It's true that one of the key relationships, if not the main relationship, in the Berserk series is the relationship of Guts and Griffeth. What fuels this relationship along? Seeing how it is one of the main factors to the stories plot.
I was just watching the Berserk anime, about halfway through the series where Griffeth and Charllote are talking at the fountain outside the ball. Guts was letting them talk because he didn't want to inturpt them in his present state. While they are talking Charllote states "...im sure your friends are equally as fascinated by you and that attracts them to you". Griffeth replies "They are my able soldiers its true, they are dedicated comrades who sacrifice themselves in order to make my dream come true, but that does not make them friends".
" In my mind a true friend never relies on anothers dream. A man who would be my friend must have his own reason for living, beyond me, and he should put his heart and soul into protecting his dream. He should never hesitate to defend it, even against me. For me to call a man my friend he must be equal to me in all respects".
While Guts had always been a mercinary, wandering from battle to battle fighting for gold, he had found someone he could follow for a while. Later in the series Guts leaves the Band of the Hawk because he did not want to live by Griffeth's dream. He states that he wanted to be equal to Griffeth, to have his own dreams, which would then make him Griffeth's friend. Guts defeating Griffeth, in turn makes Griffeth have an affair with princess Charllote and is Griffeths downfall.
How do Guts and Griffeth add up? What is Guts's dream? Why is he still pursueing Griffeth? Is it truley for revenge or something more? Will Griffeth ever see Guts as his equal or is that long since forgoten?
Please feel free to say what fuels the bond of Guts and Griffeth.
Guts and Griffith: The ties that bind
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ZoddsNo1Fan
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If you see the part of the anime where the remaining Hawks just saved Griffith you will find out that Guts finally found his dream. Gaston and the remaining Hawks wanted to follow Guts. There Guts realized that his dream was always by him and it was only when he was about to lose it, he realizes it.
But after the eclipse, basically Guts wants to revenge for all of his friends and Caska. He was also later reminded that he has to take care of Caska too.
I believe Guts and Griffith were never equals, it was always someone was stronger and the other weaker. It was until Griffith was beaten by Guts he realized that Guts has surpassed him.
But after the eclipse, basically Guts wants to revenge for all of his friends and Caska. He was also later reminded that he has to take care of Caska too.
I believe Guts and Griffith were never equals, it was always someone was stronger and the other weaker. It was until Griffith was beaten by Guts he realized that Guts has surpassed him.
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evilester_me
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Guts is still better than Griffith to us, but not really in the story.
Anyone here read the Count of the Monte Cristo? Griffith is a lot like the man who betrayed Edward to get the girl and glory once he realizes his inferiority. Consequently, Guts was turned into a monster and was in a way forced to sharpen his skills and build a ten foot wall around himself again by his betrayal. This will in the end give him the edge against Griffith IMO, buit thats why I'm really not liking his new little commrades, they ruin the balance of my theory. (specially the witch)
Anyone here read the Count of the Monte Cristo? Griffith is a lot like the man who betrayed Edward to get the girl and glory once he realizes his inferiority. Consequently, Guts was turned into a monster and was in a way forced to sharpen his skills and build a ten foot wall around himself again by his betrayal. This will in the end give him the edge against Griffith IMO, buit thats why I'm really not liking his new little commrades, they ruin the balance of my theory. (specially the witch)
Yeah, I thought Griffith showed weakness in his values in a way. Why did he fall to Princess Charlotte and Midland? Lack of discipline. He needed a friend to carry him. After he gave that speech, they had the burning of the Queen, and Guts was his right hand man the whole way. He began asking him if Guts thought he was cruel, and Guts reassured him. But he couldn't reassure himself, he needed a friend.
His values in a way betrayed his humanity. And he's always followed his values, which is why his will is so strong. It's otherworldy. And at that one point, Guts was the one guy that could change him. He hated him, and loved him. It tore him up. He was at his end. He had nothing. And then he was offered everything. Become truly otherworldy. Or give it all up. Which is why it's so understandable what Griffith did. He brought himself back on track. He chose his original path again, after Guts pushed him off it. And that's probably because Guts challenged him, Guts overcame adversity since birth.. Guts is a downright hero. Even Griffith gave him credit many times. He was never supposed to come as far as he did. They both have incredible wills. But Guts follows a very human-driven path, while Griffith's is very value-driven. And the collide as well as work very much the same.
But it's also completely understandable where Guts rage comes from. He can't stand Griffith in his rawest form. He's nothing but a Monster in his eyes now. The admiration and respect is deeply buried by Guts' rage. And Griffith meanwhile is so otherworldly, he doesn't feel or concern himself with Guts anymore. He came to see if he'd gotten over his ties when he met him at the grave of the Hawks. On the grave of comradery, he rejected Guts. He's always ideally realized he needed to use his soldiers as his weapon, not as his friend. And when they die, simply use them again, as a step towards his kingdom.
Guts struggles to find a common ground with Griffith, to be on his level, but as of now he can't. That said, he's still yet to be stopped. He's risen to every occasion. He's done more than any human ever has. He's fought apostles head-to-head and taken them down many times over. He's an ever growing threat to The Band of the Hawks and the Apostles. The black swordsman. But he's not a god. Though nobody knows how far the Berserker armor can take him, or how far his rage can carry him. Also, he's gaining wisdom all the time. With his group, traveling to the elf land, and meeting Skull Knight. Someone impossibly strong, who makes you believe anything is possible, as he plans to take down a godhand.
A meeting with Griffith seems inevitable. Guts as a threat growing seems inevitable. It's just that right now, he can't touch Griffith. Their relationship has changed and developed a lot since the start. And right now, Guts is a bug to Griffith. But he's snuck up before on him, without Griffith ever knowing. If he does it now, it will be in direct confrontation.
His values in a way betrayed his humanity. And he's always followed his values, which is why his will is so strong. It's otherworldy. And at that one point, Guts was the one guy that could change him. He hated him, and loved him. It tore him up. He was at his end. He had nothing. And then he was offered everything. Become truly otherworldy. Or give it all up. Which is why it's so understandable what Griffith did. He brought himself back on track. He chose his original path again, after Guts pushed him off it. And that's probably because Guts challenged him, Guts overcame adversity since birth.. Guts is a downright hero. Even Griffith gave him credit many times. He was never supposed to come as far as he did. They both have incredible wills. But Guts follows a very human-driven path, while Griffith's is very value-driven. And the collide as well as work very much the same.
But it's also completely understandable where Guts rage comes from. He can't stand Griffith in his rawest form. He's nothing but a Monster in his eyes now. The admiration and respect is deeply buried by Guts' rage. And Griffith meanwhile is so otherworldly, he doesn't feel or concern himself with Guts anymore. He came to see if he'd gotten over his ties when he met him at the grave of the Hawks. On the grave of comradery, he rejected Guts. He's always ideally realized he needed to use his soldiers as his weapon, not as his friend. And when they die, simply use them again, as a step towards his kingdom.
Guts struggles to find a common ground with Griffith, to be on his level, but as of now he can't. That said, he's still yet to be stopped. He's risen to every occasion. He's done more than any human ever has. He's fought apostles head-to-head and taken them down many times over. He's an ever growing threat to The Band of the Hawks and the Apostles. The black swordsman. But he's not a god. Though nobody knows how far the Berserker armor can take him, or how far his rage can carry him. Also, he's gaining wisdom all the time. With his group, traveling to the elf land, and meeting Skull Knight. Someone impossibly strong, who makes you believe anything is possible, as he plans to take down a godhand.
A meeting with Griffith seems inevitable. Guts as a threat growing seems inevitable. It's just that right now, he can't touch Griffith. Their relationship has changed and developed a lot since the start. And right now, Guts is a bug to Griffith. But he's snuck up before on him, without Griffith ever knowing. If he does it now, it will be in direct confrontation.
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ZoddsNo1Fan
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First of all, great posts all, J2 in particular. You speak of how guts still needs to gain more strength if he wishes to go toe to toe with Griffeth and stand a chance. Given the fact that they are journying to the elf kingdom to see the elf lord, is it possible that the elflord will furthur Guts skills to the point of a near god?
When we last saw Guts test his full strength against a god he fought against Zodd and did a decent job. But Griffeth beat Zodd easily to gain his alligiance. It will take much more for guts to be a contender with Zodd let alone Griffeth. Its only a matter of time until we see how this unfolds.
Also, as far as Griffeth and Guts being equal, Guts always has looked up to Griffeth, as though Griffeth were a part of a dream, unreachable. This happens in the Anime in particular. Guts always sees Griffeth standing on a high platform, majestic like, save for the short time where he was weak. Guts has always had more sword power than Griffeth, save the beginning of the series, but Griffeth has always had more status and bigger dreams even Guts cannot live up to or wants to be a part of. Guts has always been lesser than Griffeth, will this ever change though? Will there be a short time in the series where Guts is better than Griffeth? When i say better i mean his dream is bigger, his status better, to the point where Griffeth even admits him a friend?
P.S., Griffeth states, "Some people see only life and death. They are dead because they have no dreams." Is this true for Guts? Is this all Guts is driven to do? All he sees is death, he kills in his rage and forges on for revenge. Is it true that Guts has no dreams? I belive that this is true.
When we last saw Guts test his full strength against a god he fought against Zodd and did a decent job. But Griffeth beat Zodd easily to gain his alligiance. It will take much more for guts to be a contender with Zodd let alone Griffeth. Its only a matter of time until we see how this unfolds.
Also, as far as Griffeth and Guts being equal, Guts always has looked up to Griffeth, as though Griffeth were a part of a dream, unreachable. This happens in the Anime in particular. Guts always sees Griffeth standing on a high platform, majestic like, save for the short time where he was weak. Guts has always had more sword power than Griffeth, save the beginning of the series, but Griffeth has always had more status and bigger dreams even Guts cannot live up to or wants to be a part of. Guts has always been lesser than Griffeth, will this ever change though? Will there be a short time in the series where Guts is better than Griffeth? When i say better i mean his dream is bigger, his status better, to the point where Griffeth even admits him a friend?
P.S., Griffeth states, "Some people see only life and death. They are dead because they have no dreams." Is this true for Guts? Is this all Guts is driven to do? All he sees is death, he kills in his rage and forges on for revenge. Is it true that Guts has no dreams? I belive that this is true.
He may become bigger without realizing it, like he did the first time by choosing his own dream over Griffith's already near-realized dream.. By defending human values, over ideal ones. He's an unbridled hero in a lot of ways. One that's unfed by people's admiration, but successful in his goals. Right now, that's taking down Griffith. But in doing so he could save a lot of people and the respect of his original comrades, as well as current. But he's always been humbled, a good quality of his. Griffith's always been unsatisfied and determined his goals, but graceful in his success. Example being, when he became a knight. He took it with grace, even though we all knew that wasn't important to him. Guts never accepts praise and admiration, and doesn't care for it, as noted by him sitting outside practicing.
As far as the Elf Kindgom, we'll see what happens. Maybe Guts unsefishly goes there to cure Caska, and begrudgingly accepts more power. Or maybe the Elf King knows the power of the Berserker armor, and warns Guts. Or tells him he shouldn't use it but once, against a Godhand. Or maybe he can protect Guts from the armor's self-inflicting injuries. I think the injuries though will end up being Guts' sacrifice, if he does use it against Griffith though.
And yeah, that Zodd fight was amazing. I loved that. But I'm not sure you'd call him a god. Skull Knight's possibly got the strength of a god, because he has beaten Zodd with ease on occasion. Not with Griffith's ease, but still to where Zodd didn't have much a shot. We'll see though. It's really at a point where this story could go anywhere. I got a feeling it could severely change in tone, once we hit a new arc. That's what happened with the ending of the Golden Age arc and the one that followed. We went from a midieval military-like story, about ambition, curses, and success. All with a little bit of fantasy elements breaking through. Then to a lone warrior type of arc with complete fantasy elements. Followed by a comradery, character arc about a group of travelers surviving a rapidly changing world. And with the hints they keep pushing and changes of the world, maybe the next arc will be a complete fantasy-like war on earth that the characters get caught in. Though that may just be the immediate. The results from the war could shape a wasteland of sorts though. Or it could go to a scope of all the powers within this world. Griffith's Band and the Kushan empire being only 2. The Elf land and other elemental forces may consist of the rest.
They did say back when Skull Knight was young, he was a force to reckon with in a world war type atmosphere. If all the mirror elements of the 2 are true, we might see Guts being a major force in a world war. Or maybe Griffith takes that role, with his army. Or possibly Griffith becomes the terror of the entire elemental forces. His envisioned kingdom, similar to the Eclipse on earth. And here's an idea. It could be a stretch based on too much assumptions, but maybe the Elf king gives Guts the responsibilty of leading an army of that land. If that happened, then maybe like you wondered, Guts would be an equal of Griffith's and a direct enemy. He could even start strategizing, which would really change and develop Guts entire character. Also, it would give that next arc a complete change of perspectice like I said I expected. And if Casca is revived, she may be chosen to be a leader of that army also. I dunno. I think that would be amazing. Skull Knight would probably be the ideal choice, but he would reaffirm that he's a lone swordsman himself and go after Void. And Guts would shed that lone swordsman image, which they already seem to be doing. The Elf King could look at how he handled his small group as evidence that he's worthy, and they may back him in something he would be reluctant to accept. Then the series would return to it's roots, a war, with elements of the fantastic in Griffith and his apostles. Leading to the 100 year war being only a pre-cursor to the real greatest war of that era. The Golden Age arc being a training ground of sorts for Guts and Griffith.
Someone please tell me if I'm insane here, or if I may be onto something.
As far as the Elf Kindgom, we'll see what happens. Maybe Guts unsefishly goes there to cure Caska, and begrudgingly accepts more power. Or maybe the Elf King knows the power of the Berserker armor, and warns Guts. Or tells him he shouldn't use it but once, against a Godhand. Or maybe he can protect Guts from the armor's self-inflicting injuries. I think the injuries though will end up being Guts' sacrifice, if he does use it against Griffith though.
And yeah, that Zodd fight was amazing. I loved that. But I'm not sure you'd call him a god. Skull Knight's possibly got the strength of a god, because he has beaten Zodd with ease on occasion. Not with Griffith's ease, but still to where Zodd didn't have much a shot. We'll see though. It's really at a point where this story could go anywhere. I got a feeling it could severely change in tone, once we hit a new arc. That's what happened with the ending of the Golden Age arc and the one that followed. We went from a midieval military-like story, about ambition, curses, and success. All with a little bit of fantasy elements breaking through. Then to a lone warrior type of arc with complete fantasy elements. Followed by a comradery, character arc about a group of travelers surviving a rapidly changing world. And with the hints they keep pushing and changes of the world, maybe the next arc will be a complete fantasy-like war on earth that the characters get caught in. Though that may just be the immediate. The results from the war could shape a wasteland of sorts though. Or it could go to a scope of all the powers within this world. Griffith's Band and the Kushan empire being only 2. The Elf land and other elemental forces may consist of the rest.
They did say back when Skull Knight was young, he was a force to reckon with in a world war type atmosphere. If all the mirror elements of the 2 are true, we might see Guts being a major force in a world war. Or maybe Griffith takes that role, with his army. Or possibly Griffith becomes the terror of the entire elemental forces. His envisioned kingdom, similar to the Eclipse on earth. And here's an idea. It could be a stretch based on too much assumptions, but maybe the Elf king gives Guts the responsibilty of leading an army of that land. If that happened, then maybe like you wondered, Guts would be an equal of Griffith's and a direct enemy. He could even start strategizing, which would really change and develop Guts entire character. Also, it would give that next arc a complete change of perspectice like I said I expected. And if Casca is revived, she may be chosen to be a leader of that army also. I dunno. I think that would be amazing. Skull Knight would probably be the ideal choice, but he would reaffirm that he's a lone swordsman himself and go after Void. And Guts would shed that lone swordsman image, which they already seem to be doing. The Elf King could look at how he handled his small group as evidence that he's worthy, and they may back him in something he would be reluctant to accept. Then the series would return to it's roots, a war, with elements of the fantastic in Griffith and his apostles. Leading to the 100 year war being only a pre-cursor to the real greatest war of that era. The Golden Age arc being a training ground of sorts for Guts and Griffith.
Someone please tell me if I'm insane here, or if I may be onto something.
Last edited by J2 Cool on Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
Well I don't know if you noticed in Gatz's explanation of the bonfire he explained that he was the only one who didn't truly have a dream of his own, and his whole life was living from battle to battle and he never had time to think about what he wanted. This could mean that Griffith probably noticed and realized that his people all had ambitions and dreams of their own and was able to recognize many of them as friends. Equal in the regard that they will do whatever it takes to achieve their dream. (Even if it involved living under someone else’s dream.)
See Griffith says and does things that get reactions out of people without it being his intention. It could be part of his "destiny" that drives things in the direction they had gone. He has this somewhat magical power over people. He even told Foss he didn't really know what he was planning he just knew he was going to be an enemy after seeing how he reacted to him.
Here in Gatz's case he heard those words from Griffith and he internally felt that he had no dream of his own and assumed that Griffith probably was aware of this and didn't consider him a friend. Which actually is probably wrong, aside from displaying supernatural cunning and awareness he has his flaws and he lets his guard down many times. It's a philosophy, but he's was still human at the time and still probably had a deep feeling of friendship for Gatz despite what he was trying to reason. He just couldn’t grasp it or realize what it was.
Later at the eclipse you know this is true, because he states that Gatz was the only man that made him forget his dreams. It was an inner conflict of his ideals and he feelings. He thought that a friend must be his equal, but he felt friendship for Gatz and no doubt a lot of his people. If he truly was committed to his idea at the time that they were his subordinates he wouldn't of done so much for them. It wasn't until the eclipse that he made his decision and to live up to his ideals and principles to the fullest and forsake them as a means to an end. The other God Hand's manipulated his decision no doubt by correlating his battlefield struggles and sacrifices to the ceremonial appointment sacrifices. Comparing and justifying and reasoning with him that it's no different than what he was doing before.
He definitely has some personality weaknesses. I'm sure if Gatz didn't leave (which was honestly a stupid idea, he realized this also) things would've been great for him, and then if Griffith wasn't so fond of Gatz and dependant on him (which later he comes to resent and objectify Gatz as the reason for his failure) he wouldn't of been impulsively driven to Charlotte. Who knows really what he was thinking other than probably something self destructive. He probably either realized he would be caught and wanted to face the penalty, or he felt he had to move along faster in his dream since his plans in the future all depended on Gatz. If he banked everything on Gatz then he was definitely in a hopeless situation in his mind. It could honestly be anything when a person is in a vulnerable position such as his.
What exists now though is probably purely revenge. I think Gatz demonstrated to Griffith he was superior to him as a swordsman and Griffith probably had an enormous respect for him as a person too. Although he seems like a quiet and loyal soldier he's actually quite deep and philosophical himself. Griffith was able to read people very well and he probably knew a lot more about Gatz then Gatz realized. This is why Gatz thought Griffith would just get over him, and that he was just a “rock in the road”.
Gatz's dream might have just been the same as Zodd's dream. He just wasn't fully aware of it. He may just live to fight and his goal was probably to be the strongest fighter in the world. Well, now at least he has a new dream.
See Griffith says and does things that get reactions out of people without it being his intention. It could be part of his "destiny" that drives things in the direction they had gone. He has this somewhat magical power over people. He even told Foss he didn't really know what he was planning he just knew he was going to be an enemy after seeing how he reacted to him.
Here in Gatz's case he heard those words from Griffith and he internally felt that he had no dream of his own and assumed that Griffith probably was aware of this and didn't consider him a friend. Which actually is probably wrong, aside from displaying supernatural cunning and awareness he has his flaws and he lets his guard down many times. It's a philosophy, but he's was still human at the time and still probably had a deep feeling of friendship for Gatz despite what he was trying to reason. He just couldn’t grasp it or realize what it was.
Later at the eclipse you know this is true, because he states that Gatz was the only man that made him forget his dreams. It was an inner conflict of his ideals and he feelings. He thought that a friend must be his equal, but he felt friendship for Gatz and no doubt a lot of his people. If he truly was committed to his idea at the time that they were his subordinates he wouldn't of done so much for them. It wasn't until the eclipse that he made his decision and to live up to his ideals and principles to the fullest and forsake them as a means to an end. The other God Hand's manipulated his decision no doubt by correlating his battlefield struggles and sacrifices to the ceremonial appointment sacrifices. Comparing and justifying and reasoning with him that it's no different than what he was doing before.
He definitely has some personality weaknesses. I'm sure if Gatz didn't leave (which was honestly a stupid idea, he realized this also) things would've been great for him, and then if Griffith wasn't so fond of Gatz and dependant on him (which later he comes to resent and objectify Gatz as the reason for his failure) he wouldn't of been impulsively driven to Charlotte. Who knows really what he was thinking other than probably something self destructive. He probably either realized he would be caught and wanted to face the penalty, or he felt he had to move along faster in his dream since his plans in the future all depended on Gatz. If he banked everything on Gatz then he was definitely in a hopeless situation in his mind. It could honestly be anything when a person is in a vulnerable position such as his.
What exists now though is probably purely revenge. I think Gatz demonstrated to Griffith he was superior to him as a swordsman and Griffith probably had an enormous respect for him as a person too. Although he seems like a quiet and loyal soldier he's actually quite deep and philosophical himself. Griffith was able to read people very well and he probably knew a lot more about Gatz then Gatz realized. This is why Gatz thought Griffith would just get over him, and that he was just a “rock in the road”.
Gatz's dream might have just been the same as Zodd's dream. He just wasn't fully aware of it. He may just live to fight and his goal was probably to be the strongest fighter in the world. Well, now at least he has a new dream.
Well before Griffith sacrificed Guts and the rest of hawks,Guts dream was like Zodd,just to travel around and get stronger by fighting in battles.
I think he feels he belongs in a battlefield.
Now he doesnt have his dream anymore of becoming a stronger warrior now there is only revenge.
As someone said even if his new friends has made him kinder,less of a jerk as he was when he met Puck. They still annoy me cause they are in the way of his goals.
The witch and Puck is the only ones that should stay with him after elfhiem. He wont ever be able to get his revenge on Griffith if he has to protect so many people as he does now. Just look at how long it takes for him to handle small monsters just cause of he must protect them. While before when there was only him and Puck he would have finished these monster a long time ago. He would be go Berserk and clear the way in minutes.
About Griffith i dont think he cared so much about Guts friendship when he left him,i think he mostly were angry that he lost a great weapon for his goals.
If Griffith truly thought he was better than all of his friend including Guts then they can never have been friends,they only thought that but not Griffith.
I think he feels he belongs in a battlefield.
Now he doesnt have his dream anymore of becoming a stronger warrior now there is only revenge.
As someone said even if his new friends has made him kinder,less of a jerk as he was when he met Puck. They still annoy me cause they are in the way of his goals.
The witch and Puck is the only ones that should stay with him after elfhiem. He wont ever be able to get his revenge on Griffith if he has to protect so many people as he does now. Just look at how long it takes for him to handle small monsters just cause of he must protect them. While before when there was only him and Puck he would have finished these monster a long time ago. He would be go Berserk and clear the way in minutes.
About Griffith i dont think he cared so much about Guts friendship when he left him,i think he mostly were angry that he lost a great weapon for his goals.
If Griffith truly thought he was better than all of his friend including Guts then they can never have been friends,they only thought that but not Griffith.
The ink of a scholar is worth a thousand times more than the blood of the martyr- The Quran
Wow, that's pretty awesome, I completely agree with Shisho. Well said friend. I think the reason I agree so strongly, is because we both have such keen sense of insight, and we can just both see it. I mean, I've been saying those same types of things about Gatts and Griffith since I joined EG. I really believe the things he said is the truth of their relationship, and how it was intended by Miura. Griffith cared for many of his men, especially the core characters of the Hawks, whether he admitted it or not. As humans we don't tend to hold to our own ideals 100%. Even Griffith wasn't perfect.
Well, I think Griffith's wrong in this. Those are his values speaking, which fail to see humanity as a good quality. And Guts may yet to have found a dream, but it doesn't mean he won't. Maybe he's blindly being driven to one, a purpose, which right now is very simple. Revenge. But maybe that purpose transforms with the situation, and Guts is offered to lead the Elf land as a force against the Band of the Hawk, who threatens all the elemental forces. Then he would have a dream, an ambition equal to Griffith. He would be forced to think, to strategize, to develop as a character and warrior.ZoddsNo1Fan wrote:P.S., Griffeth states, "Some people see only life and death. They are dead because they have no dreams." Is this true for Guts? Is this all Guts is driven to do? All he sees is death, he kills in his rage and forges on for revenge. Is it true that Guts has no dreams? I belive that this is true.
He's already beginning to shed that lone swordsman image. Maybe this is done with purpose, as he soon will have a greater role in being a leader. And more than that, it allows him to be a direct enemy to Griffith, worthy of being acknowledging by him. It also allows for Guts to be a very different person than Griffith, who like I said, uses his comrades as weapons. His army could fight harder for him, due to their love. We don't know the new Band of the Hawk's loyalty to a very ideally-driven Griffith. It also would explain what Miura was thinking when writing this. As he said, he watched a lot of news, observing it in a very objective manner. Maybe these are the two things he decided to pit against and with each other at times. Binding them and showing visibly where they tear. Humanity and values.
Last edited by J2 Cool on Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:03 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Buzkashi
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Griffith is just like the poloticians of today. I mean hes a machavelian thinker. Sure he probably made some relationships with some of his men but it doesnt stop the fact that he saw most of them as "tools" to accomplish his final goal. Sure some may say that he's evil because he killed most of the hawks during the eclipse, but he was a broken man. The only thing keeping him alive was his dreams and when void offered it all to him of course he was going to take it. "The ends justify the means"
A little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion.
-Sir Francis Bacon, Of Atheism <---Did I make this my sig? This shits gay as fuck.
-Sir Francis Bacon, Of Atheism <---Did I make this my sig? This shits gay as fuck.
Yeah, Griffith was definitely under some series stress when he made his decision to sacrifice the Hawks.
As for Gatts, I believe he has a dream, which is to make a peaceful life for Casca and himself. Not to say he can't still fight, but to exist in a world without the God Hand, or any of the vile creations of Idea.
As for Gatts, I believe he has a dream, which is to make a peaceful life for Casca and himself. Not to say he can't still fight, but to exist in a world without the God Hand, or any of the vile creations of Idea.
Well, what was it that Idea said in the lost chapter? What did we learn? That it is the impulses and subconcious of the people... Living in a world without the vile creations of Idea. Maybe it would take the effort and inspiration of Guts in a war to change people's hope, if they're at all changeable. Living in the grief Griffith and the Band of the Hawk would provide if they ruled, to the hope brought on by someone willing to fight. I'm wondering if the overall Idea could possibly be changed by the influence of many. Because you can't directly destroy it. That's impossible. But it is possible to change the psyche of a world. A ruling Griffith could make it a great ammount worse, but saving a world from him or making a courageous attempt could redeem people's psyche maybe. Just a thought.Starnum wrote:Yeah, Griffith was definitely under some series stress when he made his decision to sacrifice the Hawks.
As for Gatts, I believe he has a dream, which is to make a peaceful life for Casca and himself. Not to say he can't still fight, but to exist in a world without the God Hand, or any of the vile creations of Idea.
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Messatsu
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Hum about destroying idea's creations, namely the godhand, i don't think simply destroying them will make them go away. Why? well IMO since the godhand are incarnations of negative emotions or aspects of the human psyche, wouldn't it be reasonable to think that destroying any physical manifestation of them would only temporarily disable the godhand. They would either later return as themselves once again their power reinforced by the negative feelings of human beings, or it would be another person that takes up their respective profiles.
Also this would not free Guts from his and Casca's doomed fate, indeed applying only brute force to the situation would not guarantee that the problem will be solved at all. If i remember correctly when idea described presented himself to griffith he said he was a manifestation of strong evil that exists in peoples hearths. Since he is the creator of the godhand it would be safe to assume that if you where to say, CHANGE idea thru the the link that exist between humanity's soul and the ethereal world, would that in effect rid the maelstrom of the malign consciences that exist within?
Well in the end i hope Miura does have a direction he wants to go with this and that hes not just steering blind.
Pretty good topic guys keep this up and i may actually stop lurking :p
Also this would not free Guts from his and Casca's doomed fate, indeed applying only brute force to the situation would not guarantee that the problem will be solved at all. If i remember correctly when idea described presented himself to griffith he said he was a manifestation of strong evil that exists in peoples hearths. Since he is the creator of the godhand it would be safe to assume that if you where to say, CHANGE idea thru the the link that exist between humanity's soul and the ethereal world, would that in effect rid the maelstrom of the malign consciences that exist within?
Well in the end i hope Miura does have a direction he wants to go with this and that hes not just steering blind.
Pretty good topic guys keep this up and i may actually stop lurking :p
True, that's what I meant. Brute physical strength being used against Griffith or Idea is pointless. UNLESS it can inspire hope or other redeeming qualities in human's subconcious. Say a glimmer of white light in a dark world ruled by Griffith. If someone's willing to fight in hopelessly against him, maybe he won't believe there's hope, but others less knowledgable begin to think there is. This would be a change of overall subconcious. And Guts have faught in hopelessness all his life. Nobody BUT him would be willing to inspire hope in others by himself taking the burden. Remember, most of the group that follows him says he was the one shining beacon of light. The one hope during Griffith's rebirth. I think he could do it again, on a larger scale. Maybe in a world where the stakes are higher, a world war type atmosphere. That's the only solution to Idea that I've thought of.
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ZoddsNo1Fan
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Ok, first off, about Guts dream and or future role in Berserk. In chapter 256 Roderick calls Guts a General. Is there a chance that Guts will become a leader? Another thing, about the curse of the marked, and their always being hunted the rest of their lives. They are journying to Elf Helm to see if the Elf king can lift Caskas curse. Is there a possibility that the elf king can do what the witch in the forest could not and destroy the mark totaly, making it a possibility for Guts to rest?
Yeah, I just see a lot of premonitions of people looking at Guts as a leader, and I think it will lead to something greater. Miura is certainly not blind in his story. That's what I believe the future to hold for Berserk. And no, I don't think Guts will be allowed to rest this early. I think the brand will stick with him until Idea is changed or The Godhands no longer exist as they currently do. I think what will happen is they go to cure Caska, and are suprised when they have a request in return. For Guts and Casca to lead their army. And around that same time, the Kushans may be getting completely crushed, which would leave The Band of the Hawk to their next objective. Taking out witches the like of the Forest witch. The Elf land would be quite an open target without some type of defense. For the Forest, they had no time to plan. I think the Elves will be ready, and won't go down so easily. Guts being more of a general to them, to strategize and prepare for the Band of the Hawk would go a long way to giving them a viable chance.ZoddsNo1Fan wrote:Ok, first off, about Guts dream and or future role in Berserk. In chapter 256 Roderick calls Guts a General. Is there a chance that Guts will become a leader? Another thing, about the curse of the marked, and their always being hunted the rest of their lives. They are journying to Elf Helm to see if the Elf king can lift Caskas curse. Is there a possibility that the elf king can do what the witch in the forest could not and destroy the mark totaly, making it a possibility for Guts to rest?
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Skullkracker
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Sandman
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Well here is a relationship tie for you... they started out as enemies, then comrades, now they are sacrifce and God. Now is it possible that Griffith might have a deeper conection to Guts more then he knows. Just think about it how did Griffith know where to find the Witches house? I bet he can sense what Guts is thinking or at least what he is doing where he is and what his next move is. Griffith knows that he has a magic user, I wonder what else he knows. FUCKING GRIFFITH!!!
Thank you sir, may I have another
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Skullkracker
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