Berserk 305 - Foundation

[The Herald]

Maybe Shierke, or would that bring up too many legal issues?

[turkey]

nah, but I bet at least Isidro and maybe Schierke, and Farense then takes over the place of magician, will get killed in some despicable, brutal fashion. The atmosphere right now with Guts and Co is to damn happy. That shit aint gonna last very long. never has

[Starnum]

Maybe Shierke, or would that bring up too many legal issues?

No, it's just that nobody wants to see that. At least I hope not. Now Farney, yeah, she's due for another gratuitous sexual scene, heh.

nah, but I bet at least Isidro and maybe Schierke, and Farense then takes over the place of magician, will get killed in some despicable, brutal fashion. The atmosphere right now with Guts and Co is to damn happy. That shit aint gonna last very long. never has

Well I still disagree with that sentiment, I think it's good for Gatts to have friends around him again. Gatts alone as the Black Swordsman is awesome and all, don't get me wrong, but we're beyond that phase of the story. Besides it's good to have other characters around to work with. Anyway, things can get bleak for the crew again without everyone having to die, you know. Don't worry, I'm sure horrible things are to come for Gatts and crew after Skillig island, if not before or during, heh.

[eldur]

Another interesting thing is that Griffith was facing the sunrise when attacking Ganishka, so it's possible that he came from the opposite direction, meaning Vritanis would be in western Europe. Possibly London? Is there any specific passage of time between Griffith going from Vritanis to Wyndham?

Vritanis-->Britain
In the DrPepperPro picture, Britain(in France) and Great Britain are connected...

Well this relation between this world and Berserk world by Miura is only to see which countries are connected. Kushan are a Turkish-Persian-like Empire, but we don't know if Chudah, Midland, Ys,... are France, Germany, Spain, England,.... If they were to be connected we could imagine better how these countries are in Berserk story (because we don't know much about that).

[Rolos]

Another interesting thing is that Griffith was facing the sunrise when attacking Ganishka, so it's possible that he came from the opposite direction, meaning Vritanis would be in western Europe. Possibly London? Is there any specific passage of time between Griffith going from Vritanis to Wyndham?

Vritanis-->Britain
In the DrPepperPro picture, Britain(in France) and Great Britain are connected...

I Wouldnt be so sure about that. I was under the impression that Vritanis is meant to be the Berserk world's equivalent of Venice, or may be a Spanish portuary city. After all, its an independent city state (and a member of the Vatican league) that shows traces of having been under Kushan control.
Venice was once besieged by an Ottoman fleet, and all of Spain was, for hundreds of years, dominated by Moors.

In my opinion, its easier to find parallels between Berserk countries and real world countries if we focus on their socio-political aspects, like the state of their army, their relations between one and another, etc....

[The Herald]

Despite what I've said before, I'm beginning to agree with Istvan and Starnum about how we don't need to compare Berserk to the real world. Though, keeping that in mind, I would like to posit these two theories: 1. Berserk was the real world until the Godhand caused a deviation, one that the Skull Knight was a part of. 2. We only need to use real history as an example to understand what the people of the Berserk world are going through. I personally think that Miura has given it so much realism and closenesses to the real world so that we as an audience would both question and be encaptured by it. You must admit that its closeness intrigues you more than the outright fantasy worlds of Record of Lodoss wars.

[Rolos]

When I talk about parallels, that implies I am talking about two distinctly different things that just happen to share a resemblance.
I think that knowing what elements of the real world are the quasi-equivalents of their Berserk counterparts could give us a fairly accurate understanding of how the world of berserk works.
In the end, its just an educated guess, nothing more than that, but its a fun way to kill time between releases.
I never intended them to be understood as an attempt to prove that the world of berserk is the same as the real world. If someone got that impression, well, they misunderstood my purpose.
I am just talking for myself though, may be some people in this forum do think that the world of berserk is fundamentally the same as our own.

And now for something completely different (I just watched that movie......god, I love Monty Python...Why is it so little known down here in south America? ):

I have been thinking about this for quite a long time....Do you guys think that the worlds could stay merged without Griffith? (I mean his presence, not his actions)

[Istvan]

I have been thinking about this for quite a long time....Do you guys think that the worlds could stay merged without Griffith? (I mean his presence, not his actions)

Interesting question. I would guess...probably not it the long run. If Griffith died (and no one replaced him) I don't think the worlds would just seperate again, but rather might slowly drift apart over a long period of time. Sort of like they seem to have done in the past (there's evidence that the worlds were once much closer but over time the astral world became more and more seperated), they would drift apart. If Griffith disapeared the thing that anchored the worlds together would be gone, though inertia would probably keep them together for a while. Just a guess, but that's how I see it.

[Starnum]

Well I never really thought anyone was trying to say that Berserk is the exact same world as ours. I guess I just find it a little odd to compare a fantasy world to our own, but admittedly there are a lot of similarities. However, we don't even know if the continents are shaped similarly, and with the same frequency as our own world. Even if they are similar, I just don't really like comparing the people to actual cultures, even though most of the ones we've seen bare similarities to real world cultures. They say write what you know, and that appears to be what Miura does. That aside, they did call Vritanis the Vatican, which is in Spain of course. However, I don't think of Vritanis being in Spain or even being all that similar...to me it just means it's the holy center of the world, or at least Midland.

[Deathbringer]

Maybe Shierke, or would that bring up too many legal issues?

Damn, now i remember Wyald raping those kids.

First fictional character i actually got pissed at.

[turkey]

I think Guts will become a lot worse than Wyald as time progresses. I imagine he is destined to become a terrible person, or monster. And Caska will try and stop him from his fate

and be killed in the process, then Guts will realize what he has become

[Starnum]

Yeah, I hated Wyald too.

I don't think Gatts will ever become worse than Wyald. The whole point of the story is his struggle to be better than the things he hunts. I think the Black Swordsman arc was meant to be the part where he struggles the most with his inner demon and manages to claw his way through and be the man he wants to be. Not to say we won't continue to see him struggle with his anger and rage, but now he has friends around him again and a reason to not become a monster, either literally or metaphorically.

[turkey]

Yeah, I hated Wyald too.

I don't think Gatts will ever become worse than Wyald. The whole point of the story is his struggle to be better than the things he hunts. I think the Black Swordsman arc was meant to be the part where he struggles the most with his inner demon and manages to claw his way through and be the man he wants to be. Not to say we won't continue to see him struggle with his anger and rage, but now he has friends around him again and a reason to not become a monster, either literally or metaphorically.

I take him for a much cold hearted bastard than that, the guy is a man slayer. He didn't waver when he tried to kill Serpico. He wouldn't care if Isidro died, nor Farnese. However, if Shierke died then that would mean that the promise to Flora to look after her would be broken.

[Starnum]

I disagree. I think he's doing his best to be a good man, as he always has. He lives by his own code, and despite the men he's killed and horrible things he's done, it's a code of honor. Besides, he holds back on humans that he doesn't have to kill, like in the bar fight scene in the port city. He's killed a lot of men in the past, but now he only focuses on monsters. I think he would definitely care if they died, regardless of how much he'd show it. Also, he didn't kill Serpico. Whether he seemed to waver or not, he still found a way to work it out without just killing him. That's how I see Gatts anyway. He may not be the shining hero that Griffith pretends to be, but to me he's still the good guy.

[Eldo]

I take him for a much cold hearted bastard than that, the guy is a man slayer. He didn't waver when he tried to kill Serpico. He wouldn't care if Isidro died, nor Farnese. However, if Shierke died then that would mean that the promise to Flora to look after her would be broken.

I don't think being heartless means that he will become Wyald.

Serpico didn't waver when he tried to kill Guts too. He's killed many before as well, and if we're following (albeit quite loosely) with your definition, then Serpico is a monster as well. But at the end, Guts spared his life and found Farnese together. Guts didn't need to go after Farnese if he didn't care, but he did. So he does care in some degree.

[Rolos]

That aside, they did call Vritanis the Vatican, which is in Spain of course. However, I don't think of Vritanis being in Spain or even being all that similar...to me it just means it's the holy center of the world, or at least Midland.

We all have our quirks.
You, for what I have gathered in the time I have been around this forum, have a thing for spelling (spelling Nazi was the term?)
Well, I have a similar fixation, but its focused mainly in History and Philosophy. I know (or at least I am under the impression I do) a lot about those two subjects, mainly because I have practically blinded myself reading ebooks about and related to them.
Because of that, I usually relate most of what I read to both philosophy and History. But we all do that kind of thing, right?
Its the subject that varies from person to person. .

However, that fixation is not the reason I am writing this post.

I just wanted to make sure....Did you just say that the Vatican is located in Spain?




PD: Vitrannis is not a holy city, its just a..................hell, I'll post the damn pages:

[Starnum]

Um, okay. Well I just realized that I got confused by what you said in this post...

Another interesting thing is that Griffith was facing the sunrise when attacking Ganishka, so it's possible that he came from the opposite direction, meaning Vritanis would be in western Europe. Possibly London? Is there any specific passage of time between Griffith going from Vritanis to Wyndham?

Vritanis-->Britain
In the DrPepperPro picture, Britain(in France) and Great Britain are connected...

I Wouldnt be so sure about that. I was under the impression that Vritanis is meant to be the Berserk world's equivalent of Venice, or may be a Spanish portuary city. After all, its an independent city state (and a member of the Vatican league) that shows traces of having been under Kushan control.
Venice was once besieged by an Ottoman fleet, and all of Spain was, for hundreds of years, dominated by Moors.

In my opinion, its easier to find parallels between Berserk countries and real world countries if we focus on their socio-political aspects, like the state of their army, their relations between one and another, etc....

I thought I was agreeing with you, but apparently not really. Anyway, of course the Vatican is in Italy, which is what I meant to say, but like I said, I got confused and said the wrong place. I'm an idiot, whatever. In the back of my mind I knew it didn't sound right when I wrote that, but I was being lazy and didn't feel like double-checking the information. I'm usually so nurotic about stuff like that too. Just goes to show the one time I slack off, I screw something up, heh. I can't blame you for calling me on it though. *shrugs*

To be honest I wanted to call someone out the other day for calling Slann, "Slain". You know who you are. I don't, I can't be bothered to remember who said that without double-checking it, no offense, lol. Anyway, I was gonna post and correct the guy, but then I was just like, "Nah, fuck it." So I'm not as bad as I used to be, but it was always more of a name nazi thing, as in spelling the names correctly. I don't really worry about it too much anymore though.

*edit*

It was Facade19 who called Slann, "Slain". Sorry I couldn't remember who it was, but see I went and checked even, lol. It's all good.

[isse-pisse-päron-pung]

Based on that page I think it's quite easy to point out that Vritanis is based on Venice, also called "The City of Water", also during that time Italy was divided in to lesser kingdoms, whom all paid respect to the Vatican, Rome.

We can see familiarities but shouldn't compare after all this is a fictional world, nor does it ever state that this takes place in Europe, or that the Kushan are from Asia, just states they are from the eastern parts of the world I think?

If we would keep on looking to references in the real world we would most likely never stop.

Like this Example:

Gaiseric would most likely be based on Carl the Great who united the French and expanded it's border over the central parts of Europe which would make France the equal term of MIDLAND, While Chudor would be based on German Emperor States, that resisted and got conquered later on.

The place called Elfheim would be something like Atlantis a mythical paradise and tranquility. Which would also mean they are traveling on the Mediterranean sea.

on a sidenote: The chapter was excellent! but expecting focus to go over to Guts soon.

[The Prince]

I'm pretty sure Chuder was a coastal Empire/country. While Midland was....well inland. If we are mapping the Berserk universe, I would definitely see Midland more analogous to Germany, with Chuder being a parallel to Spain/France. If I recall correctly the Chuder army had a crab as part of its banner.

Although the family name Adon associated with his "secret military tactics" handed down to him.....didn't sound Spanish nor French.

[Aetherfukz]

Maybe Shierke, or would that bring up too many legal issues?

Damn, now i remember Wyald raping those kids.

First fictional character i actually got pissed at.

You weren't pissed at Gambino/Donovan before that?

Anyway, concerning the heartless Guts discussion: I don't think Guts is heartless, it's just that the world of Berserk is so fucked up, you pretty much have to be a bastard to survive. Which doesn't imply that he wouldn't care if anyone of his nakama died. The scene when they come back from rescuing Caska and Farnese, where he thinks "Comrades, who'd ever thought I'd have them again?" is really touching I think, and shows that Guts does care about his troupe. Guts isn't a man of showing his emotion openly, but he DID thank Farnese honestly after she looked out for Caska. And Guts saying thank you, and being glad that you're around, is basically saying, hey, you're worthwhile. Probably the furthest apart from him in his group is Serpico, but they have the whole rival with mutual respect thing going on.

While Guts maybe a relentless killing machine, with every muscle in his body spelling death for hundreds of enemies, he still has a, you could say, philosophical and melancholical side too. Which I want to imagine Judeau brought up in him. Shortly before the eclipse when he came back to the Hawks, at the beach with Shierke, in the pub where he defends "his girl" because some drunk spilled beer over her, etc.

Guts already had A WHOLE LOT of character development over the series. But never ever could I see him as a complete monster. To me that's the greatest thing about the story: On one side you have a shining knight in white armor playing the role of the messiah for people, being an all around charming bastard, with the greediest intentions known to man. On the other side our anti hero, clad in black, not showing much emotion and generally being a badass. Yet I know of no single person (as in reader of the manga, not inuniverse) that sides with Griffith.

And also, Guts lived through hell on earth in the eclipse, so being fucked up is pretty much part of the deal (somehow that came out as a really bad pun about the eclipse with the last part of the sentence...)

The only "real" good an honest people I can remember, I can count on one hand: Godo, the redhaired prostitude who's name I can't remember but I think it was Nina (but I also think the blond locked bitch was called Nina?) and her Knight-customer. And those pretty much enforced the role of "There is good in this world Mr. Frodo. And it's worth fighting for!"

[dialdfordesi]

I don't think Guts was even heartless after the eclipse. In the first volumes, Guts tries to play it off like he is completely free of his compassion, but he vomits when the possessed girl kills her own father, and then there's the whole thing with the count's daughter. The only time when he shows no misgivings about killing is when he is trying to kill apostles.

[turkey]

well spoken Aetherfukz

I personally side with Griffith, or at least, what was left of him at the time of the Eclipse. The poor guy had been through years of torture, humiliation, and despair. Only to be rescued by those that once admired him, and in his pitiful state, see that man is gone. That must hurt even more, to see those you once held the respect of, almost like a hero figure, completely shocked by your appearence.
It wasn't enough that he endured those harsh years in the dungeon, he then had to see all he once was, turn into nothing. If there was ever a moment when you saw Griffith at his most vulnerable, it would have been sometime then. What was left of Griffith after the Eclipse, I don't really know, but I think Caska may be able to forgive him, maybe even Guts.

Guts on the other hand, I think is a very deep character. I'm always intrigued when it just shows a frame of him in seclusion, lost in thought. I don't really think he is completely heartless. Definately, it's not that simple. I do see a monster lurking beneath the depths, though. That monster I think will become more pronounced as the series progresses, especially considering now he has the demon dog vying for control of the body. I am rather fond of Guts, but like Griffith, I expect he will lose his humanity and what little good he has the capacity for. It's interesting watching him, though, during the Black Swordsmen part of the story, where he is shown as a man literally haunted by his past.

I also think Caska is truly the only thing stopping him from becoming this monster, or heading down that path.

[Starnum]

Guts on the other hand, I think is a very deep character. I'm always intrigued when it just shows a frame of him in seclusion, lost in thought. I don't really think he is completely heartless. Definately, it's not that simple. I do see a monster lurking beneath the depths, though. That monster I think will become more pronounced as the series progresses, especially considering now he has the demon dog vying for control of the body. I am rather fond of Guts, but like Griffith, I expect he will lose his humanity and what little good he has the capacity for. It's interesting watching him, though, during the Black Swordsmen part of the story, where he is shown as a man literally haunted by his past.

I don't know, to me that would defeat the purpose of the story, but we'll see...

[Eldo]

I personally side with Griffith, or at least, what was left of him at the time of the Eclipse. The poor guy had been through years of torture, humiliation, and despair. Only to be rescued by those that once admired him, and in his pitiful state, see that man is gone. That must hurt even more, to see those you once held the respect of, almost like a hero figure, completely shocked by your appearence.
It wasn't enough that he endured those harsh years in the dungeon, he then had to see all he once was, turn into nothing. If there was ever a moment when you saw Griffith at his most vulnerable, it would have been sometime then. What was left of Griffith after the Eclipse, I don't really know, but I think Caska may be able to forgive him, maybe even Guts.

Do you side with Griffith, or do you sympathise with him? Your reasons for siding with him seems to be...well, in my opinion, not a valid reason. And if you do 'side' with Griffith, do you side with the person who had endured torture, or the charismatic leader before he was tortured?

As for Guts and Casca forgiving him...wouldn't that mean that they just leave Griffith alone to do what he wants? If he forgives Griffith, that means he won't oppose him. And that would pretty much ends the story right there with Griffith to do whatever he likes.

Guts on the other hand, I think is a very deep character. I'm always intrigued when it just shows a frame of him in seclusion, lost in thought. I don't really think he is completely heartless. Definately, it's not that simple. I do see a monster lurking beneath the depths, though. That monster I think will become more pronounced as the series progresses, especially considering now he has the demon dog vying for control of the body. I am rather fond of Guts, but like Griffith, I expect he will lose his humanity and what little good he has the capacity for. It's interesting watching him, though, during the Black Swordsmen part of the story, where he is shown as a man literally haunted by his past.

I don't know, your description of the 'demon dog' sounds like something out of Naruto (with the nine tailed fox in Naruto). My interpretation of the dog was more of the personification of Guts emotional and mental state when he's lost it (in Berserk mode), and does not (to me) mean that the 'demon dog' has a mind of its own (although one chapter seems to implied that his darkness would engulf him). Sure, he'll struggle here and there throughout the journey, but it seems with his companions nearby he'll always be 'tamed'.

[Starnum]

Yeah, I agree with you on both points Eldo. The demon dog is a part of Gatts' own subconscious. Almost as if he's slightly going schizo, but who can blame him. That's what I mean, to me it's always been about a man who struggles to live by his own sense of honor, but struggles with his own dark-side as well. If he were to ever become a complete monster, what would the point be? That he had failed? Then we wouldn't even have an anti-hero, just another villian? I don't know, I just don't see that happening. I believe in Gatts, I think he will somehow persevere to the end. Yeah, I definitely side with Gatts. I used to think Griffith was great, and in some ways I still do. However, like Gatts, I can't forgive him for what he did. To me, he became the ultimate villain in this story, but he's still an amazing character. Maybe more now then ever before, because of how much focus we've seen on him lately. So yeah, I expect Gatts to continue on the path that he's chosen and one day defeat Griffith, so that he can make a life with Casca. Heh, but there's really no telling what's gonna happen in this story. I expect plenty more twists from Miura, and I can't wait to see it all.