Newbie Berserk Discussion Thread

[The Prince]

Not so much of a problem when your sword can cut through time-space.

He made it because he had already encountered the horror of Void's Klien Bottle technique, as it were. It's specifically designed to counter such a thing, obviously.

If it were really that effective, wouldn't the SK just be able to stab Void where/when-ever he felt like it?

[God_Hand_Hater07]

well i think he would if he could, but he hasnt really had the opportunity to find Void again, becasue the only one with a corperal body is Femto, because like you saw with Slann she wasnt really there she just possesed the troll organs so that she could get to Gatts.

[Istvan]

Not so much of a problem when your sword can cut through time-space.

He made it because he had already encountered the horror of Void's Klien Bottle technique, as it were. It's specifically designed to counter such a thing, obviously.

If it were really that effective, wouldn't the SK just be able to stab Void where/when-ever he felt like it?

Probably not. Even leaving aside the difficulty of reaching Void, I doubt that Void is that great a wimp. He probably has lots of other powers besides the ability to bend space, and quite likely has great combat ability in his own right. My view is basically that the sword now makes it possible for SK to fight Void (where he couldn't before because of the space bending), not that it guerantees his victory when he does. Though of course we'll have to wait and see.

[The Prince]

Not so much of a problem when your sword can cut through time-space.

He made it because he had already encountered the horror of Void's Klien Bottle technique, as it were. It's specifically designed to counter such a thing, obviously.

If it were really that effective, wouldn't the SK just be able to stab Void where/when-ever he felt like it?

Probably not. Even leaving aside the difficulty of reaching Void, I doubt that Void is that great a wimp. He probably has lots of other powers besides the ability to bend space, and quite likely has great combat ability in his own right. My view is basically that the sword now makes it possible for SK to fight Void (where he couldn't before because of the space bending), not that it guerantees his victory when he does. Though of course we'll have to wait and see.

Naah....his big brain exposes him, and his eyes are all wired shut. That little old penguin dude with the glasses scares me though, he's truely a sinister demon.

[Rolos]

Yeah, he has this "I know everything you could possibly do and I still dont give a shit" face that really scares the hell out of me.
Nah, but seriously, i dont really think SK expects to be able to defeat Void with the resonance sword, its just that now he *can* injure him. It was probably very traumatic for him, I mean, he entered all almighty and in the end he couldnt do a shit to Void.
SK attitude towards Void now that he has created the resonance sword can be sumarized in ,Quoting Gatts (remember at the hill of swords while fighting Zodd?) "Now I can fight!"

Pd: I just finished reading the 52 pages of posts of this thread and......wow......just.....

[Istvan]

Nah, but seriously, i dont really think SK expects to be able to defeat Void with the resonance sword, its just that now he *can* injure him. It was probably very traumatic for him, I mean, he entered all almighty and in the end he couldnt do a shit to Void.

I doubt it was traumatic for him at all. I mean, given how many Behelits form that sword, he must have been preparing it for a long time, well before the eclipse. I think he more or less predicted how that confrontation would go, and it was more along the lines of a test (you never know, it might work, might as well give it a try) than a truly serious attack. This also explains why he gave up so easily and retreated, he hadn't expected it to work, so when it didn't he simply abandoned the attempt.

[Rolos]

Do you really think he started collecting Behelits BEFORE the eclipse?
As far as I know he entered the Eclipse with the only purpose of killing Void, the rescue of Gatts and Caska was just something spontaneous.

Why bother to fight Zodd and break into a highly dangerous ceremony like the Eclipse just to deliver a blow you know it not gonna land?

That just doesnt make any goddamn sense to me.


Pd: you land a blow, right? Thats how it is supposed to be said when your attack hits the objective?
Sorry about my english, I am not very good at foreign languages.

[Istvan]

Do you really think he started collecting Behelits BEFORE the eclipse?
As far as I know he entered the Eclipse with the only purpose of killing Void, the rescue of Gatts and Caska was just something spontaneous.

Why bother to fight Zodd and break into a highly dangerous ceremony like the Eclipse just to deliver a blow you know it not gonna land?

That just doesnt make any goddamn sense to me.


Pd: you land a blow, right? Thats how it is supposed to be said when your attack hits the objective?
Sorry about my english, I am not very good at foreign languages.

First, yeah "land a blow" is correct.

Look at the number of behelits he has. I think there's a very good chance he's been collecting them since well before the eclipse. After all, you won't find a behelit for every Apostle you kill, after the ceremony they might not even keep them with them (few of the Apostles Gut's killed seemed to have one on them). So he would have had to track down a vast number of Apostles to get that many, probably over many years, not just the one or two since the eclipse.

As for why break into the eclipse, when it's very dangerous and you know it won't work, I think there are two problems with that argument. First, you assume the eclipse was highly dangerous to him. This doesn't seem to be the case, as near as I can tell, Zodd never even scratched him. In fact, the only wound he recieved is from the attack on Void. If the God's Hand mostly stay out of the sacrifice business (and they seem to) than it's entirely possible that from SK's point of view, it wasn't hideously dangerous to enter the eclipse. Somewhat dangerous, sure, but not incredibly so. Second, I don't think he did know the attack wouldn't work, he just suspected that it wouldn't. The point of the whole thing then would be to confirm the nature of Void's defense. This is the kind of information that one wants to be sure of, not merely guessing. So he viewed the eclipse as a chance to test a theory, and when he found out that the theory was correct and he couldn't attack Void with his sword, he retreated, salvaging Guts and Caska along the way because the oportunity presented itself.

[Rolos]

Do you really think he started collecting Behelits BEFORE the eclipse?
As far as I know he entered the Eclipse with the only purpose of killing Void, the rescue of Gatts and Caska was just something spontaneous.

Why bother to fight Zodd and break into a highly dangerous ceremony like the Eclipse just to deliver a blow you know it not gonna land?

That just doesnt make any goddamn sense to me.


Pd: you land a blow, right? Thats how it is supposed to be said when your attack hits the objective?
Sorry about my english, I am not very good at foreign languages.

First, yeah "land a blow" is correct.

Look at the number of behelits he has. I think there's a very good chance he's been collecting them since well before the eclipse. After all, you won't find a behelit for every Apostle you kill, after the ceremony they might not even keep them with them (few of the Apostles Gut's killed seemed to have one on them). So he would have had to track down a vast number of Apostles to get that many, probably over many years, not just the one or two since the eclipse.

As for why break into the eclipse, when it's very dangerous and you know it won't work, I think there are two problems with that argument. First, you assume the eclipse was highly dangerous to him. This doesn't seem to be the case, as near as I can tell, Zodd never even scratched him. In fact, the only wound he recieved is from the attack on Void. If the God's Hand mostly stay out of the sacrifice business (and they seem to) than it's entirely possible that from SK's point of view, it wasn't hideously dangerous to enter the eclipse. Somewhat dangerous, sure, but not incredibly so. Second, I don't think he did know the attack wouldn't work, he just suspected that it wouldn't. The point of the whole thing then would be to confirm the nature of Void's defense. This is the kind of information that one wants to be sure of, not merely guessing. So he viewed the eclipse as a chance to test a theory, and when he found out that the theory was correct and he couldn't attack Void with his sword, he retreated, salvaging Guts and Caska along the way because the oportunity presented itself.

Good point. mmmmm.....You are probably right.

Given that there no point in more discussion about that, what about Zodds attitude towards SK?

I think its kind of pathethic from Zodds part to call SK his old nemesis and stuff like that when we havent seen him even scratch SK a single time. He always confront SK and always get his arm choped.
I know Zodd loves to fight tough guys but, why fight when there are no chances to win?

[The Prince]

Do you really think he started collecting Behelits BEFORE the eclipse?
As far as I know he entered the Eclipse with the only purpose of killing Void, the rescue of Gatts and Caska was just something spontaneous.

Why bother to fight Zodd and break into a highly dangerous ceremony like the Eclipse just to deliver a blow you know it not gonna land?

That just doesnt make any goddamn sense to me.


Pd: you land a blow, right? Thats how it is supposed to be said when your attack hits the objective?
Sorry about my english, I am not very good at foreign languages.

First, yeah "land a blow" is correct.

Look at the number of behelits he has. I think there's a very good chance he's been collecting them since well before the eclipse. After all, you won't find a behelit for every Apostle you kill, after the ceremony they might not even keep them with them (few of the Apostles Gut's killed seemed to have one on them). So he would have had to track down a vast number of Apostles to get that many, probably over many years, not just the one or two since the eclipse.

As for why break into the eclipse, when it's very dangerous and you know it won't work, I think there are two problems with that argument. First, you assume the eclipse was highly dangerous to him. This doesn't seem to be the case, as near as I can tell, Zodd never even scratched him. In fact, the only wound he recieved is from the attack on Void. If the God's Hand mostly stay out of the sacrifice business (and they seem to) than it's entirely possible that from SK's point of view, it wasn't hideously dangerous to enter the eclipse. Somewhat dangerous, sure, but not incredibly so. Second, I don't think he did know the attack wouldn't work, he just suspected that it wouldn't. The point of the whole thing then would be to confirm the nature of Void's defense. This is the kind of information that one wants to be sure of, not merely guessing. So he viewed the eclipse as a chance to test a theory, and when he found out that the theory was correct and he couldn't attack Void with his sword, he retreated, salvaging Guts and Caska along the way because the oportunity presented itself.

Good point. mmmmm.....You are probably right.

Given that there no point in more discussion about that, what about Zodds attitude towards SK?

I think its kind of pathethic from Zodds part to call SK his old nemesis and stuff like that when we havent seen him even scratch SK a single time. He always confront SK and always get his arm choped.
I know Zodd loves to fight tough guys but, why fight when there are no chances to win?

Has the SK ever been scratched? The only two times anyone has ever gotten the better of him seems to be that whiff against Void, and momentarily losing that prostitute leader to the Behelit apostle.

Although we have seen the SK engage Zodd at least three times so far, so why the hell hasn't he managed to lay a mortal wound on Zodd as of yet. What are they doing when fighting, having a war or words?

-BTW....how big do you think Zodd is in his minotaur form? I'd say at least 20ft.

-How many times have you seen the SK off his horse? When he handed Guts and Casca over to Rickert, couple scenes where he picked up Behelits left over from Guts's apostle fights......Faeiry and Snake-Guy aftermaths.......?

[Istvan]

Although we have seen the SK engage Zodd at least three times so far, so why the hell hasn't he managed to lay a mortal wound on Zodd as of yet. What are they doing when fighting, having a war or words?

Probably a couple of reasons. First, Zodd is very good, and he heals at an amazing rate (witness reataching arm in a couple of seconds), so it probably would take a while for even SK to kill him. Second, every time so far their fight has gotten interupted before SK brings about such a conclusion. That's my guess, anyway.

-BTW....how big do you think Zodd is in his minotaur form? I'd say at least 20ft.

Not even close to that big. Take a look at his fights with Guts again, he's probably more along the lines of 10 to 12 feet tall.

[Starnum]

Not so much of a problem when your sword can cut through time-space.

He made it because he had already encountered the horror of Void's Klien Bottle technique, as it were. It's specifically designed to counter such a thing, obviously.

If it were really that effective, wouldn't the SK just be able to stab Void where/when-ever he felt like it?

No, Void is usually in the Abyss, where even SK can't reach him.

[The Prince]

Although we have seen the SK engage Zodd at least three times so far, so why the hell hasn't he managed to lay a mortal wound on Zodd as of yet. What are they doing when fighting, having a war or words?

Probably a couple of reasons. First, Zodd is very good, and he heals at an amazing rate (witness reataching arm in a couple of seconds), so it probably would take a while for even SK to kill him. Second, every time so far their fight has gotten interupted before SK brings about such a conclusion. That's my guess, anyway.

-BTW....how big do you think Zodd is in his minotaur form? I'd say at least 20ft.

Not even close to that big. Take a look at his fights with Guts again, he's probably more along the lines of 10 to 12 feet tall.

In the scene where he impales Wyald, going by scale, he appears much much taller than 12ft.

But I agree in other instances 10-12ft may be a better estimate.

[Rolos]

yeah, its about 4 meters......

Anyway, Zodd a minotaur? I always thought of him as a Classic occidental-type demon, maybe a cross between a lion and a minotaur, but a pure blood minotaur?........ It just doesnt fit. I mean:


Nope....Its has nothing in common, unless you count the horns.

On a sidenote, Who do you think would win, Gatts or Zodd?


Pd: its not a versus post, since we have never seen them fighting each other ever since Gatts got the berserk armor and We DO have all the required information to guess with a fairly high percent of being right.

Pd2: if its still considered a vs post, then fuck it, after all its just the newbies thread.

Pd3: by no means my intention was to offend those who actually like this thread, its just true, whenever you are not sure wether you are gonna burn por Posting it or not, you post here.

[Istvan]

On a sidenote, Who do you think would win, Gatts or Zodd?


Pd: its not a versus post, since we have never seen them fighting each other ever since Gatts got the berserk armor and We DO have all the required information to guess with a fairly high percent of being right.

Pd2: if its still considered a vs post, then fuck it, after all its just the newbies thread.

Pd3: by no means my intention was to offend those who actually like this thread, its just true, whenever you are not sure wether you are gonna burn por Posting it or not, you post here.

In human form, almost certianly Gutts. If Zodd transformed, I'd still bet on him, although the Berserk armor might make it close. Still, I think Zodd would have the edge if both fought all-out.

[Aetherfukz]

yeah, its about 4 meters......

Anyway, Zodd a minotaur? I always thought of him as a Classic occidental-type demon, maybe a cross between a lion and a minotaur, but a pure blood minotaur?........ It just doesnt fit. I mean:

Nope....Its has nothing in common, unless you count the horns.

Indeed, minotaur doesn't just quite fit.
The first thing I thought of when seeing Zodd transform for the first time had nothing to do with a minotaur.

I think Warhammer (Fantasy & 40k) may have borrowed much from Berserk and other likes, when it comes to the Chaos forces. Look at that Bloodthrister of Khorne and tell me it doesn't look like Zodd with a bit more armor:

http://images.gamedev.net/features/art/ ... sketch.jpg

[clonestyle]

yeah, its about 4 meters......

Anyway, Zodd a minotaur? I always thought of him as a Classic occidental-type demon, maybe a cross between a lion and a minotaur, but a pure blood minotaur?........ It just doesnt fit. I mean:

Nope....Its has nothing in common, unless you count the horns.

Indeed, minotaur doesn't just quite fit.
The first thing I thought of when seeing Zodd transform for the first time had nothing to do with a minotaur.

I think Warhammer (Fantasy & 40k) may have borrowed much from Berserk and other likes, when it comes to the Chaos forces. Look at that Bloodthrister of Khorne and tell me it doesn't look like Zodd with a bit more armor:

http://images.gamedev.net/features/art/ ... sketch.jpg

Well, if my sources are correct, Warhammer 40k debuted in '87 and Berkserk (prototype) in '88. Chaos started getting fleshed out in '88 and '90 so I think it's a bit of a stretch to say WH40k got ideas from Berserk, considering Miura only got his first volume published in 1990. Anywho, they do look a little similar but it's just a coincidence. Winged, horned demons aren't really new to the fantasy universe anyhow.

On another note, I've been thinking about the story (not sure if it's been discussed already) and how the whole story seems to revolve on the idea of duality. Can a person be deemed truly "evil" or "good" for his actions, regardless of whatever else he does? Take Griffith/Femto for example. He's a Demon prince now, having sacrificed all his comrades so his dream wouldn't die. Many people would be quick to label him as "evil" but what about the good he's done since the Eclipse? He's pushed back the Kushanian army from invading (in turn saving many civilian lives,) and overall seems to have lent a bit of stability in a chaotic world. Guts, on the other hand, is a "good" person: fighting demons that are terrorizing people, protecting Caska, etc. Will history remember him as an "evil" person if he kills Griffith that's become the new protector of the realm? Of course I don't think the old Guts would care what people will think of him in the future but I do think the new calmer, more emotionally open Guts may realize killing Griffith for the sake of revenge will just mean a whole lot of grief and misery for the common people. I definitely see the possibility of the story flowing in this direction and Guts just may have to try to find a different way to approach this situation. Whether this means giving up his quest for revenge and settling down as a one-handed farmer in the hills with Caska or taking on the Godhand and somehow stripping Griffith of his power, I don't know...but it would be interesting to see something along these lines happen instead of Guts just smacking down Griffith and having done with it.

[Aetherfukz]

Well, if my sources are correct, Warhammer 40k debuted in '87 and Berkserk (prototype) in '88. Chaos started getting fleshed out in '88 and '90 so I think it's a bit of a stretch to say WH40k got ideas from Berserk, considering Miura only got his first volume published in 1990. Anywho, they do look a little similar but it's just a coincidence. Winged, horned demons aren't really new to the fantasy universe anyhow.

Oh yeah. I completely forgot that Warhammer is that old too. Anyho' although it may be coincidence, especially the Chaos side of Warhammer / 40k and the lesser demons that attack Guts every night look kinda similar. But of course every artists gets inspired by something, and those two may just as well have some kind of old text or drawings as sources to flesh out their own imagination of Chaos and demons.

On another note, I've been thinking about the story (not sure if it's been discussed already) and how the whole story seems to revolve on the idea of duality. Can a person be deemed truly "evil" or "good" for his actions, regardless of whatever else he does? Take Griffith/Femto for example. He's a Demon prince now, having sacrificed all his comrades so his dream wouldn't die. Many people would be quick to label him as "evil" but what about the good he's done since the Eclipse? He's pushed back the Kushanian army from invading (in turn saving many civilian lives,) and overall seems to have lent a bit of stability in a chaotic world. Guts, on the other hand, is a "good" person: fighting demons that are terrorizing people, protecting Caska, etc. Will history remember him as an "evil" person if he kills Griffith that's become the new protector of the realm? Of course I don't think the old Guts would care what people will think of him in the future but I do think the new calmer, more emotionally open Guts may realize killing Griffith for the sake of revenge will just mean a whole lot of grief and misery for the common people. I definitely see the possibility of the story flowing in this direction and Guts just may have to try to find a different way to approach this situation. Whether this means giving up his quest for revenge and settling down as a one-handed farmer in the hills with Caska or taking on the Godhand and somehow stripping Griffith of his power, I don't know...but it would be interesting to see something along these lines happen instead of Guts just smacking down Griffith and having done with it.

That's exactly what I love about Berserk so much. Almost none of the charakters are truly evil or good, black or white. Everyone is a shade of grey, just like in the real world. And of course, moral is always set by the beholder. One mans savior might me another mans devil. Look at warlords in history, Hitler, Franco, even Che Guevara and Fidel Castro. For their own people they were shining heroes who stomped the evil other countries. But of course for the other countries, and in cases like Hitler, for the rest of the civilised world, they were demonspawns from hell, so to speak.

Griffith is the real saviour of midland and its people. If the Kushan would have overrun them everyone would be used as cannon fodder, and woman get impregnated by those Daka spawns. And of course the kushan emperor seems really evil and even the kushan themself fear him. But among them are people who don't seem evil, even when seem from a midland point of view. There are kushans in Griffith' army who had a change of heart. And Silat himself doesn't look evil to me - he wants to regain his clan honor which is a rather noble goal - but not at all cost. And after he saw the real emperor and especially what the kushans did to the women to get new Daka soldiers, I think he may as well change to, maybe even change sides some point in the future, at least briefly for a fight or so.

[Istvan]

Of course, all of the annalysis about how Griffith could be viewed as a good person, in light of the way he defends against the Kushans, ignore a key detail. The only reason (as far as we can tell) that the Kushan Emperor exists and was made an Apostle was to give Griffith a foe he could be the "savior" against. Thus ultimately every evil committed by the Kushan's is Griffith's responsibility/fault.

[42ndEndOfTheWorld]

I am 100% with Istvan on this one. We can speculate about pre-eclipse Griffith being a good person (after all he did almost singlehandedly ended a 100 year war ) , but post-eclipse one is another matter. Berserk is not good vs evil story by any means (it's more like evil vs even worse), and is certainly opened to multiple interpretations, but some things, like post-eclipse Griffith being manipulating bastard who created all that mess, are pretty much set in stone.

And about Guts vs Zod: What everybody have to remember is that we have never actually seen fully healed Guts fighting in Berserk armor. First time he used it was immediately after Slan had spiritually and physically cut him, and he has been half dead and half healed ever since. I would like to see fully healed and rested Guts in berserker armor fighting against Zod.

[Aetherfukz]

I am 100% with Istvan on this one. We can speculate about pre-eclipse Griffith being a good person (after all he did almost singlehandedly ended a 100 year war ) , but post-eclipse one is another matter. Berserk is not good vs evil story by any means (it's more like evil vs even worse), and is certainly opened to multiple interpretations, but some things, like post-eclipse Griffith being manipulating bastard who created all that mess, are pretty much set in stone.

I never said Griffith was good, and yes, he is a manipulating bastard. But still, in the eyes of the midland people he appears good and as their saviour. We as the reader may know that truly he is evil but the people in the story don't. And to them Guts also appears as a monster that can only slice people in halves most of the time.

[42ndEndOfTheWorld]

I never said Griffith was good, and yes, he is a manipulating bastard. But still, in the eyes of the midland people he appears good and as their saviour. We as the reader may know that truly he is evil but the people in the story don't. And to them Guts also appears as a monster that can only slice people in halves most of the time.

He appears good, alright, but he is not good. It is not about truth being in the eye of beholder or whatever, it is about people NOT HAVING A FUCKING CLUE.

[The Prince]

I am 100% with Istvan on this one. We can speculate about pre-eclipse Griffith being a good person (after all he did almost singlehandedly ended a 100 year war ) , but post-eclipse one is another matter. Berserk is not good vs evil story by any means (it's more like evil vs even worse), and is certainly opened to multiple interpretations, but some things, like post-eclipse Griffith being manipulating bastard who created all that mess, are pretty much set in stone.

I never said Griffith was good, and yes, he is a manipulating bastard. But still, in the eyes of the midland people he appears good and as their saviour. We as the reader may know that truly he is evil but the people in the story don't. And to them Guts also appears as a monster that can only slice people in halves most of the time.

So what? Most of Midland would consider Scheirke evil as well, for being a witch, etc..etc...

Basically what your saying is that Griffith is charismatic and munipulative....no shit.

That the Midland people buy into his savior/messianic charade, is rather irrelevant. The fact is that he is pretty fuckin evil. Though no longer Femto in body and form, as far as sentient beings go, they are the same. Just so happens at the moment he's battling against something that is evil as well.

The scene where he's gathering up the souls of the dead soldiers in front of the love ones of the deceased is a perfect example. Because he seems so divine in that scene, but what he's actually doing is casting off their souls to hell. Just listen to Griffith's foreboding words, when asked by the knight (Kid) where they were going to.

*And regarding Zodd's minotaur form, it was a description not identifying him as one. Minus the wings, Zodd's pretty much resembles a minotaur-like monster. Basically having bull-like characteristics with a bipedal structure. Even Wyald referred to Zodd as a COW, so the analogy wasn't a stretch by any imagination.

I never said Griffith was good, and yes, he is a manipulating bastard. But still, in the eyes of the midland people he appears good and as their saviour. We as the reader may know that truly he is evil but the people in the story don't. And to them Guts also appears as a monster that can only slice people in halves most of the time.

He appears good, alright, but he is not good. It is not about truth being in the eye of beholder or whatever, it is about people NOT HAVING A FUCKING CLUE.

LMAO!

[Aetherfukz]

He appears good, alright, but he is not good. It is not about truth being in the eye of beholder or whatever, it is about people NOT HAVING A FUCKING CLUE.

Exactly my point. We as the reader with all the background information know that he is indeed evil to the bone. We as scholars/students/historians also know that Hitler was one fucked up evil guy. But the Nazis, especially those commoners who knew nothing about the concentration camps, believed Hitler to be good too.

[Death&Rebirth]

He appears good, alright, but he is not good. It is not about truth being in the eye of beholder or whatever, it is about people NOT HAVING A FUCKING CLUE.

Exactly my point. We as the reader with all the background information know that he is indeed evil to the bone. We as scholars/students/historians also know that Hitler was one fucked up evil guy. But the Nazis, especially those commoners who knew nothing about the concentration camps, believed Hitler to be good too.

Er...no. Most of the German populace feared Hitler and were obligated to comply with his ideology unless they wanted a friendly visited from Gestapo. Also, Hitler was so mad and fearsome, that even their generals tried, unsuccessfully, to make a coup (Operation Valkyrie).