JROTC removed because of gays?

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ryusenka
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JROTC removed because of gays?

Post by ryusenka »

The San Francisco Board of Education appears poised to kick the military's Junior ROTC programs out of the city's public schools, saying the Pentagon's refusal to allow openly gay service members is deplorable and not in line with the school district's anti-discrimination policy.

School board members are scheduled to introduce a resolution tonight outlawing the JROTC because of the military's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" rule. The resolution calls that policy an "unjust, indefensible, unintelligent, state-sanctioned act of homophobia."

The resolution, which won't get a final vote until June, would create a task force to develop a similar program without a tie to the military and would phase out JROTC by the 2007-08 school year.

JROTC currently has 1,625 students in seven San Francisco public high schools: Balboa, Burton, Galileo, Lincoln, Lowell, Mission and Washington. Students enroll on a voluntary basis and earn physical education credits for participating in the military-sponsored program. The students engage in physical training such as running, push-ups and jumping jacks; and discipline training such as marching, drill-practice and using a mock chain of command. They also study military history and perform community service.

"They really help you stay focused, stay on track and get your stuff together," said Timothy Twyman, 16, a sophomore at Mission High and a member of that school's JROTC program. "It teaches you about how the world's going to be."

Supporters such as Twyman say the program helps students develop self-confidence and prepare for the working world, while opponents counter that it's just an easy way for the military to get a foothold in public schools and encourage teens to enlist after they graduate.

Lt. Cmdr. Joe Carpenter, a Pentagon spokesman, said 402,000 students are enrolled in 3,361 JROTC units around the country, and another 700 schools are on a waiting list. Carpenter said he wasn't aware of any school district kicking JROTC off its campuses and didn't want to comment on San Francisco's vote until it has been taken.

"We don't comment on what ifs," he said. "We don't speculate."

The proposal to eliminate six Army and one Navy JROTC units is just one in a recent string of battles between San Francisco and the military. Last year, the city's Board of Supervisors voted against allowing the World War II battleship Iowa to berth in the city as a tourist attraction, in part because of the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy.

In February, Supervisor Gerardo Sandoval appeared on Fox's "Hannity and Colmes" show and said, "The United States should not have a military. All in all, we would be in much, much, much better shape."

Mark Sanchez, the JROTC resolution's sponsor and the only member of the school board who is gay, said the nation's gay capital should have stood up against the military for its "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy long ago.

"If the military said, 'You can't be openly Jewish or you can't be openly Catholic,' I don't think we would have stood for it this long," he said. "It's an ethical issue more than anything, and if we stand by our policies of nondiscrimination, we should be able to stand by this policy as well."

Sanchez borrowed the language from a resolution submitted by Commissioner Dan Kelly to the school board in 1996. That measure failed 4-3. Sanchez said that a decade later it's time to try again.

Board member Kelly has co-signed the current resolution. He served two years in prison for resisting the draft during the war in Vietnam.

The proposal appears headed for passage this time around. Commissioners Sarah Lipson, Eric Mar and Norman Yee told The Chronicle they're inclined to support it as long as a solid replacement program is developed.

"A discriminatory institution like the U.S. military really should not be running programs in our school district," Mar said.

Commissioners Eddie Chin and Jill Wynns said they are likely to vote against the resolution, noting that if board members have trouble with "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," they should be fighting for it to be abolished at the national level.

"If they're against the current administration and the policy, they should work at the national level and not take it out on the kids," Chin said.

Wynns, the head of the board's budget committee, said it's impractical to do away with JROTC. The district and the Department of Defense split the cost of the program's teachers. Without the monetary help, the district will have to hire a raft of P.E. teachers and pay their entire salaries itself, Wynns said. She said she didn't know yet how much money it would cost the district each year.

Yee, the board president, said the resolution will go to a committee and probably will be voted upon in the board's last meeting of the school year, in late June.
For those of you that don't know, JROTC stands for Junior Reserve Officer Trainging Camp. It's a great program which teaches kids responsibilities and leader ship skills, and I don't see why they have to remove it just because of this. I mean, it's San Francisco, what did you expect some of the citizens to be?

I actually don't think this is the main reason they're removing this, I attended a school board meeting to represent my school's JROTC where they talked about removing this program for money saving purpose, but a lot of the people that attended the meeting just want to remove it completly because of the military influence. They think that just because we attend a class that teaches military skill that in the future we're going to war and I quote some dumbass speaking
to rip off heads and body parts of the iraqis
There's nothing wrong with freedom of speech but dumbasses like this need to know when and when not to speak. I actually wouldn't mind if they would replace it with a program that teaches the same stuff but without military influence, but removing it would fill up classroooms even more then they need to.

Anyone has an opinion of this?
Last edited by ryusenka on Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ShinigamiGuts »

As you said it's San Fagcisco, they ban jrotc, football probably next. But require home-ec soon.
When my bro was in rotc he always had his haircut, shirt tucked in and the works. It did well for him. For everyone in it. They didn't dress like future mcdonald workers.
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Post by Bengal »

As a homosexual male who served in the Army, I can understand their point.

They're not against JROTC because they don't want kids to join the military. They're against JROTC because openly gay students are not welcome, and openly gay men can't enlist in the military.

They intend to replace the program with one identical, but without the ties specific to the discriminatory body of the Department of Defense. Students could join and learn and be accepted "no matter how hot they flame."

It certainly can't be about the COST of JROTC, since replacing the program as they intend will cost more and not less.

The thought that banning football is next is just retarded. Everyone knows that drag queens are partial to men in uniform, even football uniforms.

So no, I won't agree with you when you suggest that these people are dumbasses that take freedom of speech too far, because they're trying to protect my rights, and the rights of children who grow up in the same fashion that I grew up.
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Post by Sortep »

As someone who served in the military. I can understand both sides of the Don't Ask Don't Tell Rule. Alot of people in the homosexual community feel it is a discriminatory rule in the same dimension that having segregated units was earlier in the 20th century was. I will speak mainly from the combat arms perspective simply because I don't really know what the soft mos people do.

One thing everyone must know right away is that armies are designed to kill and destroy as many of the enemy as possible while suffering as little possible in the way of casualties. Period. Everything in the military exists simply for this purpose. Whether you be a killer or a supporter of ye killer.

Society as a whole still has a vast homophobia inherent in it. Thanks to republicans and christianity. That being said, a unit's cohesion is the most effective tool for combat and survival. If there was an openly gay member of an infantry firing team, it's highly likely that many of that man's fellow soldiers wouldn't know how to react in a positive and constructive manner. This would damage the most important aspect of combat which is teamwork.

This is not something wrong with the army so much as it is our society. As 90% of us know, homosexuality is not some sort of contagious ailment. Instead, it is a sexual preference. The vast majority of homosexuals are respectful of others' preferences. However, the average overtesteroned infantry man will feel a great deal of unease in the presence of a homosexual male.

Currently I do not believe open homosexuality should be a bar against enlistment in the military specifically in the support mos and non combat arms mos simply because it doesn't factor against the success of the mission. A gay quartermaster would most likely be a superior quatermaster to that of the straight one. However in combat, one must have ABSOLUTE trust in that of his buddies and those around him.

As a former soldier who served in Iraq, I know personally that many of us would not have survived without that absolute trust in the man next to us. Adding an openly homosexual soldier into that would damamge greatly the teamwork element as most combat arms people come from demographs most typical of strong homophobia.

The problem isn't neccesarily with the army, but more with our society. Once the prejudice against homosexuality dilutes to the marginalization akin to other prejudices out there (such as racism), it will be possible for the army to remove that bar into service.

The army doesn't prohibit homosexuality, just the advertisement of being homosexual. The army code of conduct is very very strict. The army's defination of "sodomization" basically amounts to anything that isn't missionary vaginal penetration. So technically, a soldier could be court martialed for sodomy for say his wife performing fellatio on him.

Right now, those in the homosexual community need to focus on the steps neccesary for a successful and healthy understand from all sides of society before trying to bring it to the army. Racism in the army is just now being a non factor even so long after the civil rights movement. That community must understand that before you enforce civilized rules onto an entity that's purpose is uncivilized chaos, death, and destruction, that one must change that environments in which those children who grow up to be soldiers are raised in.

It's not a fast process and will probably take time. I restate that I do believe that openly gaysoldiers should be allowed into every mos except combat arms mos's.
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Post by MrFelony »

If anything the army should force the men to form homosexual relationships. Back in the day when homosexuality was cool, the Greek's had a group of 300 men who were so good that they even rivaled the great Spartans in combat. their secret? the group of 300 were 150 pairs of homosexual men who fought together and would never leave the field for fear of shame in the eyes of their partner. so lets get some more brokeback battalions in our military :P
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Post by Bengal »

Sortep wrote:The army doesn't prohibit homosexuality, just the advertisement of being homosexual. The army code of conduct is very very strict. The army's defination of "sodomization" basically amounts to anything that isn't missionary vaginal penetration. So technically, a soldier could be court martialed for sodomy for say his wife performing fellatio on him.
The army doesn't technically prohibit homosexuality, but if you are discovered to be part of a homosexual relationship at all, even if you don't advertise and even if you do your best to hide it, they can and usually WILL court martial you and then honorably or dishonorably discharge you.

I've seen it happen. It scared me shitless to think that they might take my rank away, strip me of my benifits, and drum me out. Luckily, they discovered my bad hip before anyone found out about my boyfriend.

The army's definition of Sodomy as anything other than missionary sex wherin a penis is inserted into a vagina is completely stupid. They simply should not have the right to go into a soldier's private life like that.

I understand your point about unit cohesion in infantry units. Women aren't allowed in infantry units either. However, they're allowed to serve in "soft MOS" jobs, and they certainly don't have to pretend they aren't women. They're not required to lie boldfacedly or through omission in order to keep their jobs. They certainly aren't required to remain celibate in order to avoid courtmartial.
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Post by Sortep »

Thats the whole point i made. Homosexuals and women should be equal in this. If a man or woman wants to be openly gay, no combat arms. That's all. I mean to any fighting mos all the soft ones are "gay" anyway, it's not like it would change the inter-mos shit talk that goes on.

As far if found to be homosexual and discharge yada yada yada. According to an explanation given a long time ago in basic training, "if it's find out you're a homosexual it's too out in the open."

Wrong or right, thems the breaks. The army is a place where your whole purpose in life is to jump through hoops when they (the powers that be) ring the bell. In an environment like that, there is no place for ideals and rules common to normal society. Hence the UCMJ.

If you still have copies of your enlistment paperwork. Read them all the way through.
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Post by Bengal »

Oh I did. The fact that you have no legal leg to stand on when you want to try and defend your own rights, the rights you signed up to protect, is particularly infuriating.

The reason I think it's a good idea to do away with JROTC in San Francisco and let the city replace it with a program less biased is that it sends a message that the system as it stands now is not acceptable and will no longer be tolerated.

The UCMJ needs changing. Enlistment is down, satisfaction is down, and the mortality rate is way up. Either we're going to turn the army into an appealing life choice for a larger number of people again, or we're going to need to institute the draft again, and I can garuntee that the draft won't work for long.
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Post by Sortep »

Wouldyou rather change ucmj and lessen the effectiveness of our army even further? It's bad enough now. Imagine if we start getting slaughtered because the weak were not weeded out. I think the army should go back to the way it was when you could barely distinguish between it and the marines. It was a very effective sword then. I remember in Iraq how soft and weak the non combat mos people were. In any military EVERYONE is a rifleman first. This needs to be driven home ferociously.
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Post by psi29a »

Every Marine a rifleman! Send in the Marines to take a position, have the Army babysit it. *grin*

Pardon, everyone (cept me) in my family is either former or retired USMC. I had a fun childhood of "Young Marines" when we exercised side by side FBI cadets at Quantico VA.

"Young Marines" was really cool in that they didn't care what your race, creed, beliefs, or orientation was... so long as you didn't vocalize, you where a brother in arms. You are US Marine, not <insert your name>.

Once they take away your identity, makeing it known what you are is completely irrelevent. If you feel that you have to make "it" known, then you are not a Marine, you are a civilian.

http://www.youngmarines.com/
The Young Marines is a not-for-profit 501(c)3 youth education program for boys and girls ages 8 through high school. The program focuses on character building through a combination of self-discipline, teamwork and leadership, and promotes a healthy, drug-free lifestyle.

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Post by Sortep »

Marines = Many Assholes Riding In Navy Equipment... but seriously... other than the combat jobs in the army... id rather hang out with pog marines than medics, and paperpushers from the army

just because the marines still know EVERYONE is a rifleman first!
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Post by psi29a »

Sortep wrote:Marines = Many Assholes Riding In Navy Equipment... but seriously... other than the combat jobs in the army... id rather hang out with pog marines than medics, and paperpushers from the army

just because the marines still know EVERYONE is a rifleman first!
Not too shabby for the US's most underfunded military branch. Also stands to reason that the President's Own are assholes for a reason. :D They are the reason the navy doesn't have their ships invaded, and they are known to throw a squid over for good luck too.

However, I seriously warn against playing Dungeons & Dragons with a group of marines. Especially when you are 13. :P When you get a drink at the tavern, they make you finish it. That D20's THAC0 rolls start to become gambling games on who "gets it" first. You gain a level for dieing. Seriously fucked up. ^_^

My older bro worked on F18 SH radar, so he hung with all the nerds in the Corps. , problem is that all those nerds had KA-BARs and M-16s . :D
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Post by Sortep »

I couldn't stand the people from the soft mos's... they pissed me off to no extent... i hate hate hated nco's who would try to fuck with me about my boots... it seemed like it was always some fucknutts doing in processing with the greenies... whereas i'd be at the gym and i'd kick it with the jars... and their women were excellent :twisted: army women were just dirty...almost as dirty as navy women
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Post by Bengal »

The "Soft" MOS's keep your dumb ass alive.

Try running an army without 98C, 98G, and 98J, and you'll find yourself spending twice as many marines and taking half as much ground.

Those medics are the most valuable personnel ON the battlefield.

And just try to get your rifleman to do payroll for an entire battallion.

What you fail to understand is that in the Army, you're not a rifleman first. Your job IS your job. Your primary function is what you've been trained to do. It's a waste of money and a waste of time to hand an M16 to a combat engineer and tell him to go shoot some brown people.

If the risk your service forces you to place yourself in requires you to slap your chest and constantly remind yourself how macho you are, maybe you would be better suited for a position that encourages a healthier state of mind.

Or maybe you should just shut your noise hole.

It's better to stay silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt, after all.
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Post by psi29a »

You have a fair point, Marines have their own paper pushers. However, the air wing of the marines (for example) working on osprays and f18s, while their job is their job, they are still riflemen first and formost.
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Post by Bengal »

There is no sensible reason for a military intelligence operative to be in a trench with a rifle.

Knowing how to take care of themselves in a war is one thing, but they are responsible for gathering the information that keeps the troops alive first and foremost. Not riflemen.
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Post by psi29a »

Bengal wrote:There is no sensible reason for a military intelligence operative to be in a trench with a rifle.

Knowing how to take care of themselves in a war is one thing, but they are responsible for gathering the information that keeps the troops alive first and foremost. Not riflemen.
Because that is how the Marines operate, EVERY marine is a rifleman. That is the way it is, every marine your brother who is able to do their job and protect your back. That makes more than enough sense. PT every day, plus your job. It isn't that hard. If my family spanning several generations back can do it, I bet you every one else can to.

In a volunteer military, you train to fight. Even that lowly Private doing IT work at Quantico is required to do PT and goto the firing range. It is just common sense.

I think it is a matter of priorities for the branch particular branch of the military. However, I would rather have a pencil pusher who knows how to take a head shot in a 100 yards over a squishy chair ridden one. Gives the intelligence officer more knowledge of what is going on out there than vague concepts.
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Post by Bengal »

Like I said, nothing wrong with having them know how to take care of themselves.

The problem that I have with the marines is that if you piss off someone who outranks you, you can find yourself in the field with the infantry, even though the government spent hundreds of thousands of dollars training you to decode enemy messages and use circumstantial evidence to formulate logistical data.

That's a crime waiting to happen.
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Post by psi29a »

Bengal wrote:Like I said, nothing wrong with having them know how to take care of themselves.

The problem that I have with the marines is that if you piss off someone who outranks you, you can find yourself in the field with the infantry, even though the government spent hundreds of thousands of dollars training you to decode enemy messages and use circumstantial evidence to formulate logistical data.

That's a crime waiting to happen.
That government money comes from my taxes. If you are in the military (Volunteered), I expect you to know how to take care of yourself. I expect more of you than any civilian. If you are USMC, I don't care if you work in a lead shielded box in hawaii or just outside of bagdad; soldering breadboards or working cryptanalysis or a 4 star, I expect you to know how to kill. Your job should be to kill anything that comes close to you.

If you ever see a Marine, then sure as the wind blows they would have thought of any number of ways to kill you. That is their job. I don't expect that of Naval personal, or Army personal or Airmen. Frankly, as you said, their jobs don't require it.

I'm not dissing Army, or any other branch. However, the Marines are riflemen for a reason. They are also a branch of the Navy for a reason as well.

To liven up the thread:
http://www.somethingawful.com/index.php?a=4215

Oorah!
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Post by Sortep »

yes the army needs all of those functionaries... BUT... BUT to not have any combat sense or training at all? a fuckin 88M almost got me killed... the son of a bitch... when i made nco, the first thing i did was fuck with a couple of soft mos privates and specialists... i got bored after an hour.... the pogs don't get bored... that simply and incidently proves there isn't much going on in that area... medics are probably the only mos that shouldn't have to have a thorough combat training as far as offense goes... but they should know how to stay low, keep a cool head, and move without getting in the way or killed... as far as whatever mos you were... there is ALWAYS a possibility you will be engaged in the field... hence why everyone in the army SHOULD be as able as any infantry, recon, ranger, sapper, etc

[edit] i read and caught an insult directed at me... 1st and foremost i never said any mos was better than another... but what i said is that ALL mos's should be as well trained for combat as combat arms mos... so about that chest slapping... i dont recall doing that.. what i do recall doing was marching in 120 degree heat unable to stop to take a piss or a shit and just having to go on myself while escorting a convoy to some fucknutt place i didn't really care for... i was marching under buildings and balconies where people were dumping buckets of shit, piss, and whatever else on us as we passed... i was marching down roads where militants would open fire on us as children were crossing while we took unneccessary casualties just so if a child died it wouldn't be our rounds that did it... i was pulling peices of steel from myself that found it's way there from recently exploded humvee thanks to an rpg... i was holding my friend's face together telling him he was gonna be fine just prettier for 20 minutes until a medic could get there while in the meantime he dies... i was there receiving a dear john email from my ex fiance and not even frowning but crying as i had to make makeshift tourniquets for both of my friend's legs knowing he wouldn't be able to ever play basketball again which was what he loved doin most... i was the one going 3 months without so much as a shower with my uniform so stiff at the end of the day it would stand without me being in it.... i was there seeing people's body parts vaporize from the 50 cal i was firing because the soldier originally firing was below me in the vehicle choking on his own blood with bile spilling onto his uniform crying for his mother... so you can take your self righteous i'm a pog bullshit and know one thing.... IN THE MILITARY YOU ARE A RIFLEMAN AND WHATEVER YOUR MOS IS. Period.
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Post by ryusenka »

Here's an update with my school in it. If you want to see more the website's here. Talen is a friend of mine and he is also the president of GSA (Gay Straight Alliance).

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... M6I4R1.DTL
The San Francisco Board of Education is scheduled to vote... On the stairway, Stephen Schwenka, the commander of JROTC... Talen Lee, a junior who is commander of Echo Company of t... Cadets from the JROTC at Galileo High march in the Italia... More...

Talen Lee rushed into the Junior Reserve Officers' Training Corps basement classroom at San Francisco's Galileo High School minutes before the day's last class started.

"At ease!" he yelled from behind a lectern, his high-pitched voice descending half an octave. Another cadet repeated the order as Talen eyed the noisy students, waiting for their silence.

"Attention!" he said, and the students stood to say the Pledge of Allegiance.

Then Talen, the battalion officer, took attendance. It was a Tuesday -- uniform day. In his crisp green uniform, seven medals and 18 ribbons pinned to his left breast pocket, the high school junior called each name and waited for a "Here, Sir!"

Talen, whose life is filled with family and personal problems, has earned respect and prizes it. In JROTC, Talen says, he finds stability, acceptance and happiness.

Yet in eight days, the San Francisco Board of Education is expected to kill off the long-standing and enormously popular course, a politically motivated expulsion that Army officials believe is rare if not unprecedented among the nation's high schools in recent decades.

A majority of board members say the benefits of the 90-year-old program are not worth the association with the U.S. military, an institution they consider discriminatory, homophobic and at odds with the mission of public education.

Nearly 1,600 San Francisco cadets go through JROTC roll call each day. These students are 4-foot-10 to 6-foot-4. Athletic and disabled. College-bound and barely graduating. Gay and straight. White, black and brown. Some leave school for large homes with ocean views. Others board buses for Bayview-Hunters Point.

Dressed in $200 Army-issue uniforms, they look alike, conforming to a rigid structure borrowed from military traditions. For decades, JROTC cadets like Talen have walked through the halls of San Francisco's high schools.

The city's JROTC cadets don't want to lose the sense of purpose and place they say they find there now. They show up dutifully and stay late after school, attending leadership meetings or organizing food drives. Practicing marching, drums or drills. Becoming, they say, leaders, teachers and teammates.

Despite the program's name and the military funding it receives, JROTC does not urge students to be soldiers, nor does it follow federal "don't ask, don't tell" rules regarding homosexuality. The program requires no future commitment of cadets and the vast majority of the students say they have no intention of entering the armed forces.

Board members acknowledge that replacing the program wouldn't be easy.

The cadets say what they find within the walls of the program is a family. For Talen and many of the others, JROTC is their home.

The commander

Talen doesn't spend much time at his family's sixth-floor apartment in the Tenderloin. Some days, he doesn't spend much time at school. He was a stellar student but his grades now suffer from unexcused absences and missed homework assignments. Yet he nearly always attends his last class.

He is the Echo Company commander, the top cadet in sixth period, with a promotion to first or second lieutenant expected soon. He is also gay.

"I came out to my mom when I was 12," he said during after-school drills on his 16th birthday last month. He thought the last four years would have given his family time to adjust. Full acceptance never came. His relationships with his mother and stepfather are tense. He was trying to build a relationship with his birth dad when he recently dropped out of sight, his phone disconnected, his whereabouts unknown, Talen said.

"I joined ROTC to make my family proud," Talen said, as the JROTC drum corps sent snare and bass riffs echoing across the inner courtyard of his high school. But his parents have shown little interest, he said. His family declined to comment for this story.

This year, he worked his way up to a top leadership position in his battalion and won a spot on the unit's drill team -- normally consisting only of girls.

"If I cannot make my parents proud," he said, "I might as well make myself proud."

The sarge

In the back of the JROTC classroom, Steve Hardee stood in the doorway to an adjoining office and watched Talen take Echo Company attendance. The Galileo instructor, a retired Army sergeant first class, is a formidable-looking man at 6-foot-3, with a stare that stops students from doing whatever they weren't supposed to be doing.

The students call him "Sarge."

Scanning the students in Echo Company, Hardee caught a student's eye.

"You owe me," he said to the student in a quiet voice. The boy nodded.

Talen continued calling out names.

"You know why?" Hardee asked. The boy nodded again.

The conversation ended there. The boy, a second-year JROTC cadet, was chewing gum.

He would have to pay 20 jumping jacks for the offense. The sergeant didn't write the debt down. He didn't have to. The student would pay during "PT" -- physical training -- three days later.

There are a lot of regulations and routines for JROTC cadets to memorize. They must learn how to march: left face, right face, about face, keeping step regardless of the length of their legs.

Cadets must show respect to superior officers with proper greetings and replies to commands. Uniform care is also a skill: patches in the proper place and shiny black shoes. Ribbons and medals -- earned by participating in events or drill competitions or mastering skills -- must be appropriately pinned to jackets.

Some students sport dozens of ribbons and medals.

The cadets quickly learn the daily routines of roll call, marching and uniform care. By the second month of school, they stand in formation in the courtyard of the five-story building, looking like a well-oiled machine.

JROTC borrows heavily from military structures, including the chain of command and respect for authority. Hardee has a few of his own rules.

"We don't use 'I can't' here," he told cadets one afternoon in class. "We don't say stupid and we don't swear here."

Same goes for gum-chewing.

A long-term instructor

Michael Thore has been a JROTC instructor at Galileo for 15 years, watching class after class of cadets pass through. Before that, he spent 25 years in the Army -- a stint that started with his "welcome letter" in the 1968 draft.

He served a year in Vietnam as a helicopter pilot, something he doesn't often tell the kids, unless they press him on it. This is the third time he's faced the prospect of the program's elimination.

His voice fills with emotion when he speaks of students. There's Charles, who is autistic. The boy marches in every parade, slightly off-step, but he's there.

The former lieutenant colonel sat in the "Range," a cavernous, cement-walled room that used to be a firing range. Students like to point to holes in the ceiling that they said were the result of poorly aimed shots.

Guns of any kind are no longer allowed on campus or in the JROTC program -- even fake wooden ones. Students now use poles to perform drills.

As Thore described the JROTC program at Galileo, a boy named Sean walked into the Range.

"Colonel, sir?" the student said. "I have to go to a doctor's appointment."

"OK," Thore responded. "See you tomorrow."

Watching the boy leave, Thore explained that Sean, like Charles, is in special education with a developmental disability. The boy is in his fourth year in JROTC.

"I'm not sure what Sean will do someday," Thore said, pride filling his voice as his eyes turned a watery red. "He's a decent, good kid."

Student is a teacher

Talen usually wears pale pink or kelly green polo shirts on nonuniform days, the collar flipped up in a preppie style harking back to the 1980s. He stands out. The school is filled with students wearing black, gray or white.

On a recent uniform day in sixth period, Talen went through the routine in Echo Company. After taking attendance, Talen told the 35 students to stop talking. He was about to start a quiz.

Hardee watched from his chair in the back office.

This is Talen's third year in JROTC. Not only is he a leader, but he is also a teacher. Top-level cadets control classes most days. Hardee steps in when necessary and to teach particular topics.

The quiz included 50 multiple-choice questions -- with topics including first aid, civics and Army rank and protocol -- each projected onto a large screen from a laptop computer. Students used remote controls to mark their answers.

They had 30 seconds for each question. One question asked the definition of latitude; others required recognition of rank insignia or the official date for Flag Day.

Then came this: "JROTC is designed to enlist cadets into the Armed Forces. A) True. B) False."

Four students answered A, and 34 chose B -- the correct answer.

A few questions later, students started to twitter. Talen yelled, "At ease." He challenged a student he believed was cheating. The boy said it was not true, but classmates contradicted him.

"Outside," Talen told the boy, and followed him to the hall.

Their conversation was inaudible inside the classroom. They returned a minute later, having missed a couple of questions, and continued taking the quiz. Later, Talen said he told his classmate that cheating was against school rules and the boy would get an "F" for the day.

Camaraderie

On a Friday a few weeks into the school year, classes were over for the day and Galileo's five floors were nearly empty. Hardee was in his office, looking at a bulletin board covered with student photos -- prom pictures, graduation pictures, goofy pictures of kids hanging out -- nearly all former cadets.

"City College, City College, State," he said, pointing at one student after another, identifying where they are now. "I can tell you none of these guys up here are in the military."

The career military man sat back down in his chair and stared at the dozen or so students meeting in the adjacent classroom. The students were discussing changes to the program's system of merits and demerits.

Hardee shook his head.

"What day is it?" he yelled to the students. "I have a life. I have a date tonight. Go home."

The students glanced at him and smirked, but didn't move.

Some students enroll in JROTC to get out of running laps in gym class. Other students leave when they realize JROTC can be harder than running laps around the school. Most students stay. They like the structure, the unconditional acceptance regardless of physical ability, and the sense that they are part of a team, even if they can't or don't play sports.

They say they feel safe there.

As the students discussed the program's structure of discipline and rewards, Hardee got up and walked out into the basement hallway. His eyes widened as he heard the muffled sound of drums. Approaching the courtyard, the sound got louder.

Boom. Boom. Rat-a-tat-tat. Boom, boom, boom.

The students had pulled the instruments from the JROTC drum corps closet to practice. It wasn't a practice day, but tryouts were coming up.

More than 50 students were scattered across the inner courtyard. There were snare drums and large bass drums. Students huddled around individual instruments, with experienced students teaching younger peers how to play.

Rat-a-tat-tat-a-tat-tat. Pause. Boom. Boom. Boom.

The students didn't want to leave. Hardee shook his head and walked back to his office.

Struggle to keep up

Six weeks into the school year, Talen knew he'd missed too many classes and assignments. He wasn't sure what his grade-point average was -- probably somewhere below a 2.0.

School officials are keeping a close eye, urging him to attend all his classes.

But cutting class has become a problem. He doesn't offer excuses or further explanation. He doesn't blame his home life or personal problems.

"I'm going to fix my grades," he said. "I'm working it out."

He doesn't want to be on probation, perhaps losing his spot on the drill team or his leadership position. He realizes he's setting a bad example.

He believes JROTC needs him and he needs JROTC.

"People are counting on me," he said. "I hate pulling people down with me."
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Bengal
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Post by Bengal »

Very interesting and informative, thanks.

Sortep, I want to thank you for your service to this country. While I don't agree with the political motivations that have driven any of the operations that sent our soldiers into the desert in the last ten years, it falls to the soldier to execute their orders with speed and precision, regardless of their commander's agendas, and acting out that duty is commendable.

However, while your sacrifices for this country, and by extension for me, are many in number and may weigh heavy, I still disagree with your position.

My job training took over six months to complete, and cost the Army a quarter of a million dollars. Adding, in addition, combat arms training, would take far too much time and be prohibitively expensive, since so very many of the soldiers in the Army wouldn't normally recieve that training.

I was not trained to kill. I was trained to keep our soldiers alive by keeping them out of danger, and by helping them keep our enemies IN danger. My MOS was not a forward MOS. If I ever had a rifle in my hands while on duty, I was either re-certifying at the range, or hypothetically, the command center was about to be overrun, and a general who hasn't fired a shot off the range for over a decade is about to pick up a rifle and fight too.
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Post by Sortep »

I was never trying to flame, but I will never change my opinion that all soldiers should be sufficiently trained for combat as well as their mos. Just from my experiences, it was almost insane. I'm not saying that cooks should go through so much mout training that cs doesn't bother them. But I feel that all mos's should be trained enough to where the feel of the weapon isn't awkward and the successful operation of said weapon is second nature and requires no thought.
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psi29a
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Post by psi29a »

I (and to the same extent Sortep as well) didn't say you should train like a ground pounder. Their MOS is to kill things that move with anything you can find or your bare hands. Obviously a MOS like radio tech needn't know the ins and out of a SAW, however some prudent PT and some time on the riflerange can keep you on par.

Seriously, even in the civilian world my work consists of sitting in a chair all day converting coffee into code. I still find time outside of my job to exercise and should time/money permit, squeeze off a few rounds to see if I can make center of a quarter 50~100 yards away with any 'ol bolt action.

However, I think while one is in the military that should have a min standard for combat readiness. Even weekend warriors train a few times a month.
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Bengal
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Post by Bengal »

The issue you're addressing now is slightly different, and here I agree with you.

The Army already HAS minimum combat readiness standards for everyone, regardless of MOS. There are minimum PT standards, Daily PT is mandatory, and There are minimum marksmanship standards, with mandatory recirtification.

The problem arises because many soft units do their best to subvert those two rules as they "aren't mission essential."

I was still an excellent marksman and passing my PT test with flying colours when I was outprocessed for weight gain (I had injured my hip, and running hurt like you cannot imagine, but I did it anyway for the test. I just couldn't run enough to lose weight.)

Neither of those things was essential to my mission. I sat in a chair all day converting garbled bits of information into extrapolated data about enemy forces. But I still did them as any GOOD soldier SHOULD do.

In that light, yes, there is a certain level of combat readiness required, but it's already in place so long as no one tries to cheat the system.
Forgive me father, for I have sinned, and find me guilty for true guilt comes from within.
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