Ch 252

[Arresty]

By the way, don't you guys have lives? Don't you have other things you need to do? Don't you have obligations, or possibly other interests? I swear you guys are almost going in circles. Stop posting so much you bums!

There is an outside world?

[NINJ4]

In order to knock someone out though you need to get them in the head, and seriously the rate he swinsgs that sword, he woudl kill them with a blow to the head.

It doesn't mean that he TRIED to kill them - it just means they we're too weak, his intent was still a ko

And I agree with Starnum (and I hope it has been implied by my posts about the wiping out ppl) - Guts is indifferent to killing, but it is also my opinion that he would rather not unless nessecary.

Guts isn't like a barbarian either - he too is a thinker (however, I refuse to believe that he is like Griffith!), and doing things without getting attention seems to be the way to normally go about things, unless attention is something that was needed. In the case of going at the Vermillions, I think Guts would rather not (create a massacre), not that he couldn't, but because it isn't in his best interests if he could avoid it (it = creating blood bath).

Edit: Also, with that theory of Guts going to convince Farnese - it's gonna be in a subtle way. Probly something like a need to repay her for her effort and stuff. Guts doesn't seem to be the busy-body type, eager to butt into another's business either (he just likes to repay debts and all that honorable stuff) so the convincing will probably have to be assisted by Casca (just by being her helpeless self) and Schrieke.

[Starnum]

Well, the only real comparison between Gatts and Griffith that I had in mind, was their air of leadership.

Oh, and by the way, yes, there is an outside world. You should go check it out.

[NINJ4]

lol, going through berserk withdrawl T-T

Didn't I type somewhere that I wasn't able to check the berserk forum or read berserk for like months before my first post here like a month or so ago? It made my berserk withdrawl symptoms that much worse when I decided to pick up berserk again then wait for next chp

can't wait till raws come out ^^

[Arresty]

Starnum: I have been feeling the same way about Guts and his leadership for some time. The air about him and hte wya people follow him is exaclty how Griffith started off. Poeple follow him because they want to, not cause they are made too.

NINJ4: Yeah he is not the bossy type that woudl be forceful with her coming. He would make it her option, but tell her that they woudl rather have her if she wants to be wiht them, then take the ship.

Also NINJ4, man you and you reading/viewing the raws. It ruins the chapter for you.

Stanum again: Is there really. I might, it just seems so big and scary.

[NINJ4]

lol, not really - I know some japanese enough to know whats happening (got the dictionary handy too ^^) - just not so much as to do translations like EG

[Brainpiercing]

I remember one particular incident when Griffith MADE someone follow him. Guts would never do that, so their leadership IS different. Yes most people followed Griffith voluntarily, but hey, he was always an ambitious bastard, if he wanted something, he got it.

Guts has very few ambitions, half the time he didn't know why he was fighting. Even now his ambitions are purely centered on helping another person, and that is what makes people follow him. (Of course if you make "kill all apostles" an ambition, well, true.) The other reason people follow him seems to be, that he walks the straight path in a mixed up world. Guts rarely has any doubts about good or evil. In fact I don't really believe he thinks about it all too much. But that makes him compelling for people like Farnese, who are confused.

The only person who followed him for no real reason whatsoever (aside of gratitude maybe) is Puck.

[NINJ4]

The way Starnum phrased "air of leadership" seems to imply charisma more then a specific definition or example of leadership

As for the ambition - Guts ambition is to take down Griffith and (dont refute the next one ) to decimate the remaining GodHand

good and evil? Anything that gets in his way is evil - simple huh ? (just think back to the "crush ants" quote)

[Brainpiercing]

The "crush ants" quote is a measure of his desperation at the time. He can't possibly fight all those demon hoardes and still watch out for others. But I think it DID hurt him to see all those people in his path being killed by the demons he attracted. His scorn at the weak was a way to defend himself against those feelings.

[NINJ4]

The crush ants quote wasn't really made out of desparation as much as it was made for the fact, that in his line of business, there are casualties.

And, yes his barfing after the incident shows that his alignment is still good and all

scorning the weak? he meant it, and that disposition wasn't a psychological defense against the innocents he would end up striking down. Just think about how he survived his childhood, and that part makes sense. he did seem however to be upset with himself - upset at his own weakness with that one doctor who was partially eaten.

[Brainpiercing]

He never scorned the weak during his time with the hawks. So I think it did hurt him, and especially if those people helped him.

[|||||||]

Now whats the bigger ambition: getting his own kingdom? oder killing a god? seems both quite huge.

As for guts "air of leadership", it's a really nice discription.
Now let's see....Ishidore follows him because he admires him. shierke because she likes him and has nowhere to go in particular (her elf follows her of course). farnese because he is the one who will never bow down to anyone. serpico is following farnese. I'd say puck follows him because he is interesting. hmmm caska would follow everyone so there is no reason to think about.

As for serpico, I think it's kind of a fighters/warriors friendship. Guts is aware of serpicos strength in battle and therefore one of these opponents he seeks for fighting to the limit. When serpico leaves he says that he wants to fight him again.

Guts isn't a brainless killer. It's just that if you attack him with the intention to kill, he does the same. He knocked down people easily without killing them before so he should be able to get to farnese pretty quietly. Of course using the Dragon Slayer without killing is pretty impossible. perhaps he should twist the slayer 90° and knock them down with the wind he creates like he did with the 5 blade swords of the kushan leader (forgot the name).

[Arresty]

I remember one particular incident when Griffith MADE someone follow him. Guts would never do that, so their leadership IS different. Yes most people followed Griffith voluntarily, but hey, he was always an ambitious bastard, if he wanted something, he got it.

Two things I want to point out wiht that. Only Guts was forced to follow Griffith, so you can't say that most people followed him voluntairly. Everyone but Guts followed him voluntarily. Now also you can't say Guts hasn't forced anyone to follow him. He was forcing Casca if you remember correctly. He had her tied up so she couldn't escape. So if that is not forcing I don't know what is. Atleast with Griffith after Guts lost he agreed to stay and didn't even try to wander off. Casca was tied up.

And as for ambition, I woudl actually say Guts has more. Mainly cause killing a God is harder than taking your own Kinddom, and also Guts doesn't waver or start to sway from his path at all. He has one goal and he will do whatever to achieve that goal. Now Griffiht on occasion woudl actually start to sway away form his dream, though he alwasy came back to it, at points he woudl start to think about other things.

And as far as the ants below his feet. Guts never truely believed that. It was smoething he used to convince himself he was ok. He put up a hard exterior to hide his emotions. Even Goto was talking about he was just using revenge instead of facing his emotions. Now if you notice Guts even then tried to avoid human contact. He stayed outside of town in teh woods at night, he was reluctant to travel with the priest. A man who truely felt the weak didn't matter woudl not have taken those precautions. Also when he says the quotes about the ants beneath your feet he was using that as a way of justifying to himself that the priest and the girl died because htey were weak, not because htey were traveling with him. He was using it as a way to take the blame off himself. All these tactics were used to make himself feel better about his life and the way he was living it. Now on to another example that proves he didn't believe that truely is when he fights the count. After fighting the count the girl talks about committing suicide he tries to convince her to do it, not talk her out of it, but whne she nearly falls of the ledge accidentally, he actually sticks out his sword to save her. Woudl a man with those beliefs really do that. After that she claims to want to kil him and with his hardass self he just simply says to go ahead, he is always ready. After he starts to walk away though he starts to cry from what I can tell. I think everything is finally catching up to him to some extent. And then the flashback begins. I believe Guts put on that exterior especially the part about hating the weak, as a way to hide from his own weaknesses. He saw his own weakness and was so scared of it that he tried to bury it so deep it woudl never come out.

[Brainpiercing]

Hmm, when Griffith reappeared before his eyes the first time after the eclipse as Griffith again, Guts didn't rush to kill him, because he was worried about Casca, so how's that for following your ambition?

And the second part of your statement explains in more detail what I said, so....

[NINJ4]

Guts doesn't waver or start to sway from his path at all. He has one goal and he will do whatever to achieve that goal. Now Griffiht on occasion woudl actually start to sway away form his dream, though he alwasy came back to it, at points he woudl start to think about other things.

To clarify on this one, Guts doesn't waver - but he will completely switch his goals (well - if you call that wavering, then nevermind). Unlike Griffith who started waivering as soon as he found that his goals conflicted with his conscience - but he continued in pursuit of his original goal anyway.

As for the weak people thing - we probably never got to see him scorning anyone during the Golden Age since his interactions with weak people were not the focus. To some degree I think he meant it, although he may pity the ants that he has to crush (kind of like Griffith). The reason for this is because of all the experiences he had in his early childhood - survival of the fittest type of experiences which really showed no room for weakness. As for personal weakness - perhaps physically when he was dealing with the apostles for the first time, and also for the regular fear that he has of demons.

[Balor645]

I've been in jail for the past month. I could have sworn I was still waiting for chapter 250 when I first went in(Feb 9th)... now we're all the way to 252? Is 252 on torrent anywhere, I know you guys are going to bash me for posting this, but I'm looking for 252 but I'm afriad of running into spoilers if I read through too much of this stuff.

[Update] Oops! Okay, I found it... sorry for the spam.

[Buzkashi]

mmmkaaay....

[Arresty]

To clarify on this one, Guts doesn't waver - but he will completely switch his goals (well - if you call that wavering, then nevermind). Unlike Griffith who started waivering as soon as he found that his goals conflicted with his conscience - but he continued in pursuit of his original goal anyway.

For starters Guts still has the same goal and has not thought once about changing it. His goal is to kill griffith. He still has that goal. He is protecting casca because he can't achieve the goal while she is in danger. He maybe doing something different for the tiem being, but all of it is in preparation for hte final battle, so I woudl say he has not changed his goal at all. Rigth now he is taking care of Casca so he then can go back and finish killing Griffith. Griffith on the other hand at times thought of comlpetely abandoning his dream, which is different. Guts still has the same goal. He is doing something else right now, but his goal is still there and unchanged.

As for the weak people thing - we probably never got to see him scorning anyone during the Golden Age since his interactions with weak people were not the focus. To some degree I think he meant it, although he may pity the ants that he has to crush (kind of like Griffith). The reason for this is because of all the experiences he had in his early childhood - survival of the fittest type of experiences which really showed no room for weakness. As for personal weakness - perhaps physically when he was dealing with the apostles for the first time, and also for the regular fear that he has of demons.

And the Guts during the black swordsman arc woudl not have had companions like the band of the hawk. His opion of the weak woudl not have had him save casca, or save rickert which I remember hapening once. Or anyone else he saved. He cared for all the people underneath him. Remember hte Zodd fight, he didn't want anyone to follow him in. Only him. He cared for those weaker then him. The black swordsman at the beginning woudl not have cared for anyone.

Also when I was refering to weakness I did not mean physical. Guts wasnt' weak physically. He didn't feel weak physically. I was talking about his emotional weaknesses. He was unable to mourne or anythign like that. He buried all his emotions deap inside him because he was to weak to handle them. That is also why he put on the hard exterior, and the screw the weak attitude. All that was to convince himself he was not one of the weak, but at that time he was weaker then the peopel that died because htey were too weak. Physcially he may be able to keep himself alive, but at that time, he was weakened by his emotion and containing it. I believe that also held back his fighting skill. Ones mentality is important for ones fighting skill. I think him facing his emotions and mental weaknesses he will and has become stronger just from that.

[Starnum]

For starters Guts still has the same goal and has not thought once about changing it. His goal is to kill griffith. He still has that goal. He is protecting casca because he can't achieve the goal while she is in danger. He maybe doing something different for the tiem being, but all of it is in preparation for hte final battle, so I woudl say he has not changed his goal at all. Rigth now he is taking care of Casca so he then can go back and finish killing Griffith. Griffith on the other hand at times thought of comlpetely abandoning his dream, which is different. Guts still has the same goal. He is doing something else right now, but his goal is still there and unchanged.

I’m afraid that’s a bit backwards. He clearly stated in the Retribution Arc, that his goal was to protect Casca. SK told him he had to choose between her and his vengeance. He chose her, of course. However, in a round about way, it’s still the same, because she’ll never be safe, as long as Griffith and the God Hand exist. So basically, take what you said and reverse it.

[Arresty]

Atleast I am stil right, but backwards. But thanks for poitning that out. I remembenr him saying that now. I guess he did change his goal at one time then, cause his only goal at first was Griffith I think, but then again I could be wrong. Though even when he was all out for revenge, if he had heard anything bad happened to casca I think he woudl have protected her. Well he did after hearing about her from teh son. So maybe he has always wanted to preotect her first, and revenge second.

[Starnum]

Yeah, at first that was his soul motivation. I'm sure he did want to protect Casca, but at first he was completely consumed by his thirst for vengeance. That's why he left her and set out on a path of rage. I'm glad he's gotten it out of his system, for the most part, and can once again begin to grow as a person. He was really messed up emotionally there for a while, like you were saying.

[Griffiss]

When you say that Griffith thought about completely abandoning his goals, what do you mean? I seem to recall that the only time he truly waivered at all was as he was seeing the enchanted flashback of his dream as a child.

Subsequently, he returned to the nexus and committed himself to the dream with everything he had left, including his own body and the people that he'd begun to love.

Gatts made him forget his dream momentarily, because he received a glimpse of something more wholesome, but I don't believe that he ever truly actively contemplated giving up. He just didn't understand the deepest implications until they were before him. Once they appeared, he had to readjust, and then jumped in helmet first.

As for Gatts and Griffith sharing a quality, think of Gatts and Caska's conversation about bonfires. Gatts left to find his own meaning, and even if he didn't really notice it, I think he found his own flame. Now smaller flames have begun to rally to him, but he will be more compassionate in his use of their sacrifices.

[NINJ4]

Well, if Guts goals truly did not change and were to soley focus on the extermination of Griffith - then killing Casca would be the first step. True, that if he wants Casca to be safe, he will probably eventually have to take down the GodHand and Griffith, but that is just auxilary - his primary "goal" right now is still to save Casca.

Of course I am not saying that you can only have one goal, I am just saying that the priority of the goals has shifted - and I still agree that Griffith may have waivered, but Guts does not.

If Guts were presented with another chance to wipe out Griffith, but it would lead to Casca getting blown away - he would save Casca and take out Griffith later.

[Arresty]

As for Gatts and Griffith sharing a quality, think of Gatts and Caska's conversation about bonfires. Gatts left to find his own meaning, and even if he didn't really notice it, I think he found his own flame. Now smaller flames have begun to rally to him, but he will be more compassionate in his use of their sacrifices.

Awsome point. Forgot about that, which is wierd since it was probably one of the best scenes in the anime. Possibly my favorite scene. Also one of the best parts of the manga.

Now Griffith waivered more than just at that point. Also when he was unable to move he thought of settling down and marrying Casca. Remember he had the dream and Casca says "I wonder if that man is still swinging around his sword." And there kid is named Guts and the dog is named Pippin i think. That is definatly thinking of abandonging his dream. He later tried to kill himself, before he found the bahelit lying on the ground in front of him. Also arguably you coudl say that he threw away his dream every time he risked death to save Guts. You can't achieve your dream if you are dead. Now those are all parts that I consider him waivering.

Yeah his primary goal is Casca. I was saying it backwards as Starnum pointed out. Protecting Casca will require the death of the God Hand, because with the end of htem, hopefully it can also end the brand. Which is a long leap forward in her protection.

[Libaax]

Yeah proecting Casca means killing Femto and that surely gives him all the fuel he need to fight if he thought about forgetting his revenge.