Ch 261

Post by **TheDrizzit** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 5:43 am

Ah ha! See I haven't watched the anime in a while so I couldn't remember which way it went. I just like the idea of Guts looking at fate and whatever forces are saying "You have to do this" and him just smirking and swinging his sword. ^_^ Guts is just a badass in my mind.

Post by **Starnum** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 4:33 pm

Well, it's my belief that Gatts isn't caught in Fate like everyone else. Heh, not since the eclipse, and that's mainly thanks to SK. Yeah, Idea planned for him to die, and as we all know, Idea controls fate. Gatts just wouldn't go down, and then SK showed up and saved their asses. That's why SK calls him the struggler. So it looks like I agree with Felony...heh, that's rare. We've discussed this before though *shrugs*.

Post by **Ayanami** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 6:59 pm

Starnum wrote:Well, it's my belief that Gatts isn't caught in Fate like everyone else. Heh, not since the eclipse, and that's mainly thanks to SK. Yeah, Idea planned for him to die, and as we all know, Idea controls fate. Gatts just wouldn't go down, and then SK showed up and saved their asses. That's why SK calls him the struggler. So it looks like I agree with Felony...heh, that's rare. We've discussed this before though *shrugs*.

Agree with Felony, isn't he pushing that Guts is bound by fate?

Post by **MrFelony** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 7:21 pm

i am

. he struggles against it, but is bound by it and beats it...cause thats his destiny hehe.

Post by **Ayanami** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 8:29 pm

MrFelony wrote:i am . he struggles against it, but is bound by it and beats it...cause thats his destiny hehe.

I think Guts is outside the Idea's Fate.

Post by **panasonic** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 8:42 pm

same, idea wouldnt have exactly predicted that guts would survive the eclipse

Post by **MrFelony** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:02 am

how do you know that? I think that is more dependent on whether or not SK is under fate's web. It wasnt Guts who saved himself, it was SK afterall

. If you look at a lot of whats been goign on, guts is being stringed along. first the eclipse, where he is saved. the first apostle after the eclipse where he discovers the dragonslayer...then when his child appears to him and warns him of casca's danger. the way guts has been raised is forming him into a person who will react to certain circumstances in cerain ways.

isn't idea the result of human desires and what not? I might have a skewed view of what he is (if so feel free to correct me) Any way, one strong human desire is salvation. its why people flock towards religious ideas because their belief of salvation through belief in a higher being. well in this case, if guts didnt exist then the people wont be saved, because i predict that griffith is going to turn evil or reward his apostles with power (that they'll abuse) after he achieves his kingdom (much like the beginning of the anime) and guts will be the one who is destined to save the people. though at this point everything seems like it can go so many different directions...depending on how many more volumes muira puts out. Also, how many people think Griffith=black hawk disguised at white and Guts=White mistaken for black?

Post by **ucrzymofo87** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 2:18 am

i agree with mr felony that griffith is the black hawk in disguise as white and guts is the opposite because in the end isnt guts the real savior of the world trying to free the people of the apostles' tyranny?

Post by **MrFelony** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 2:27 am

well he isnt tyrannical yet, but i feel he will be. at the moment he is probably a perfect ruler...

Post by **ucrzymofo87** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 2:32 am

well griffith is a demon, and demons aren't renown for being good

Post by **Necromancer** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:21 am

"Demon", It's funny how the names are used in Miuras work, the demons are called godhand and angels.

And it's right that idea is formed by human desire. He is formed by the poeples believe in a god.
That he is "evil" could be because most church members in medieval times were like "confess or you'll be slaughtered" and so many people do not truly believe but they fear god.

Post by **Ayanami** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:52 am

Who said Skull Knight is bound by Idea's Fate?

There is still a lot of information being revealed in Berserk. Like the whole Ethereal world. Perhaps what Guts is going through is some what bound to the time spiral that Flora was talking about.

If every thing went cookie cutter according to the laws of fate, then Guts and Caska would be dead.

Post by **Artezul** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:08 am

It's presumed SK also has the curse brand, he was destined to be someone else's sacrifice. He is alive because he somehow busted his way out, or someone intervined. So it's likely he is outside of Idea's designs.

My stake on this is that SK's horse is under Idea's indirect control. That flying horse busted into the eclipse where SK was, and it's the same flying horse SK used to bust into the eclipse Gutts was in. Therefore, they are all stlll subtly being controlled by Idea; through the flying horse of course.

Post by **MrFelony** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:55 am

i never said he is under Idea's manipulation, just that Guts wasnt the one who fought against fate to save himself in that situation...well he did in a ways...but it was SK who saved him from the eclipse. and actually thats what i believe, the time spiral that is. Everything in Berserk seems very "cyclical." and im not saying that it was their fate to die in the eclipse. Im saying that it was their fate/destiny to survive and it is guts fate to struggle the way he has been. im saying he is fated to do the opposite of what is supposed to happen. so as where you see it as Guts defying fate, I see it as him embracing his destiny.

Post by **Ayanami** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:08 am

Idea is supposed to be the mother fucking grand daddy of fate in Berserk correct? And the god hand helps fate stay in check and all that shit according to Idea. If all this jazz is true, then why would Guts escaping the eclipse be his destiny or fate?

If Guts was bound by fate in the Berserk world, then he would be dead. End of god damn story. Unless Miura releases some new info that the god hand actually has no relation to idea or something.

Perhaps there is something else I am missing here, but you will have to clarify for me see your view properly.

Post by **Artezul** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:16 am

It's mostly point of view but, I don't think Gutts has that much going on in his mind.

Post by **Starnum** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:21 am

Oh, then I don't agree with Felony. Heh, should've know. Yeah, I also think that Gatts is a pretty deep guy. Don't take him lightly.

Post by **Artezul** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:26 am

It's likely that he has a lot to dwell on, no doubt. I just don't think of him the heroic type to be "embracing his destiny," or having higher morals, etc.

Post by **Wandering_Mystic** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:36 am

I've always understood that just by the fact that Guts survived birth from his mother's hanging corpse that he was already somehow beyond normal laws governing "fate".

All the things that happen to Guts along the way to make him stronger or prepare him for his ordeals are in my view not things that were placed there for him, but results of him struggling to create his own destiny, which is different from a preordained result predicted from an external source (i.e. Idea, fate, etc).

By the same token, he is not the only one doing this, but is merely the one who struggles the most, and therefore the most visible within the story. For example, I can see Godo's forgings as his own way of making his own path and listening to his intuition. He made the Dragonslayer not out of practicality, but out of some place in his soul that screamed for expression. Was the sword fated by some other force to be created at his hands, or was it due to Godo's strength to stay true to his passion for the sparks of the smithy? I don't think there is an obvious answer, but I find it interesting nonetheless.

Another more clear example is perhaps Farnese. She was sculpted in her upbringing and experience to be some kind of unpredictable monster, a fanatic who destroy things and even have a chance to kill Guts (through the coincidence of a lot of other circumstances of course). Yet when she had Guts in her power, she didn't kill him, but rather she was changed, as if her own desire to be free and choose her own path was awakened and encouraged by Guts overwhelming persona.

But that's what's great about a good story. The interpretation depends on what the reader or listener can draw out from within themselves. No interpretation can be wrong if it fits you for the time being, I feel at least. And interpretations change only as you yourself do

Post by **Skullkracker** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:50 am

can't you see?!?!?!?
the answer is all in the Matrix

the anomalies generated by fate are all embodied in Guts
he is the chosen one!
he's gonna strike down on the God Hand

Post by **ucrzymofo87** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 2:49 pm

Necromancer wrote:"Demon", It's funny how the names are used in Miuras work, the demons are called godhand and angels.

demons call themselves angels because they can fool the feable minded that way by tricking people into thinking they're a force for good

Post by **MrFelony** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:15 pm

hehe i think part of the reason why i follow the "guts is bound by fate" idea is that I think it fits the tragic nature of the story. No matter what guts does, he is following this path that will lead him down to the tragic ending i think Berserk will have...

and to clarify about why i believe guts was fated to escape. I dont think Idea gives 2 shits for the Godhand...what his job is to do is weave along events and what not according to the desires of the people (in my minds eye). To help support the greed and evils found in humans he has created the Godhand, Guts was created to oppose them. Idea has to have this "hero" in the situation because i think its a strong part of the human desire is to have a hero but also an enemy. at the moment guts plays the role of the enemy and griffith the hero (b/c both are confused for being different hawks). so I believe that guts was destined to be the opposition to the godhand...hence why he manages to survive all these amazing scenarios

Post by **Wandering_Mystic** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:54 pm

what you say may be possible, since we know so little about Idea. Personally, I've found too many references or suggestions of the apostles and God Hand seeming to be so certain with their own inside knowledge about how things are supposed to be happening.

Post by **MrFelony** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:01 pm

well I think that they are just being manipulated by Idea. Its sort of like in any movie where all the big bad guy's followers are like "save meeee!!" and the BBG is like "did you actually believe i cared for you?" I think he is just using him for his long term goals.

Post by **newbified** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:44 pm

The only problem is, with matters such as fate it's almost impossible to say that so and so was destined to die, and therefore so and so is able to escape fate, since it's easy for those who defend the idea of Gatts being controlled by fate to merely say that he was destined to survive, and fate has brought him through the constant twists and turns up to this point.

We had a debate way back when while I was in high school about predestination/fate/destiny. The destiny would simply say everything happens for a reason, and everyone is bound and governed by fate, while no matter how the other side approached it, the fate side would simply retort at the end that it was how fate designed that situation.

Now the main problem here, is how do you win against an ideal, that basically is described as "A final result or consequence; an outcome."? No matter what happens in the manga, unless Miura produces something that definitively says that those in his manga aren't all bound by fate, it's a hopeless arguement in my opinion. It's easy to say that Gatts survived the Eclipse just because of his will to survive (but we know it was SK) and that he's struggled on against fate. But it's much simpler for those against the idea that man can create his own destiny, to simply say this is Gatts' fate unfolding. Everything up to this point was predestined, as random as his escapes have been.

God...what is it with me and making long incoherent posts...?