Japanese pronounciation - the silent U?

[Aetherfukz]

Oi!

I know basic japanese pronounciation. Like Kosuke is pronounced Koske, not KosUke, Matsuda is Matsda, Sosuke is Soske, Asuka is Aska, and so on. Basically after a consonant the U is mostly silent.

Now in like 2 weeks a the a high ranking officer of our japanese sister-company will be over here. He's called Suzuki, like the bikes. So my question is would that also be pronounced Suzki, or rather like written, SuzUki with the U sound clearly audible?

I thought this would be the right forum to ask such a question

[War Machine]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you actually do pronounce the U all the time. Although in many cases it's a very slight sound that it's almost unnoticed (to the point where not saying it at all is normal).

Maybe this will help: Say "desu" several times fast and you'll see how you slowly degrade the U sound to the point where you're only saying "des". When speaking, some sounds aren't very audible, so through continuous usage they start getting eliminated.

A,E, and O sounds generally persist, while I and U sounds don't, but they're never really eliminated. You'll still hear people pronouncing the U in desu if they're trying to be more formal.

Although keep in mind that Suzuki is a name, not a verb, so it isn't used often enough to grant a change in pronunciation. Say it how it's written.

[Aetherfukz]

Yeah I think you're right the U isn't really silent. But it's not as audible as in german and I think english. Say for example Sosuke in the german FMP dub is wrongly pronounced Sosuke, with a heavy emphasis on the U, so the U sounds like the middle of the english word root. While in the japanese audio track he is pronounced Sos(u)ke with the U only barely audible. Same goes for Matsuda from Death Note and Kosuke from Tokikake, altough in the last on the german audio track pronounces it as it should be (and is in the japanese audio track), Kos(u)ke.

It's kinda hard for me explaining the sound in english, with my mother tongue being german, and only knowing some basic japanese words and sentences. So to make it short I've written the "silent U" in the starting post.

Basically all the japanese I hear comes from anime, so I only can take that as a reference, and the almost-not-audible U has always stricken me, especially with most official dubs getting it wrong.
A typical german would pronounce "desu" as written, again with the U sounding akin to the middle of "root". But in japanese it sounds more akin to "death" with maybe at the end the voice is hightened (again, kinda hard for me to explain in english, but I think almost everyone here on the forums knows how japanese pronounce desu ).

Thanks for the help, I'l prolly go with pronouncing the name as written to be on the safe side, he sure is used to it pronounced that way from foreigners. But it being a name an not a verb doesn't mean it would be pronounced as written does it? Like all the Anime names I've cited that don't put emphasis on the U as germans usualy do (dunno if the english dubs also emphasize it the same way).

[War Machine]

It all depends on where the emphasized syllable or tonic syllable is. If you say "de-SU", then you clearly pronounce the U, but if you say "DE-su", then it's barely noticeable.

If you were to separate Suzuki into syllables, I think the emphasis would lie on the second one: su-ZU-ki. So you don't omit the U because it's part of the the tonic syllable.

In Spanish we actually have rules for writing the tonic syllable in a word (so there's really only one possible pronunciation). The tilde ´ shows where the emphasis is, so for example, if you say "esta" the tonic syllable lies in the first syllable (ES-ta). But if you say "está", the meaning and the pronunciation change; now the tonic syllable lies in the second syllable (es-TA).

I tried thinking of an example in English but nothing comes to mind. Although this is common occurrence in all languages.

[Aetherfukz]

If you were to separate Suzuki into syllables, I think the emphasis would lie on the second one: su-ZU-ki. So you don't omit the U because it's part of the the tonic syllable.

But wouldn't Matsuda split up into Ma-TSU-da? As pronounced in Death Note it's more like MAT-su-DA. Same with Sosuke, could be So-SU-ke, or SOS-uke? I never really knew how to split syllables, always did it by gut feeling, just as I never studied english grammar, I always kinda felt what sounded right and what not

And yeah, the tilde as a hint for pronounciation is great!

[halfnhalf]

"tsu" is its own hiragana.


Matsuda is pronouced Ma-tsu-da. I took 3 years of japanese, still know the alphabet, how to say and talk to someone, but i cant read it for shit, unless written in english lol.

use this as a refrence.

[War Machine]

Yeah, you can use the hiragana alphabet as a guide to breaking words into syllables.

Sosuke becomes so-su-ke. Then just listen to how they say it and you can figure out the tonic syllable, SO-su-ke.

As a general rule, you break into a syllable when you hit a vowel.

[LordMune]

Sosuke becomes so-su-ke. Then just listen to how they say it and you can figure out the tonic syllable, SO-su-ke.

There are no traditional tonic syllables in Japanese IIRC. It's pronounced Soosuke because it's written "so u su ke", the u signifying a long o-vowel.

That's the beauty of it, 99.9% of Japanese is pronounced exactly as it is written (there are differences but there is little hope for a foreigner detecting them).

EDIT: I'd like to pre-emptively apologize to Nomimono, uncempt and Mystic and all others fluent in Japanese for being completely wrong about everything stated above.

[uncempt]

Yeah, Japanese is phonetic but the problem is that every syllable is (almost) equally de-emphasised. Seen the English Naruto dub? They call him na-ROO-to, right? The Japanese is more like a rapid stream of equally weighted syllables. I think that's why the u sound can go missing at times. There's a technical term for mashing sounds together when you speak quickly, ellision or something.

So the advice for "Suzuki" would be to say it short and quick, trying not to stress anything. If that makes any sense at all...

(there are differences but there is little hope for a foreigner detecting them)

Little hope for me anyway. I can't for the life of me tell apart the Japanese words for bridge and chopsticks.

[Aetherfukz]

So the advice for "Suzuki" would be to say it short and quick, trying not to stress anything. If that makes any sense at all...

It does indeed make sense. The faster I speak the name, the less audible the second U becomes becomes, but it's still spoken. Sounds about right.

Thanks for the informative help all!

[Starnum]

Heh, most Americans have no clue on how to pronounce Japanese words or names. That's okay, because the Japanese tend to say our words wrong too, like when they add vowels that just aren't there.

For example, I dislike the way most Americans say Ryu, like in that SF video Femto posted. It's Re-u, not freakin Rai-u. Also, as has been said, while a lot of the u's in Japanese are whispered, they're not entirely silent, but they may as well be. Like you said, it's Aska, not ASUka. I also hate it when people put the emphasis in the wrong place. It doesn't go on the 2nd damn syllable. It's like Uncempt said, the whole word should just flow together.

It's Kagome, not ka-GO-me.

It's Naruto, not Na-RUE-to.

Also…

It's E-nu-yasha, not IN-u-yasha.

It's Mahn-ga, not Mayn-ga.

This is one of the main reasons I can't stand watching dubs. No one knows how to say the damn names correctly. It's just horrible directing where you'll have like one person saying the words semi-correctly, while everyone else is saying shit like Gun-DAMN and AM-aro. Sorry, I'm a word Nazi. I just hate it when people intentionally or lazily butcher the pronunciations of words. I'm far from perfect (hell I’m not even fluent in any languages except English), but when I'm corrected on how to say a word, then I make note of it and say it right. I find it annoying when people are like, "Well that's how I've always said it, so I'm just gonna sound like an idiot and keep saying it incorrectly." I've corrected people on their pronunciation before, and they act like I offended them. What the fuck is up with that? It's not like I bit their head off, which I have had people do to me, when I've said other language’s words wrong. It's like, I might correct someone off-handedly, but how conceited do you have to be to think your way of saying the word incorrectly is better than how it's actually said. Like when people say, "Well that's how it's said in America (like mayn-ga) so it's okay." No, it's not, really. I mean if you want to sound like a fucktard, that's your business I guess.

There's also the thing where we think we can just change the meaning of words. Like Otaku, it's not a very flattering word, and it doesn't only apply to anime and manga. It means you're obsessed with something, and not in a good way. I just think it's funny how American anime fans have taken to calling themselves otaku's. Yeah, I'm kind of an anime otaku, but I actually know what that means. I just think it sounds ignorant when people say it to mean "I like to watch anime". That's not really what it means. You can be an otaku over anything, not just anime. Calling yourself an otaku is kind of like insulting yourself. Though, for a nerd like me, it's not necessarily untrue. Heh, maybe I should've put this in the rant thread. Meh, whatever. *shrugs*

[LordMune]

Calling yourself an otaku is kind of like insulting yourself.

This. I dropped identifying myself as an "otaku" before I even started, and I try to educate fellow nerds.

There are however some people who will insist on wearing the term "otaku" like a badge of honor, even after reading stuff like Welcome to the NHK, and to a lesser extent Genshiken. At that point your only real option is running for the hills because people be all crazy.

[Tonbo]

So the advice for "Suzuki" would be to say it short and quick, trying not to stress anything. If that makes any sense at all...

It does indeed make sense. The faster I speak the name, the less audible the second U becomes becomes, but it's still spoken. Sounds about right.

Thanks for the informative help all!

Hehe,
Just make sure you give equal time to each syllable. It's "zu" not "tsu"; the "u" is definitely meant to be audible.
But yeah, good advice, speak it fast and with confidence instead of belaboring over it and giving those germanic diphthongs a chance to slip in.

[Aetherfukz]

For example, I dislike the way most Americans say Ryu, like in that SF video Femto posted.

At least that's not a problem in german because we pronounce the letters the same as the japanese do usually, which is not the case for english. Like the E and I sounds are switched in english and german.

This is one of the main reasons I can't stand watching dubs. No one knows how to say the damn names correctly.

I know what you mean. That is why I so thoroughly enjoyed the (german) dub of Azumanga Daioh. They pronounced all the names right, and even left the -senpai, -chan, -kun and so on, suffixes intact. They also tried to explain japanese word puns, which is really rare. Usually they just use some completely unfunny pun in the dubbed language. But in Azumanga they would go like "You know how December is [don't remember the word] in japanese, and Teacher is [again do not remember], and they almost exactly sound the same?". I really liked that.

There's also the thing where we think we can just change the meaning of words. Like Otaku, it's not a very flattering word, and it doesn't only apply to anime and manga. It means you're obsessed with something, and not in a good way. I just think it's funny how American anime fans have taken to calling themselves otaku's. Yeah, I'm kind of an anime otaku, but I actually know what that means. I just think it sounds ignorant when people say it to mean "I like to watch anime". That's not really what it means. You can be an otaku over anything, not just anime. Calling yourself an otaku is kind of like insulting yourself. Though, for a nerd like me, it's not necessarily untrue. Heh, maybe I should've put this in the rant thread. Meh, whatever. *shrugs*

This. I dropped identifying myself as an "otaku" before I even started, and I try to educate fellow nerds.

Yeah Otaku is kinda derogatory. But so is calling someone a nerd (at least from my understanding). I'm a geek through and through, and I like being a geek, but I'm not a nerd.

Nerd is a term often bearing a derogatory connotation or stereotype, that refers to a person who passionately pursues intellectual activities, esoteric knowledge, or other obscure interests that are age inappropriate rather than engaging in more social or popular activities. Therefore, a nerd is often excluded from physical activity and considered a loner by peers.
[...]
Many traits associated with the nerd stereotype—an unusual penchant for accumulating highly specialized or technical knowledge, impaired social ability, and/or occasionally poor motor coordination—are characteristics of Asperger syndrome, an autism spectrum disorder. The existence of the nerd concept in the popular consciousness may be attributed to covariance between certain behavioral and cognitive predispositions, which at the extreme results in forms of autism.

The word geek is a slang term, noting individuals as "a peculiar or otherwise odd person, especially one who is perceived to be overly intellectual".
[...]
Other definitions include:

* A person who is interested in technology, especially computing and new media. Most geeks are adept with computers, and treat the term hacker as a term of respect, but not all are hackers themselves.
* A person who relates academic subjects to the real world outside of academic studies; for example, using multivariate calculus to determine how they should correctly optimize the dimensions of a pan to bake a cake.
* A person who has chosen concentration rather than conformity; one who pursues skill (especially technical skill) and imagination, not mainstream social acceptance.
* A person with a devotion to something in a way that places him or her outside the mainstream. This could be due to the intensity, depth, or subject of their interest. This definition is very broad but because many of these interests have mainstream endorsement and acceptance, the inclusion of some genres as "geeky" is heavily debated. Persons have been labelled as or chosen to identify as mathematics geeks, engineering geeks, sci-fi geeks, computer geeks, various science geeks, movie and film geeks (cinephile), comic book geeks, theatre geeks, history geeks, gamer geeks, music geeks, art geeks, philosophy geeks, literature geeks, and roleplay geeks.

[Fuji Nagase]

this thread is lasting way longer than i thought it would have....

[Aetherfukz]

this thread is lasting way longer than i thought it would have....

Nani?

[Starnum]

Okay, the nerdiest thing of all, is having actual definition differences between the words nerd and geek. They mean the same damn thing, somebody just decided to makeup a difference...prolly some geek.

[Tonbo]

Okay, the nerdiest thing of all, is having actual definition differences between the words nerd and geek. They mean the same damn thing, somebody just decided to makeup a difference...prolly some geek.

Haha, very true. A true test of nerdness: reading the wikipedia definitions of nerd, geek, and dork. I always thought a geek was just a nerd without the intelligence, but according to wiki being a geek is much cooler!

"The word geek is a slang term, noting individuals as "a peculiar or otherwise odd person, especially one who is perceived to be overly intellectual".[1] Formerly, the term referred to a carnival performer often billed as a wild man whose act usually includes biting the head off a live chicken, bat, snake or bugs."

I'm a wild man!!!

[Fuji Nagase]

this thread is lasting way longer than i thought it would have....

Nani?

in all the romanji, use of "u" glory: urusai.

[LordMune]

this thread is lasting way longer than i thought it would have....

Nani?

in all the romanji, use of "u" glory: urusai.

rômaji