in battle there wasnt a better leader.

Post by **Skullkracker** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:28 pm

true

just think about the duel with Serpicio

Post by **Libaax** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:36 pm

Yeah and many others fight he woulndt win against any apostle if he didn't come up with smart moves quickly.

I don't know why Guts isn't seen as smart just cause of his streangt,its not like he got this far with only brute force. Specially in the beginning when most apostles was way too strong for him.

Post by **Shisho** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:23 pm

Remember gentlemen it's all about the sparks.

Post by **Libaax** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:31 pm

Sparks you mean action or something else?

Post by **Istvan** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:48 am

The sparks from swords hitting each other. Remember? Gut's dream?

Post by **MrFelony** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:30 am

also remember guts' conversasion with godo. both live for and in the sparks. And yes Guts is a very sly man. he may not have been very smart in the beginning but he has a LOT of experience.

Post by **inkthinker** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 7:42 am

Interesting that I should come to this, having just finished vol. 10 (again) now that the DH release is out. I noticed that, during the escape from the prison, there's a moment where the rescue team stops and Casca wipes the blood from Guts's face in a sort of bizarre tender moment. Griffith takes this in, and the reaction that I read from the panels is that Griffith is not pleased at this development.

I think Griffith has a very strong sense of possession regarding Guts... he said it at the beginning, Guts belongs to him. When Guts had the utter termerity to strike out on his own, and was able to defeat Griffith in the process, Griffith was utterly shattered to the point that he made rash, foolish moves that resulted in his fall from grace.

No-one else can have any claim on Guts, Griffith won't allow it. Not Casca, not even Guts himself. I think this adds some additional subtext to Griffith raping Casca before Guts's eyes (or "eye")... he took Casca in order in to take possession of Guts once more.

Even now, I think perhaps he's still manipulating our hero in certain ways.

Post by **Starnum** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 7:45 am

Yeah, I think he felt as if he should have possession of Casca as well. She had so deeply admired him for so long, that seeing her act that way towards Gatts probably hurt him.

Post by **Messatsu** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:12 pm

I think this particular part is very abigious, considering that since griffith is rendered mute and that during these scenes it seems more like his iron mask is whats giving him a sort of negative look in his eyes.

Post by **inkthinker** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 11:05 pm

Well, certainly it's the mask that's defining his expression, but nothing like that is drawn accidentally... if Miura hadn't wanted Griffith to look... well, ominous, at least, then he wouldn't have drawn him from that angle in that way, and made Griffith's expression the focus of the panel.

No, I'm pretty sure that there's a defining moment right there... he sees that Casca and Guts have something together, something separate from him, and Griffith will not stand for that.

I'm not saying this is a huge thing, but I believe that Berserk is not without its subtleties. I was honestly always a bit confused by Griffith's act of brutal rape as the culmination of the sacrifice, but I think now perhaps it makes a bit more sense.

All things considered, Griffith's obsession with possession (not material possessions, but possession itself, the state of having things that belong to YOU) is pretty understandable... he grew up with nothing, in some ways less than nothing, and his whole existence has been a drive to surpass that. He won't be satisfied until he's taken posession of EVERYTHING, and he'll do anything to get what he wants.

Hence, the events of the Eclipse.

Man, rereading these chapters where Guts and Casca are coming together, knowing what's to come and how their relationship will be forced to endure for the next 20+ volumes... pretty heartbreaking.

Post by **ZoddsNo1Fan** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 3:15 am

Libaax wrote:
It isnt true that his only intelligence is his sword fighting ability. He has shown several times that he is pretty clever in art of war kind of way.

We have seen fights where he thought out several moves ahead to take down his enemy.

Also he was a leader from the start when he joined the hawks,he led the best fighters in the Hawks,who followed him to the death. Not the kind of leader Griffith was but in battle there wasnt a better leader.

First off Libaax, when i say, "his only intelligence was his sword fighting ability", i mean that the only thing that Guts has ever known to do was wield his sword, and everything to do with it. Guts life is the battlefield. Whether its contemplating what his enemy will do next, or giving his troop commands is apart of battle.

I wasnt saying Guts was stupid i was being bland. Guts is a master swordsman, if you call him a man that is. He even said that all he knew was how to weild his sword in battle. Guts isnt the philosipher that Griffeth could be, he was strict and to the point. Guts didnt care about trival matters, he only knew what needed to be done, and stops at no length to see that it is accomplished.

If that means he has to bring himself to the point of death, he willingly does so, and does so often. As for inthinker, i agree with your view of the great eclipse, given one matter. I actually think that Griffeths reason for raping Caska wasnt in Guts and Caskas affairs in the earlier volumes of Berserk, but in volume 12. When Caska is tending to Griffeths wounds and is talking outside of the wagon with Guts.

They talk about Griffeth and what the band of the hawk should do next. Griffeth sees Guts and Caska embracing and he feels envy for them. That after all his passions and dreams, it is he who is the weaker. Later when Caska is tending to Griffeths wounds, he rolls over onto her for some reason. Later, once again Guts finds Caska crying behind Griffeths wagon. He asks her what the problem is, and she replys that she wasnt going with the Hawks, that she was staying with Griffeth. That he was too weak to leave behind.

Caska also refers to my initial post at the start of this thread, at prom rose palace, when Griffeth is speaking with Charllotte. She refers to Griffeths saying, "A man who would be my friend must have his own reason for living, beyond me, and he should put his heart and soul into protecting his dream. He should never hesitate to defend it, even against me". She says, "If your Griffeths friend than you must go. You have your own dreams. Your own battles to fight". She saw Guts and Griffeths friendship and didnt want to break that bond. How ironic that it would be she who would be the main reason for their hatred toward each other.

I believe that this is why Griffeth raped Caska. The pain that he endured, the envy of his shattered dreams, the only thing keeping him from his dream was Guts, and he wanted a little payback for all the harm Guts caused him.

Post by **Starnum** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:21 am

Yes, that was a part of it. As was also the fact that he felt Casca should be his. Also, I hate to say it dude, but you're killing me here. His name is Griffith dude, spelled with two (i's) and no (e's).

G-R-I-F-F-I-T-H

Normally I don't worry about that kind of stuff anymore, but seeing it spelled with an (e) so many times was hurting me, heh.

Post by **Shisho** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:45 am

G-R-I-F-F-E-T-O

Post by **Libaax** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:34 am

I like how people make excuses for what Griffith did all the time.

He is one twisted son of ***** we all know that and why.

Post by **Khelegond** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:03 pm

Yup. It's like when a guy enters your house, kill your family, and rape your sisters, then come a fucking Human Right Defensor and says 'That was what the society made him..."

Go fuck another one. If you do something evil, you should get something evil in return. Eye for an eye, teeth for teeth. Call me Draconian if you will.

I hate when people blame their actions on something else. Like when someone sues McDonald's for getting fat. YOU'RE KNEW WHAT YOU WERE DOING!

Fuckers.

Post by **Messatsu** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:38 am

Well theres no doubt that Casca's rape was nothing short of evil, but every one always wonder why Griffith did it. Sooo we analyze what could have brougth him to do such a thing i dont think where making excuses. for his sake.

Post by **mithuntnt** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:52 am

although casca settled with gutts, casca's first choice was Griffith. She did worship Griffith and was ready to do anything for him. In a way casca wont be able to blame Griffith fully from her heart.

About Griffith raping Casca, he did have a points. Supress all rebeliion against him with iron hand. He created an example for betrayal against him.

Post by **Libaax** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 4:56 am

She worshiped Griffith but she didnt love him as she did Guts maybe cause she knew Guts doesnt think he is better than her like Griffith did.

He did rape her for only one reason to punish Guts.

Supress which rebeliion?? He did kill all of the hawks and he has shown that he can control people with the white hawk dreams.

Post by **Starnum** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:28 am

Libaax wrote:He did rape her for only one reason to punish Guts.

That may not be the only reason you know. I think he also did it because she had fallen for Gatts, and he wanted to show his ownership of her. I guess only Griffith and Miura-san know his true intentions though.

Post by **Shisho** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:31 am

Libaax wrote:She worshiped Griffith but she didnt love him as she did Guts maybe cause she knew Guts doesnt think he is better than her like Griffith did.

He did rape her for only one reason to punish Guts.

Supress which rebeliion?? He did kill all of the hawks and he has shown that he can control people with the white hawk dreams.

Now do we know if he knew that deforming that baby with his powers would be a means for him to reenter the world for his ambitions and the overall agenda of what he signed up for? I'm guessing there's a good chance he didn't, as he also acted as if he was pretty shocked when he realized his powers. (Crushing those other apostles.)