Murdered for being an Atheist

[ZoddsNo1Fan]

The reaon i pair atheists with Communism is because you have to be an atheist in order to be a communist. Thusly, it is the founding atheists who have created communism and therfore they are directly related. karl marx the founder of Communism...an atheist scientist studying religion.

Karl Marx & Religion
Were you searching for more information about Karl Marx, Marxism, or Marxist critiques of religion? One person who attempted to examine religion from an objective, scientific perspective was Karl Marx. Marx's analysis and critique of religion is perhaps one of the most famous and most quoted by theist and atheist alike. Unfortunately, most of those doing the quoting don't really understand exactly what Marx meant.
According to Marx, religion is an expression of material realities and economic injustice. Thus, problems in religion are ultimately problems in society. Religion is not the disease, but merely a symptom. It is used by oppressors to make people feel better about the distress they experience due to being poor and exploited. This is the origin of his comment that religion is the “opium of the masses” - but as shall see, his thoughts are much more complex than commonly portrayed.

This guy sure had it all figured out huh?

Karl Marx was born on May 5, 1818 in the German city of Trier. His family was Jewish, but later converted to Protestantism in 1824 in order to avoid anti-semitic laws and persecution. For this reason among others, Marx rejected religion early on in his youth and made it absolutely clear that he was an atheist.

http://atheism.about.com/b/a/012034.htm
* note how they post the start of Commmunism within the atheist thread*

[Ayanami]

You don't have to be an atheist to be a communist. Communism is a social/economical ideal. Marx just believed that religion was a tool to further oppress the proletariats. He never says you have to be atheist to be communist.

If religion, as it seems to be to you, is the only thing keeping you from throwing all morals and ethical concepts out the window, then for fuck's sake don't stop believing.

I liked this little tid bit from the one and only LordMune. Does there have to be an after life or an absolute power telling us this is right or wrong for it to be right or wrong? If God does exist, does he have absolute power and is able to create what is right and wrong. Or does he just know what is right and wrong because he is God and all, and just tells us what the hell is right and wrong.

My beef with the fanatical christians these days is that I don't think they address the morality of actions and just do it because God says so.

[ZoddsNo1Fan]

Did you not read the previous posts? In many Communist countries yes you do have to be an atheist and if your not(if you are found to have a religion)then you will be tortured to renounce your faith before you are killed. China for example. That is why the leader of the communist party in China is hated. I recall a public live speaking with president Bush and the dictator of China and people who fled to the US were at the meeting screaming atrocities that he had commited. This may seem fanatical to you people but when your entire church is killed you might not like the person who is ordering these things to happen...

"There are, besides, eternal truths, such as Freedom, Justice, etc., that are common to all states of society. But communism abolishes eternal truths, it abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them on a new basis; it therefore acts in contradiction to all past historical experience."

[Ayanami]

Your posts are jokes to be frank.

Look man, their is no such thing as a true communism being practiced in the world today. I was talking about why saying atheist = communist is retarded. Not what happens if you are unlucky enough to be born in a supposedly communist country today.

Isn't religion all about absolute truths?

[square-enix]

Are you guys all sure about these numbers? Let’s not get carried away in the heat of the argument!

I do not have the numbers for those persecuted in Medieval Europe but naturally it would be high, considering that pagans (including ‘witches’) were burned or stoned to death under the guise of the church. This was over the course of what we label as the Middle Ages (5th-16th century) For off-shore persecutions, South America is ranging in an estimated 20 million and Africa is well, desiccated. Slavery was justified under Christianity so that’s around 13 million.

As far as I know the Northern Ireland conflict is rather ethnical and territorial based.

Political conflict with religious fanatics at the forefront yet again.

is it?

Of course. It’s like being bullied. If you’re afraid, you give in. With religion, people fear eternal damnation so they do ‘good’ things so that they might escape the wrath of their loving god.
It’s not the other way where Zodd claims that we fear accepting because of the repercussions.

Care to back that up?

India, Israel, Iraq, Nigeria, Northern Ireland, Saudi Arabia, Africa, Sudan, Lebanon, Côte d'Ivoire, Cyprus, Afghanistan, Ukraine, Rwanda, Bosnia, Somalia, Sri Lanka, 9/11, Fred Phelps, KKK, Neo-Nazis, Bush, Warren Jeffs.

The mass murder of 1 million Tibetans by Atheists(communists)……… "America is scared shitless of China."

I’m not sure what this quote serves. It’s simply stating that China has dominance over Tibet.

As for Brainpiercing, no this isnt true. Christians and the like have been killed by communism(atheist) the most.

Communism only recently ‘popped up’ in the mid 19th century so that’s only 150 years of killing by Atheist, because we know how those two are so closely linked. Now, Christians have been murdering other religious groups for 2,000 years. We know that these religious groups fought back so with some common sense, I think even you Zodd, can figure out who has killed more Christians.

Stop acting like the religious are in the wrong when in fact your fellow Atheists are the worlds problem.

Well, Stalin has long been dead and the death count caused by the Soviet Union has stayed the same. Religious unrest and massacres are daily problems to this day.

This goes with evolution as well. If evolution is true then what is morality? we are all animals if evolution is true. right? So why not sin openly without reproach...there will never be a concequence for your actions....right? Why not produce as many children as you can? why are you not able to have 10 wives? What is a lie? What is murder...survival of the fittest right?

Make a point?

Thusly, it is the founding atheists who have created communism

The what? The ‘first’ Europeans that were Atheist came from the Enlightenment and Karl Marx was not part of that time period. Yes, Marx was an atheist but that does not make all Atheist communist.

karl marx the founder of Communism...an atheist scientist studying religion.

He was looking at class struggle

* note how they post the start of Commmunism within the atheist thread*

Notice how your link makes no mention of Communism?

[Brainpiercing]

This goes with evolution as well. If evolution is true then what is morality? we are all animals if evolution is true. right? So why not sin openly without reproach...there will never be a concequence for your actions....right? Why not produce as many children as you can? why are you not able to have 10 wives? What is a lie? What is murder...survival of the fittest right?

Is that what you are afraid of? Well, how about society making the norms? They are still very much influenced by christianity, but society is constantly making its own norms.
What is sin? Is it crime? Is it having bad thoughts? But the consequence of any actions that defy society should be obvious: Punishment by society, it's quite simple.

Oh, and the children argument, it's just lovely. Who is it that forbids people from using condoms?

Why is it that without any religion whatsoever I can have a firmer moral base of values than YOU, even with a religion? You're so twisted and afraid of yourself I hope you never have children, or you'll produce a bunch of sad crazy fucks. The way you are arguing it seems like your back is to the wall, rational thought is trying to break through but you MUST KEEP IT DOWN!!! I encourage you to blow your brains out, you have no use for them, anyway.

[Ayanami]

Thinking of a moral code with out religion and just for morality's sake? How dare you, that would require way to much thought.

[MrFelony]

okay I'm going to assume (ass u me w/e) that by beliefs you mean atheism. by simple logic if you are atheistic, he is lumping you in with atheist communist states that have committed atrocities. that would be the same as lumping me and other christians in with christian states that have committed atrocities.

Catholicism and Protestantism
The Soviet government's policies toward the Catholic Church were strongly influenced by Soviet Catholics' recognition of an outside authority as head of their church. The Soviet government destroyed the Catholic Church before 1939. As the result of the Second World War millions of Catholics (including Greco-Catholics) obtained Soviet citizenship and new repressions were applied. Also, in the three republics where most of the Catholics lived, the Lithuanian SSR, Byelorussian SSR and Ukrainian SSR , Catholicism and nationalism were closely linked. Although the Roman Catholic Church in the Lithuanian Republic was tolerated, large numbers of the clergy were imprisoned, many seminaries were closed, and police agents infiltrated the remainder. The anti-Catholic campaign in the Lithuanian Republic abated after Stalin's death, but harsh measures against the church were resumed in 1957 and continued through the Brezhnev era.

Soviet religious policy was particularly harsh toward the Ukrainian Greco-Catholic Church. Ukrainian Greko-Catholics fell under Soviet rule in 1939 when western Ukraine was incorporated into the Soviet Union as part of the Nazi-Soviet Nonaggression Pact. Although the Ukrainian Greko-Catholic Church was permitted to function, it was almost immediately subjected to intense harassment. Retreating before the German army in 1941, Soviet authorities arrested large numbers of Ukrainian Greko-Catholic priests, who were either killed or deported to Siberia. After the Red Army reoccupied western Ukraine in 1944, the Soviet regime liquidated the Ukrainian Greko-Catholic Church by arresting its metropolitan, all of its bishops, hundreds of clergy, and the more active faithful, killing some and sending the rest to labor camps. At the same time, Soviet authorities forced some of the remaining clergy to abrogate the union with Rome and subordinate themselves to the Russian Orthodox Church. Prior to World War II, the number of Protestants in the Soviet Union was low in comparison with other believers, but they have shown remarkable growth since then. In 1944 the Soviet government established the All-Union Council of Evangelical Christian Baptists to give the government some control over the various Protestant sects. Many congregations refused to join this body, however, and others that initially joined the council subsequently left. All found that the state, through the council, was interfering in church life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_i ... n_practice


EDIT haha i got this mixed up with the "does religion do more harm than good" thread for a second

[Ayanami]

Human beings can be idiots, we seem to find ways to kill each other. Whether or not religion is around seems to be a moot point.

[Shaka Zulu]

Despite all the really beyond retarded things that has been said in this thread(Communism= Atheism...and also that without religion to teach us...we would be having orgies all the time and killing eacther nonstop like animals...), I cant believe he actually dared to go where he did in his first first post......He ACTUALLY acted like and right out said Christian have been the most persucated of all religions, and has been killed the most? SERIOUSLY?

Hmmm...in matter of few years alone.....the Inka population was dropped from 25 mill to 2-3 mill(Hmmm and this is not even the bloody Crusades...what they did to the population in city states like Acre was unheard of...nothing can ever be compared to that...plus what they did to the Jews in Europe around that time too)...Just in few years alone(Pizzaro and the other inquisitors whom favourite past time were genocide, where ordained and specifically approved by the Pope). And this was due to brutal campaigns specifically conducted to whipe them out......they werent whiped out mostly by sickness like the Aztecs etc.

[Skullkracker]

Oh. So you mean...since the atheists aren't peaceful neutrals, they had it coming? Wow, so I guess you're following the old testament, about an eye for an eye.

I never said that.

Of course I done nothing to offend them, but quite the latter, actually. In fact, I try to re-establish contact with them, but it seems I must be Christian in order to talk to them, or else I might 'taint' them with my unholy values. I'm not sure who filled their heads with this kind of bullshit.

Ok then. I know a few contacts being ruined by "if you bring up Jesus again I'll puch your face".
Then again, I am still puzzled by how some christians work.

Most Christians I know are completely arrogant and have disdain for atheists and everyone else. They also carry no respect for other people's religion. They created this rift between Christians and others; you're either with us or you're not. I'm sure with your band of people, you're willing to overlook their flaws, but maybe they treat other people like shit and little people.

I'm very sorry to hear that. Since the christians I know are completely different, it should be a good idea to introduce them...but I don't know how.

You can get killed for being a christian in parts of Africa.
And I've heard about soccer being played with a priest's head in South America.

'Care to back it up?' Oh, I haven't said that yet, so it's OK.

And YOU'VE heard about soccer being played with a priest's head? Because that sounds awfully like it's taken from a movie I watched before, yet the name escapes me. So...any news articles supporting your claim? Was this priest murdered for being Christian, or was he killed for molesting children?

Zoddsno1fan has further cemented his retarded status with 'atheists are communists'. Complete lawl.

First of all, I know it from a girl from our church who went on a mission in the area.
The soccer part I heard from a pastor. Next time I meet him I will ask him for details.

As fr Zodd, I think he was trying to counter your general opinion a little by pointing out that communists were atheists and not nice.

This goes with evolution as well. Its true that if evolution is true then what is morality? we are all animals so why not go to orgies? Why not produce as many children as you can? why are you not able to have 10 wives? What is a lie? What is murder...survival of the fittest right?

This argument pops up all the time, and fankly, it scares me shitless.

If religion, as it seems to be to you, is the only thing keeping you from throwing all morals and ethical concepts out the window, then for fuck's sake don't stop believing.

Psycho.

I think he meant that these phenomenon cannot be explained on a darwinist basis.

It's forced athiesm, if you could even use that term.

Forced by whom? Of course it was urged by the communist leaders and regime. It was dominant ideology for communism. So who do you need to force? Those that believe in something else.

Human beings can be idiots, we seem to find ways to kill each other. Whether or not religion is around seems to be a moot point.

My thoughts exactly.

[Eldo]

It doesn't seem like Skullkracker wants to in any part respond properly or participate in a discussion, since one-liners are hard to reply to. In fact, those one-liners or single sentence doesn't seem to amount to anything. I guess the rest of the details are open to interpretation, like Zoddsno1fan's stupidity. I will respond to the below quote, however, since it has more than 35 words and therefore a proper response can be drafted.

First of all, I know it from a girl from our church who went on a mission in the area.
The soccer part I heard from a pastor. Next time I meet him I will ask him for details.

As fr Zodd, I think he was trying to counter your general opinion a little by pointing out that communists were atheists and not nice.

And the reason the girl is still alive right now is...because she renounced her Christian beliefs?

Oh, and ask your pastor about that, I'd love to hear more hearsay.

What Zoddsno1fan is retarded about is clamping all atheists with communists. That's like me grouping all Christians with pedophiles. I can assure you that I hold no communism values, the only values I hold are my own and while I believe in sharing my belongings with other people I trust, I'm not quite sure I can be lumped onto communism because of that. By your statement with atheists and communists, you've pretty much got a number of people in this forum that can immediately disagree and disprove that claim. I guess that means...the rich, greedy corporations running sweat shops and treating human life like crap are the Christians.

So as for Intelligent Design...who's idea was that? Did God write it in his bible, or was this a man-made concept made up entirely without facts, unlike evolution? Then again, the bible was written by man, so I guess it can be whatever, as long as it sells well. No wonder L Ron Hubbard made a lot of dough. I would like to applaud the Vatican who has the sense to oppose ID and not be influenced by whoever with ranking tells them to believe in. They have published papers as to why ID does not correspond with their Catholic beliefs. Don't you guys both read the same bible? I don't know how this works.

Zoddsno1fan seems like one of those mindless Americans that are a good little drone, that listens dilligently to what people tell them, and easily influenced. Atheists are dirty pinkos, Mexicans are ruining America and have no value in life, war is good only if America starts it, killing is A-OK if your priest says it is.

[Skullkracker]

well, we are bulldozing into more topics than I can handle, and I admit, I would have to do a whole lot of researching to properly discuss every one of them.

Although I haven't heard from her for a while, she is simply careful.

I recently read about ID that it was a movement started by...scientists. Interesting. Simple, non-believer scientists.

I've got to say that I'm a little puzzled by this newly formed communism discussion.
So saying that KKK are the same as christians, or war starting maniacs goes, but stating the well known fact that most communists were atheists is a no-no?
I know I'm mentally worn out recently but WTF?

[psi29a]

Now that Killfile has come back into the office he is going to lay down some smack about Soviet history and communism that should contradict many of Zodd's statements to that effect.

Let us get back to the topic at hand which is the FACT that a Christian shot and killed another human being with a shotgun.

Why did he do it? He believed the guy was the devil, because he was atheist. Then the family members not only verbally abused those there that wanted to support the now deceased atheist's rights but was also threatened by violence with claims that said family members wish all atheist to be dead.

So while the discussions have run the course over many topics it still remains that a Christian killed another person, and his family are extremely anti-atheists.

Does this apply to all Christians? I don't think so. However, it is an example of belief and conviction that he was doing God's work. We cannot erase, gloss over, or otherwise try to bury it.

[Killfile]

Ok - first off, I'm going to post this without reading any of the thread. Psi has related some of the substance of it to me and I could honestly care less as to who said what. I'm not trying to be a jerk - just busy.

This isn't my opinion; this is how it is.

Communism isn't the same thing as Bolshevism or Maoism.

Communism isn't even a system of governance. It's a Stage of History theorized by Marx in Das Kapital and the Communist Manifesto. It was co-opted by Lenin and his motley crew into another ideology called Bolshevism. There are a lot of difference between Marxism and Bolshevism, most of which don't matter as far as this discussion goes.

What does matter is this: Marx thought Communism would happen on its own, naturally, and inevitably as a result of patters and trends in human history. Very Harry Seldon if you think about it. Lenin thought he could simply make it happen through violent revolution and force of will-- not a great deal unlike the Mule*. Marx's views on history are called "Marxism" and Lenin's "Bolshevism." Both seek to bring about Communism.

This ties in with religion (and therefore Atheism) because Marx famously wrote "Religion is the opiate of the masses." Opiates, for those of you that didn't pay attention in either DARE or history class, are a class of drugs derived from the Opium Poppy and include Heroin and Morphine. Think about how motivated a smack addict is when they're high. That's what Marx was talking about. Religion, Marx argued, makes the people complacent and docile. As long as Europe remained religious, he said, the Communist Revolution wouldn't come because people would be more concerned with the Great Hereafter than with the welfare of their terrestrial societies.

Lenin took this idea and ran with it. Since he sought to bring about Communism artificially, religion wasn't his friend. The Soviet Government, thus, became what I call a Secular Theocracy. In short, the state religion of the Soviet Union was Atheism.

Not all Atheists are Communists. Not all Communists are Atheists.

So let's talk about Atheism and Communism as ideologies. Atheism is simply faith in the idea that there is no god. That's it. That's all it is. If you're not sure that there's a god, you're an Agnostic. If you're sure that there isn't a god you're an Atheist. Neither of these have the slighest relevancy to your opinions as to the optimum way to deal with resource scarcity and manage an economy -- which is what Communism is all about.

Communism is the belief that resources ought to be shared equally amongst all members of a community. As Marx put it, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." It's a nice idea with a number of practical problems which aren't the subject of this post. There's nothing within this ideology that says you can't believe in God. In fact, one might argue that the The Sermon on the Mount is an endorsement of Communism - "All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them." Even the Second Greatest Commandment ties in here "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

Just so we're clear, I'm not saying that this is just a matter of word choice either. Clearly, not all Atheists are Bolsheviks either, or Maoists for that matter. Religious, Economic, and Political ideologies are not necessarily interdependent. The assumption that one presumes the other is overly simplistic, jingoistic, and very possibly a more vogue form of religious intolerance.

In a sense, religious intolerance, far more so then Atheism, was the hallmark of the Soviet and Maoist governments.

* At this stage you're very confused if you've never read Asimov's Foundation series. That's because you're a failure as a human being. Everyone should read Asimov.

[LordMune]

This goes with evolution as well. Its true that if evolution is true then what is morality? we are all animals so why not go to orgies? Why not produce as many children as you can? why are you not able to have 10 wives? What is a lie? What is murder...survival of the fittest right?

This argument pops up all the time, and fankly, it scares me shitless.

If religion, as it seems to be to you, is the only thing keeping you from throwing all morals and ethical concepts out the window, then for fuck's sake don't stop believing.

Psycho.

I think he meant that these phenomenon cannot be explained on a darwinist basis.

I think Richard Dawkins did just that in a Q&A session at some university- I saw a Google Video of it a couple of days ago. He reasoned something like that the basic moral code we've seen at work all over the world (as opposed to say, monotheism and other bullshit (that's right I went there)) springs from the basic early-human hunting/gathering group being one of close family; if you knock that dude out and steal his stick that's excellent for poking at stuff, chances are he's your brother and your deed will come back to haunt you in life, not just the afterlife.

I probably completely botched the finer points of his message though.

[psi29a]

I think Richard Dawkins did just that in a Q&A session at some university- I saw a Google Video of it a couple of days ago. He reasoned something like that the basic moral code we've seen at work all over the world (as opposed to say, monotheism and other bullshit (that's right I went there)) springs from the basic early-human hunting/gathering group being one of close family; if you knock that dude out and steal his stick that's excellent for poking at stuff, chances are he's your brother and your deed will come back to haunt you in life, not just the afterlife.

I probably completely botched the finer points of his message though.

It is called kinship societies, and there was less trouble in terms of theft and murder because they where family members. So over long periods of time this type of behaviour becomes de facto and as we move on into non kinship based societies the theft and murder tends to increase but the overall stigma is that theft and murder is wrong and is still taught by parents at an early age.

As LordMune was saying, using the Darwinian approach to social behavior, also known as Sociology is well grounded in reality and not pie in the sky fringe thought.

[Skullkracker]

I think Richard Dawkins did just that in a Q&A session at some university- I saw a Google Video of it a couple of days ago. He reasoned something like that the basic moral code we've seen at work all over the world (as opposed to say, monotheism and other bullshit (that's right I went there)) springs from the basic early-human hunting/gathering group being one of close family; if you knock that dude out and steal his stick that's excellent for poking at stuff, chances are he's your brother and your deed will come back to haunt you in life, not just the afterlife.

Many animals got that far, but that doesn't make them human.

[Wandering_Mystic]

Last time I checked, humans are animals <_<

Edit: Let me elaborate on that. We are living beings just llike them. Although by some definitions, animal can only apply to non-humans, I think it is really mostly arrogance that leads us to assume general superiority over all other species. I'm not a big fan of arrogance, it is far too blinding. In many ways, i feel like we have far more to learn from animals and nature than they do from us. That is one of the main reasons I personally reject wholly embracing any of the religions completely and exclusively.

Anyways, back to the point. There are too many humans who aren't "human" enough for me, and too many who are too "human", depending on what you mean by that word. The morality game does not require a major religion to be played properly (i.e. to have "morals" enough to ensure secure and stable living with your neighbors and community). Though I am not Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Budhhist or even a Druid, I still operate by my own code, much of which was likely hugely influenced by my parents (who are not religious either).

Claiming that without religion there are no morals makes me remember back to the days I was in elementary school and kids were hotly proclaiming that I could not survive if I did not eat meat (I was raised ina vegetarian lifestyle). Well, I am still standing today, and a great deal healthier than many people who do eat meat. Likewise, I have what I consider as rock solid morals without ever having been raised or adopted by any one religion. Morals that I consider a constant evolution of experiences passed down from generation to generation.

And for the curious: Do I believe in a greater connection with something incomprehensible and ineffable? yes. Do I call it God? No, because I just said it's ineffable, and the word God has gained far too much of an anthropomorphic quality than I can stomach. More than anything, perhaps, I believe in listening and observing, not to fit my own perceptions but where possible to get down to the heart of the subject and discover Truth and Illusion in their myriad forms.

[LordMune]

I think Richard Dawkins did just that in a Q&A session at some university- I saw a Google Video of it a couple of days ago. He reasoned something like that the basic moral code we've seen at work all over the world (as opposed to say, monotheism and other bullshit (that's right I went there)) springs from the basic early-human hunting/gathering group being one of close family; if you knock that dude out and steal his stick that's excellent for poking at stuff, chances are he's your brother and your deed will come back to haunt you in life, not just the afterlife.

Many animals got that far, but that doesn't make them human.

I'm sorry, my head just imploded.

IS A COHERENT POINT TOO MUCH TO ASK FOR

[Albator]

Despite being told so, demonstrated so and being obviously out of his game, Skullkracker keeps his line of thought and his one-liners that are, oh so deep.

Change disc.

[Ayanami]

So let's talk about Atheism and Communism as ideologies. Atheism is simply faith in the idea that there is no god. That's it. That's all it is. If you're not sure that there's a god, you're an Agnostic. If you're sure that there isn't a god you're an Atheist. Neither of these have the slighest relevancy to your opinions as to the optimum way to deal with resource scarcity and manage an economy -- which is what Communism is all about.

This is what I was trying to say. Thanks Killfile!

Any who, what are we talking about now. Animals = Humans? Any one who has been through High School Biology should know that. Skullkracker swings and misses.

[MrFelony]

"OMGODZORS!1!!!1

He simply meant that they do not command the same level of cognitive abilities that we do as far as we can tell. the whole hierarchy of man is better than the beasts thing. you guys need to stop taking what people say so fucking literal. It's very easy to see what people mean most the time if you just stop and think.

now if he did actually mean people aren't animals then...well whatever

[psi29a]

"OMGODZORS!1!!!1

...

you guys need to stop taking what people say so fucking literal.

Some people here choose not to believe in god, so OMGODZORDS!1!!!1 would be an incorrect statement, perhaps you meant OMWANGZORDS!1!!!1. How literal was that?

Sorry, trying to attempt a bit of levity here. If you aren't being literal yet your audience is expecting it or rather demanding it then the point you where trying to make will get lost. This happens not because we are incredibly dense, it perhaps lends a lot to what values we are placing on words. Take for example my avoidance of the word belief and other assertion of belief in the non-religious manner. I have faith in my parents to do the right thing, though they may not always do the right thing.

*shrugs*

There are a number of issues presented in this thread and perhaps we can break them up into different threads. If I miss one, please chime up.

1) Any group is wrong/darkness/evil or right/light/good.

Well, whenever you claim an affiliation you will take the good and the bad with it. However, just because one is affiliated or even founded a group it doesn't mean you agree with everything the group is associated with. You will be challenged in your group's stances on any topic.

2) There is a distinct right and wrong.

This is relative, your value system will be different than everyone you encounter. It will scale from little different to incompatible proportions. If you have a girlfriend/boyfriend or a spouse, you will understand. Let us put it this way, most cultures claim that murder is bad, as in 'wrong'. However, I'm sure that anyone can make a case where taking a life is the right thing to do. Otherwise we would shun our military, and our family members who served. In th end, it depends on your upbringing, parents, community (religious or otherwise), and society that forms you outlook on life, sense of morality and ethics.

3) The absence of religion or the total conversation to a religion will solve the worlds problem.

Do we really know this, either way? It would be a grand social experiment, no doubt. We can point of the evidence of wrong doing from theists and atheists. The point is that as the question above, you are a product of your environment, at least when it comes how you view life and the society in which you live. You will have to adapt to survive, if means converting and having to cover your true beliefs/values in order to fit in then you get used to it.



My answers are secular, and attempts to cover a lot of common ground that we are in contention with. You may not agree, that is fair but this is also from someone who holds a minor in history from a top 10 Liberal Arts University in the US. We also have a very extensive theology class to which I was exposed to as a requirement so that I studied many religions. While it is true that our Philosophy and Theology professors refused to chat with each other, we at least can do so here.

That being said, if you wish to make logical argument then do so using logic. If you try to apply faith/belief as your axiom then your point is worthless. By that same point, if you try to argue belief then don't try to apply logic because we can't prove it either way.

This applies to ID/creationists as it does to those that deny the existence of God.

[Grahf]

3) The absence of religion or the total conversation to a religion will solve the worlds problem.

Do we really know this, either way? It would be a grand social experiment, no doubt. We can point of the evidence of wrong doing from theists and atheists. The point is that as the question above, you are a product of your environment, at least when it comes how you view life and the society in which you live. You will have to adapt to survive, if means converting and having to cover your true beliefs/values in order to fit in then you get used to it.

That would be an interesting experiment indeed. I think you really should be a topic on itself as well. The Debate between religious leaders to decide which religion reigns supreme would be great. ..........

On second thought that would be a war in itself.