Waiting on Miura is a bitch

[turkey]

@papasith
I'm going to attempt to be as objective as I can. I think you also misunderstand what I meant when I called reincarnated Griffith shallow during that ordeal with the Kushan. I considered his character shallow then, as it didn't really try to expound upon who Griffith now was as a character. We only got to guess as to what that character is like. I guess I could say that he seemed very one dimensional as we could only get any real sense of what he was like based upon the obviously fake persona he chose to adopt, a la conquering hero. He obviously changed quite a bit from previous times in the story, yet, I do not know him. He is now a stranger to me, despite the other meaningful experiences that have lead up to that.

I would also make something clear, I am only displeased with the events coming after they set out from the forest village where they met Schierke. That's when I believe the quality to start declining.

@Aluja
I've read it a couple times just straight through, and add that to the times I've just skimmed over certain parts. It's enough to get a feel for the story, I think.

@SilentSnake
First, I think that quote was taken near the end of his time with the Band, so why do you think it still serves any relevance to Guts' character now? Guts is pretty clear that they risk tagging along with him at their own peril. He, also, said something to the effect; "why am I letting them come with me? not that long ago I would have told them to go to hell?" Then he looks towards Caska, who he was having a very difficult time getting along with, and we are left with that. This was when Farnese asks to join.
You may be misinterpreting things between him and Farnese, she had done a great deal for him, and is it so surprising that he would rather take her word for it than Serpicos? Serpico, after all, made it clear he didn't want to be in the company of Guts.
I can't remember the exactly what the talk was about when Godo says that, but alas, that was Godo that said it, not Guts... so, am I missing something or are you assuming because Godo says it, Guts must also think the same way??

@Starnum
I guess that is true, I get that now. There are some here that enjoyed that part, so to each his own.

I never said the art wasn't important, it can be utterly critical in portraying these characters in ways words cannot. However, if its aim is not at all to develop our understanding of the character, but to dazzle us with the epic clash between them, instead of providing insight into the characters themselves. Well, then we are left with really what we began with, it doesn't really add anything in that respect. I am saying that Miura had stopped developing the new Grifffith, when that character could have been such a rich exciting creation. It's almost like it wasn't even a character at all, just a bunch of pictures of what could be a character if the author took any time to develop him beyond superficial levels

I have to agree though that it was an essential part of taking the story where Miura wants it to go, I was just saying it takes more to hold my interest then pretty art, I kinda need some substance in the form of engaging characters, which as I've said I feel this segment is lacking.

Hehe. I was not even going to try and put other fantasy manga/comics in the same league as Berserk. I will say that it is the best one out there, but in my mind, at least, that doesn't say a whole lot. It is a rather unique case.
Right now I am into Warhammer fantasy novels, so I am working on this list from amazon. I can attest that a few of these have more brilliant stories/main characters then Berserk, but I shouldn't really diss Berserk as it is still one of my favorites.

http://www.amazon.com/Reviews-Warhammer ... 9QRSVF87ZJ

I tried to specify the exact point where I feel the berserk story starts going downhill. Everything before then, yes, is grad A material. No doubt in my mind.

Some of these character have great potential and have already proven themselves intriguing. However, that is falling out of favor for the shallow depictions that Miura seems to enjoy using as of late. Also, I agree with you that it is a good thing introducing new characters, so long as they aren't hapless bumbling buffoons with such witty comments that we are graced with from the likes of Isidro and Puck .

I pose this question, do you not think that the characters have grown a bit stale, specifically Farnese. I was a bit disappointed by how fast she changed into this ditzy/infantile shadow of herself, but hey, that's just my opinion. If you appreciate the characters as they are now, then I guess it is just a matter of personal taste.

Guts still has it.

[MournfulWoods]

do you not think that the characters have grown a bit stale, specifically Farnese. I was a bit disappointed by how fast she changed into this ditzy/infantile shadow of herself

Turkey, I think we might get back to some more good character development once Miura has setted up the new status of the universe. Theses past chapters have been more about positioning characters. I consider it a shifting point necessary for continuation of the characters stories. Miura had to move Guts and co to elfheim and had to setup Griffith in a position of power to setup Fantasia. He needed to put a bit more action. I think after that the characters will be able to develop from the new plot elements and new balance of power.

Particularly looking forward to Casca's possible 'healing' and how it could totally shift the position of Farnese in the group.

You said it, it's taking so long between chapters, maybe looking back at it with a bird eye's view we'll se how this has pushed the story somewhere else for the characters. Maybe.

[Starnum]

I pose this question, do you not think that the characters have grown a bit stale

Perhaps as of late, but...

I think we might get back to some more good character development once Miura has setted up the new status of the universe. Theses past chapters have been more about positioning characters. I consider it a shifting point necessary for continuation of the characters stories. Miura had to move Guts and co to elfheim and had to setup Griffith in a position of power to setup Fantasia. He needed to put a bit more action. I think after that the characters will be able to develop from the new plot elements and new balance of power.

...I agree with this.

[SilentSnake]

@SilentSnake
First, I think that quote was taken near the end of his time with the Band, so why do you think it still serves any relevance to Guts' character now? Guts is pretty clear that they risk tagging along with him at their own peril. He, also, said something to the effect; "why am I letting them come with me? not that long ago I would have told them to go to hell?" Then he looks towards Caska, who he was having a very difficult time getting along with, and we are left with that. This was when Farnese asks to join.
You may be misinterpreting things between him and Farnese, she had done a great deal for him, and is it so surprising that he would rather take her word for it than Serpicos? Serpico, after all, made it clear he didn't want to be in the company of Guts.
I can't remember the exactly what the talk was about when Godo says that, but alas, that was Godo that said it, not Guts... so, am I missing something or are you assuming because Godo says it, Guts must also think the same way??

It serves because it was a lesson he learned the hard way. It shows a general change in his character and stance towards having companions. After all he went through he is supposed to simply disregard it? What's the point of character development then?
Godo's quote was to back up this message, not to put words into Guts' mouth.
I don't misinterpret things between him and Farnese, there was a lot of development between Guts and his new companions so I guess you do miss something. I don't claim that Guts suddenly went all goodie-goodie about everyone and he WAS sceptic, but it is clearly visible in the manga that the group tightens their bonds. To be honest, after all they went through together it would be strange if it was otherwise.

Simply put - Guts learns the value of companions, he is still a cold-blooded killer, but he does have feelings for Caska, so why would he not be allowed to care about others? He started as a guy who cared only about himself and after years of fucked up experiences and 313 chapters you're trying to say he learned NOTHING?

I mean, really? Let's kill others when Caska is back to her senses cause then, they're not needed anymore. YARR!

[Aetherfukz]

Yeah, after finally seeing that he really liked having comrades/friends in the hawks (the I've had it all along quote above) they all got taken from him in the worst possible way. After that he was basically a coldblooded killer not caring for anything, well maybe a bit for Caske, but all about revenge and hatred. But he changed back.

The defining moment, for me, when Guts accepts his new comrades was when they came back to the town after saving Caska and Farnese from the trolls. Upon arriving and seeing the party, Guts has a flashback of the hawks, and the next page he thinks to himself

"Comrades, huh? Who'd ever thought I'd have them again."

And on the beach, we could see that he cared about Schierke and how she felt. He maybe completel neutral (or worse) when it comes to Serpico but that feeling is mutual. He cares about Farnese because she helped him alot with, and cares for, Caska. And I think he sees alot of himself in Isidoro. Think about it, before the childhood rape, Guts was all about impressing Gambino and trying to get his attention and praise. Pretty much how Isidoro behaves with Guts now. For Guts of course it all went downhill from there until he met the hawks. Isidoro still is a (rather) happy and innocent (as far as he can be in a crapsack world like berserk) child that didn't have to go through such a trauma and probably sees everything still as a huge adventure - because after all he can count on Guts. Why? Because Guts can count on Isidoro. It wasn't like that with Guts and Gambino. Gambino thought pretty much nothing of him (that and that he indirectly killed his lover) and for Guts Gambino was a father figure.

[Rolos]

You’re serious. You don’t like the new Griffith because he feels distant. You’re saying that.
In a serious manner.
…
Ok, this seems like a job for Explaining-the-obvious man.

Nananananaaa! He comes from the place, oh yes, he comes from a place, that is to say, a location on which he used to be located but now he’s not because he has left in order to come here, the place he’s coming tooooooo~
Explaining-the-obvious man!

“Hello fella! What’s your name? Turkey?
Well, hello Turkey! How have you been? Bitter, short-sighted and ill-disposed towards anything you come across in a futile attempt to seem cultured and interesting? Hehehe, Turkey, you’ll never change. Not that anyone wants you too, you’re awesome the way you are.
There is a little problem, though. According to your fellow forum members, the last victim of your caustic remarks was that beautiful beast of manganess, Berserk. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, of course, a work incapable of withstanding critic attacks wouldn’t be worth the paper it’s printed on, no, what seems to be upsetting some people is the basis on which you’re accusing it of “being in a steady decline towards average-dom”.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t that basis consist mainly on diatribes about how distant and impersonal Griffith feels, thus exemplifying a general trend in Berserk’s last chapters to devote very little time to characterization?
That’s nonsense, turkeyboy! If you’re not convinced, let’s just state a bunch of obvious facts about berserk, and see what conclusions we can draw:

-It’s impossible to elaborate on a fundamentally different character beyond just stressing the point that it is different.
-Griffith is a god of nigh infinite power that exist on an existential level so superior, so above anything else, that no can grasp just how different he is, much less understand him.
-Griffith has grown distant, strange and untouchable to us, the readers, in the last arc. He has done so through his actions, attitudes and effect on the world. Everything about him seems fantastic, unrealistic, alien.
-Everything he does has monumental proportions, everything he says changes people’s lives, and we have no idea what he’s thinking.
-Most chapters in the last few months have been devoted solely to Griffith and his actions.
-Most chapters in the last year were focused on the fundamental changes the setting is going through due to Griffith’s rebirth.
-Said chapters conform about 1/20 of Berserk.
- If one were to compare berserk with a classic work like LOTR, and decided to judge both by randomly selecting 1/20 of them, he’d probably consider the two of them mediocre.
-Only an idiot would do that.
-Idiots are useful because they force the rest of the world to think.

Now, turkey, my boy, don’t you think it should be fairly obvious that not only were the “Griffith chapters” good at establishing the “new Griffith” character as the aloof, incomprehensible creature whose motives transcend human understanding (making it clear that you cannot understand him counts characterization, albeit a very subtle kind) but that they are in fact, very good chapters when considered as part of a whole?

You don’t?
Oh…then I guess you’re…

Ahem.

I don’t think can do much here.

Up, up and away!"


P.S. The Warhammer 40k novels are fun (I'm thinking "Ciaphas Cain: hero of the Imperium" ), but they're nothing compared to Berserk. Or BLAME!. Or Roadside Picnic. Or, hell, thousands of different works.

[Istvan]

The only thing I'd add, Rolos (or should I say Mr. Explaining-the-obvious man?), is that another part of the reason Griffith feels so distant is that he is so far above everyone around him that he feels pretty much nothing for them. It's not even like the Apostles, who (many of them, anyway) take joy in killing/torturing humans, proving their strength by the time-honored method of oppressing the weak. No, Griffith is on a fundamentally different level now, where pretty much nothing anyone does can touch or surprise him anymore. Which is why the only time we seem him show emotions anymore is when he's interacting with Guts. To me, the total coldness he shows most of the time contrasted with the slight emotion he shows when around Guts, is incredibly powerful characterization that helps make clear (in ways I can't imagine any other method conveying nearly as well) the nature of the changes Griffith has gone through since the Eclipse.

[Aluja]

Wait, he didn't get the part with the new Griffith, is this what's all about?

God Damn...I don't even wanna say it.

[turkey]

I can see why he likes their presence more then he lets on. In time, one by one they will inevitably die or abandon him, considering how likely it is he will continue to come into contact with otherworldly beings, that would be an almost certainty. There have been more than a couple close calls.

I, also, think that Caska will die at some point, but not for a good while.

@Rolos
What? Warhammer 40k? no, those were all Warhammer fantasy, and in my experience I like those far more then what I have read based on 40k. Though, some of the 40k ones were entertaining.

Granted, their are advantages to each types of story telling, but Miura, by todays standards, is average. Well, I admit above average, but nothing too spectacular, especially considering his recent work, which is abysmal imo

Let me get this straight, you are calling me an idiot, based on a hypothetical scenario in which I compare a random 1/20 of LoTR and Berserk and conclude that they are mediocre? O.k.

I am merely stating that the quality of this story is degrading as result of Miura's fading talent, and it is aggravated by his suspending of it

@Istvan
Yes, I believe that that did his character well, before, put into those situations, but he is really boring during the Kushan part, imo, as was that part in general I thought. I seriously forgot about those chapters minutes after reading it. In all honesty, it just felt silly to me

[Rolos]

@Rolos
What? Warhammer 40k? no, those were all Warhammer fantasy, and in my experience I like those far more then what I have read based on 40k. Though, some of the 40k ones were entertaining.

Granted, their are advantages to each types of story telling, but Miura, by todays standards, is average. Well, I admit above average, but nothing too spectacular, especially considering his recent work, which is abysmal imo

Let me get this straight, you are calling me an idiot, based on a hypothetical scenario in which I compare a random 1/20 of LoTR and Berserk and conclude that they are mediocre? O.k.

I am merely stating that the quality of this story is degrading as result of Miura's fading talent, and it is aggravated by his suspending of it

"A stupid person can make only certain, limited types of errors; the mistakes open to a clever fellow are far broader. But to the one who knows how smart he is compared to everyone else, the possibilities for true idiocy are boundless."
~ Vlad Taltos, Iorich

I don't think you're stupid. You're doing something very stupid. (Explaining-The-Obviousman, on the other hand, was straight up accusing you of being mentally retarded. Don't take him too seriously, though, The guy loves ad hominem attacks).
Judging the overall development of a story by a couple of chapters is kinda stupid, especially when those chapters play a vital role in the story as a whole (The antagonist reigning supreme, unopposed, winning, and then...You know where I'm going with this, you're obviously familiar with dramatic conflict).
As for Warhammer non-40k, I was aware of its existence, but always assumed it was retarded offspring of a much more awesome setting. I really can't picture warhammer without Insane Orks and their "Moar dakka!", Space marines, Primarchs, the Warp, etc...
P.S. Found something interesting!
[spoiler]The series takes place on a forgotten Feudal World in the Imperium of Man from Warhammer 40000.

* The setting of Midland is certainly grim, gritty, and vicious enought to fit in the 40K universe. The Godhand are just a local group of greater Slaaneshi or Tzeentchi demons; Griffith's joining them and sacrificing the Band of the Hawk was just his way of embracing Chaos. And Guts? If he ever got rid of that brand on his neck Chaos-taint, he'd probably be prime Space Marine material.
o Additionally, Guts is one of the missing Primarchs. This would explain his prodigious strength and fighting skill, as well as why he doesn't have a mother. The woman he was found underneath just happened to be there when Chaos brought him to Midland, and isn't his real mother. And the Berserker's Armour isn't really a dwarven artifact, it's been cursed with the power of Chaos (probably has the Mark of Khorne on it somewhere).
o Given that there were two missing Primarchs, this troper would surmise that Griffith would therefore be the other missing Primarch. Not only would this explain his and Guts unusually strong bond and their incredible combat strength but tie neatly into the fact that exactly half of the Primarchs fell to the influence of Chaos and "Femto" is nothing more than his appearance as a Daemon Prince.
o And of course... the Idea of Evil? The Warp. They even have similar origin stories.
o This would accomplish the impressive feat of making Berserk more depressing. Even if Guts and his Nakama somehow triumph against all odds against the Godhand and their Apostles and the Inherent In The System misery of Midland in general, the entire galaxy is still going to @#!*% .
o The members of the Godhand represent different Chaos gods. Conrad is likely a Greater Daemon of Nurgle (he manifested himself with a pile of rats once), Slan is obviously a Slaaneshi Daemon, and Void and Ubik and Femto follow Tzeentch. As for Khorne? He clearly decided to be subtle for once and settled for tainting the missing Primarch Guts, meaning that the Beast isn't just a Superpowered Evil Side, it's the manifestation of Khorne's will. Zodd the Immortal is clearly a follower of Khorne.
+ Nope, Zodd is just Zodd, maybe he is just like that, or if you really need an explanation for the demon-side; maybe he just beat a major demon down and stole it's power through the laws of Rule of cool
+ Compare, if you will, Gut's brand◊ to the mark of Khorne. They're just a few lines short of each other.
o The Skull Knight is really a manifestation of the God-Emperor,
o This Troper can totally imagine Farneze as a Sister of Battle, now. I mean, she was once a Knight Templar until recently, and she loooooooves fire. If you know what i mean.[/spoiler]

ETOman Edition: This is kind of an universal Rule when dealing with that retard (who also sucks), TRolos. When he says he has "found" or "discovered" something, it means that something existed before he posted it.

[Istvan]

Rolos, you have clearly put waaay to much thought into this. Mind you, I found it hilarious, but still.

I'm talking about the theory inside the spoiler tag, if that wasn't clear.

[Starnum]

I also think that the section with Griffith and Ganishka was largely about expositioning the plot. The images were powerful and carried enough weight by themselves, without requiring a lot of explanation, unlike a lot of manga. That's the beauty of Berserk. In some cases character development has to give way to the exposition, though usually those two things help to advance one another. Though as has already been stated, we can't really relate to Griffith at this point anyway, and that's the main reason he now seems so aloof as a character.

[Aetherfukz]

Yes, I believe that that did his character well, before, put into those situations, but he is really boring during the Kushan part, imo, as was that part in general I thought. I seriously forgot about those chapters minutes after reading it. In all honesty, it just felt silly to me

HELLLOOO Tom Bombadil!

P.S: @ rolos WIth that train of thought pretty much everything could be a lost world in 40k. At times it was even official canon that Warhammer Fantasy happened on some unknown world inside the Warhammer 40k universe. There's even Neon Genesis Evangelion / Warhammer 40k fanfics . And also, I see "this troper" meaning that was taken off of Tvtropes. And we all know what happens when you open tvtropes...



P.P.S. Though the warhammer explaination does have some points, Warhammer didn't invent the dark fantasy genre, and Berserk and Warhammer started at around the same time, so I'd say they both took their ideas from more older stuff, like kelts, vikings, etc. And your spoiler had one thing missing: Skull Knight would clearly be Malal, the fifth (and Games Workshop purged) Chaos god, who was opposed to the other 4 gods.

Malal is described as being both lupine and crocodilian in appearance, yet still having a humanoid form. Depicted to have six fingers on each hand, five horns and three eyes on his head, Malal is also shown to have sets of teeth that resemble a mix of lions', shark, horse and rat. Malal's symbol is a skull bisected down the middle, one half white, the other half black.

Wild Mass Guessing ftw

[Mail]

o This Troper can totally imagine Farneze as a Sister of Battle, now. I mean, she was once a Knight Templar until recently, and she loooooooves fire. If you know what i mean.

Loved this one


I have to admit the pirate section disappointed me. The only plot developments I saw were showcasing Captain Boy's nautical prowess and letting us see firsthand just how fantasized the world is now. Both of those things could be done without pirates. I fucking hate those pirates. They're comic relief gone horribly awry. By all means make a sea monster, but can why add them? WHY?!?

O.K. I'm ok now. Really.

I also agree with what's been said of Griffith. He's supposed to be godlike now blah blah don't understand him blah. And there was that time in Ganishka where he turned back into Femto to remind us all that he's still an evil SOB.

[Starnum]

Yeah, we haven't seen the last of those pirates. *sigh*

[Istvan]

I think the pirates served two main purposes (three if you count the navel battle highlighting a certain captain's prowess). They provided the first foreshadowing of things to come in this new arc, and they also provided a reason (battle damage) to force Guts and Co. to stop on this dinky little island that normally nobody comes to. Why exactly it's important they stop at this island, and what relevance it will ultimately have to the plot, is still unclear; but I'm confident we'll find out in time. Miura tends to write an extremely tight story, without any real unnecessary elements.

[Superboi]

And here I was thinking the topic was going to become "Hey wait! We're not waiting on Miura anymore? WTF!?! Now we're waiting on EG?? Who the hell divided by 0?"