On the current status of Berserk and stuff...

[Deathbringer]

Whoa Psi. I´m relative new to berserk, i got started in 4 months more-or-less and i only read Berserk once, that´s why i don´t discuss a lot around here, but that chat you posted about Guts and Griffith´s nature right there was very insightful.

[Fuji Nagase]

yes, i agree baz. even the visual background of where the eclipse happens isn't really implying "good" but more "evil". it is true that in most comics, they idea of good and evil is questioned. however, i don't think that is what miura intended to be a focus. throwing out such labels is important to understanding characters as real people.

about the whole griffith and caska thing. sadly, i never actually got what griffith was doing in the back of the wagon. U.U i know, i know, its stupid. but now that i think about it more, in essence i think it might have not been that he was trying to rape caska, but over power her in some, any way, and then with the look on his face (and in the anime) shaking all over, he was trying to show his frustration. i thought he was just trying to show how mad he was overall when i first read it/saw it. caska was taking care of him, and i think that is on top of caska being "taken away", was hard for him to deal with. but it seems like griffith took caska for granted through most of the story. he only wanted caska because guts had her? like a child only wants what the other kid has, whether they actually like it or not. or maybe like if someone has a crush on you and u don't like them, but u would somehow get offended if they were going out with someone else.

in his dream, griffith was married to caska. i always thought it was just something that griffith just kind of thought would happen in the back of his mind. she seemed to be the only female influence around him. but since he had to get with the princess, he maybe did like caska, but couldn't show it or anything? (I'm just throwing out ideas here.) we all assumed that griffith was beyond caska in every way, in the sense that he would never go for her. i don't really believe this, but do u think that maybe he did have feelings for her other than as a comrade, or in spite of guts? the relationship between caska and griffth isn't really concrete.

[Istvan]

in his dream, griffith was married to caska. i always thought it was just something that griffith just kind of thought would happen in the back of his mind. she seemed to be the only female influence around him. but since he had to get with the princess, he maybe did like caska, but couldn't show it or anything? (I'm just throwing out ideas here.) we all assumed that griffith was beyond caska in every way, in the sense that he would never go for her. i don't really believe this, but do u think that maybe he did have feelings for her other than as a comrade, or in spite of guts? the relationship between caska and griffth isn't really concrete.

My impression on that dream was that it was Griffith imagining what the future would be. Caska would continue to take care of him (she would have) in peace and tranquility, the other's would slowly come by less and less, and Guts would be off somewhere swinging his sword. After picturing all of this, Griffith promptly tries to commit suicide, because such a purposeless life, without a dream or anything else, simply existing, would be intolerable to someone like him. It's not so much that he wan't to marry Caska as that he correctly predicted that in such a life she would be the one to stay with and take care of him.

[freegood]

I think Griffith is evil. The Idea and all its offspring are evil. Contrary to what the manga claimed from the God Hands, I believe the Idea is a product of humanity's despair. Desperation never leads to sound judgements.

The reason the God Hands themselves believe to be above good and evil is because they wield ridiculous power so whatever they want can happen. There is no moral dilemma: Whatever is, will be...Might equals right.

That's why they can arrogantly assume everything is preplanned or fated.


Now Griffith's power is derived from the God Hands, and the Idea, which assumes that the people subconsciously wants to be dominated by their demon interests.

So where does Guts's strength comes from? Guts's power comes from humanity's collective hope.

Guts is supposedly a product of fate. He was made to be strong. He was made to be a survivor. Yet, the fates were too good that Guts didn't die after the eclipse. After the eclipse he's getting stronger mentally and physically even before the Berserker armor. Also the Skull Knight could've given any chump the Berserker armor, but who can really master the armor?

His companions weren't fated to be with Guts. No, they were drawn to Guts. If power was made into a flame, but Griffith and Guts would be seen miles away.

Then there's the ongoing parallels with the Skull Knight. The Skull Knight once ruled the entire continent. After several centuries, that grip was shattered. Maybe his hedonism and corruption disillusioned the masses and made the Idea stronger. This could possibly be behind the birth of the God Hand then.

So Guts may be on the verge of becoming as powerful as the Skull Knight when it united the continent. His companions are becoming more powerful after witnessing the insane enemies Guts takes down. They're not overcoming fate. They're beginning to hope. Despair would've allowed them to be controlled. Guts companions and those around Guts in every arc have taken action for themselves when it would've have normally made sense to run, cheat, or backstab.

Hope is in constant conflict with the Idea. Guts is the manefestation of it.

[Baz]

God Hand has never said they were good or even neutral, they have always claimed to be evil.

Vol 3 Page 85

Griffith/Femto: It only feels like a needle prick with small amounts of evil…
Griffith/Femto: But with larger amounts of evil, it responds with a pain that increases indefinitely.
Griffith/Femto: And if the evil becomes too great…
Griffith/Femto: …the pain will kill you!
Griffith/Femto: That's far enough.

This is where Guts walks up to Femto to swing his sword at him.

As for Guts, who knows where he stands in all of this but Miura.

[Istvan]

I think Griffith is evil. The Idea and all its offspring are evil. Contrary to what the manga claimed from the God Hands, I believe the Idea is a product of humanity's despair. Desperation never leads to sound judgements.

Idea's own explanation for its exhistence, that it was created out of humanities desire to have reasons for their suffering, actually makes a lot more sense both on a story level (the actions that it has undertaken) and on a logical level (people expierencing complete despair aren't actually all that common, and when they do it doesn't usually last all that long. Vast numbers of people want to know why bad things happen to them, so it would give a lot more power if the power comes from the desire).

As for Idea recruiting the Apostles and God Hand when they are feeling despair, that's probably just the most effective time to do it. Indeed, given that they require sacrificing those most precious to you, it might be the only time when most individuals could be recruited.

So where does Guts's strength comes from? Guts's power comes from humanity's collective hope.

Guts is supposedly a product of fate. He was made to be strong. He was made to be a survivor. Yet, the fates were too good that Guts didn't die after the eclipse. After the eclipse he's getting stronger mentally and physically even before the Berserker armor. Also the Skull Knight could've given any chump the Berserker armor, but who can really master the armor?

Last, when looking at Guts, a large part of the story seems to resolve around the fact that his power comes from himself, and him doing what he can do, not from any external source. Where do you see any evidence at all that he's drawing power from the collective will of humanity? Can you name any instance where he did something that would lend credence to this belief? Because I can't think of any. Probably Skull Knight was just waiting for someone strong enough and determined enough to deserve having the armor, or who could make proper use of it. Why do either of these characteristics require him to be powered by humanities hope?[/quote]

[freegood]

Istvan,

Great reply and points. I need more proof, so I'll have to read the entire manga again and look at the theory again. Here's some points that made me think of the original post:

-Between upgrades, Guts seems to destroy enemies when they're both at critical levels. Enemies get stronger, Guts doesn't seem to have a plateau.

-If they are powered by one unconscious collective human desire, then it's reasonable that other desires are manifested elsewhere.

-The introduction of magic also gives the direction that humans aren't supernatural because sorcerers rely on other conduits, yet the main supernatural force is created by humanity. It doesn't mean they all have special powers, just capabilities that might be overlooked.

[FightClub]

I think Griffith is evil. The Idea and all its offspring are evil. Contrary to what the manga claimed from the God Hands, I believe the Idea is a product of humanity's despair. Desperation never leads to sound judgements.

Idea's own explanation for its exhistence, that it was created out of humanities desire to have reasons for their suffering, actually makes a lot more sense both on a story level (the actions that it has undertaken) and on a logical level (people expierencing complete despair aren't actually all that common, and when they do it doesn't usually last all that long. Vast numbers of people want to know why bad things happen to them, so it would give a lot more power if the power comes from the desire).

As for Idea recruiting the Apostles and God Hand when they are feeling despair, that's probably just the most effective time to do it. Indeed, given that they require sacrificing those most precious to you, it might be the only time when most individuals could be recruited.

So where does Guts's strength comes from? Guts's power comes from humanity's collective hope.

Guts is supposedly a product of fate. He was made to be strong. He was made to be a survivor. Yet, the fates were too good that Guts didn't die after the eclipse. After the eclipse he's getting stronger mentally and physically even before the Berserker armor. Also the Skull Knight could've given any chump the Berserker armor, but who can really master the armor?

Last, when looking at Guts, a large part of the story seems to resolve around the fact that his power comes from himself, and him doing what he can do, not from any external source. Where do you see any evidence at all that he's drawing power from the collective will of humanity? Can you name any instance where he did something that would lend credence to this belief? Because I can't think of any. Probably Skull Knight was just waiting for someone strong enough and determined enough to deserve having the armor, or who could make proper use of it. Why do either of these characteristics require him to be powered by humanities hope?

[/quote]

Pretty sure it directly says that Guts avoided his fate, which was to die under his mothers corpse, until he was rescued. Which directly made him unbound by fate. So I agree with you, everything he is, is under his own accumulation, there is not outside influence, Guts fate is for Guts to determine, and that's what makes him a threat to the god hand. That's why he's viewed as the struggler, he struggles on a daily basis to avoid his ultimate fate, death which he has avoided so far.

[Istvan]

Istvan,

Great reply and points. I need more proof, so I'll have to read the entire manga again and look at the theory again. Here's some points that made me think of the original post:

-Between upgrades, Guts seems to destroy enemies when they're both at critical levels. Enemies get stronger, Guts doesn't seem to have a plateau.

-If they are powered by one unconscious collective human desire, then it's reasonable that other desires are manifested elsewhere.

-The introduction of magic also gives the direction that humans aren't supernatural because sorcerers rely on other conduits, yet the main supernatural force is created by humanity. It doesn't mean they all have special powers, just capabilities that might be overlooked.

The other manifestation would be the elementals (and other similiar creatures) that Schierke calls on when she casts a spell. All of these are created by humanity. The burning wheel thing that Schierke has called in the last couple of chapters, for example, is manifested by war and battle. So the other thoughts are being manifested, but Idea is the most powerful, because of how much time and energy humans spend wanting something to be the cause of their suffering.