Right to Life or Right to Choose?

[psi29a]

source

They're singin' along with Cher in South Dakota. "If I could turn back time ..." they warbled in the state legislature last Friday as legislatures approved a bill that would outlaw abortion in all cases (including rape and incest) except when the mother's life is in danger.

Nice of them to allow the mother to live.

Not so nice to condemn the 13-year-old victim of incest to bear her father's child. Oh well. The baby will no doubt be adopted by some deserving childless couple who will bring it up right. That should make the other child, the one who is the mother, (who is probably now in foster care) feel better.

Not so nice for the victim of rape who was accosted on her way home from work and forced at gunpoint to suffer a violation upon her body. Already traumatized, she soon found out she was pregnant. Oh well. She can offer the child up to another well-deserving couple who've been waiting years to adopt. That'll make her feel better.

As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Article XI of The Treaty of Tripoli
As ratified by the Senate and signed by President John Adams on June 10, 1797

[raider]

It is sad that things like that happen but the child has a right to live.

[Buzkashi]

Yea. I think its wrong in cases of rape or incest that the mother not be able to get an abortion. But in pretty much every other case I'm against it. Be responsible for your actions.

[Ellen]

Instead of worrying about this, we should just kill all the rapists and pedophiles etc. Problem solved.

[Sortep]

Now everyone can be happy


Against abortion, but for killing babies.

(Courtesy of Maddox http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net ... regressive )

[Libaax]

Im pro choose cause women must thier right to control thier body specialy in rape and incest cases.

Live that isnt live yet cant have more rights than those victims or other women who wants to abort for some reason.





"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion"


How things have changed in us since Adams time.....

[raider]

I agree with you Ellen that we should deal with them in that manner. Like I said before the unborn have a right to live.

[psi29a]

I agree with you Ellen that we should deal with them in that manner. Like I said before the unborn have a right to live.

But does the unborn have more of a right to live than the mother? Who are we to decide, judge & jury?

The mother should be allowed the choice, and take responsiblity for her own action. No one has the right to tell someone how to live theirs.

However, that is my take. I would love for all of us to live, but as McNamara said, you sometimes have to do 'evil' to do good.

Now, should the courts ban abortion, then I have no choice but to comply but I can at least protest it, or leave to a more liberal country.

[Quest]

i agree with psi29a.
every mother will have their unborn child's interests at heart and should have the freedom to decide if abortion is better an abnormal life.
in this case or in any other case.

[newbified]

Not to mention dependant on where you live, you might incur serious financial debts by having a child that you had no intention of having in the first place. Our it could simply cost the mother her life if there are complications.

Who are we as a society to decide what others can do with their bodies? This of course also relates to things like drug use, however whereas drug use is detrimental to our bodies, abortions have come a long way since people were forced to use things like coat hangers. Also a news flash, simply because it's against the law, won't stop people from getting this treatment if they truly desire it. Which then opens up things like unsterile, unsafe abortion clinics, where someone is indeed waiting for you with something much like a coat hanger, to perform this operation.

Now I pose a hypothetical to each and every one of you who is against the termination of life in cases of rape or incest. Some of you may not be able to answer this question truthfully, but I'll ask it anyway.

Now, hypothetically say your wife was walking home from work one day, when a man grabs her from an alley and rapes her. A few weeks later you find out that she's pregnant. What would you honestly do? Raise the child as your own and take a gigantic financial hit? Put the child up for adoption and still pay for the bills you would incur at the hospital? Also what happens if your wife is a high risk case and carrying the child may cause her to lose her life?

And another hypothetical. Let's say your 14 year old sister turns up pregnant, and it turns out your own father helped to concieve this child? Would you be gung-ho about having a new nephew or niece? Or would you be horrified that your 14 year old sister has no choice but to carry a child that she was most likely manipulated into having by someone who's supposed to have much more sense? And then even better, what happens if she's high risk as well and carrying this baby which she doesn't want might cause her to lose her life. These types of situations are so much fun to think about aren't they?

And just imagine, we only have to think about it. Imagine what it would be like to have a child growing inside you that was put their forcibly by someone who you didn't know, or someone who betrayed your trust? And that you had to go to term with this baby, and then either give it up for adoption or care for it yourself.

Now I'm not saying I condone things like repeat abortions where others use it as a form of contraceptive (much like the "morning-after" pill). However I think that this is a viable option for those who have little other choice.

And don't even get me started on pharmacists who refuse to fulfill prescriptions...

[Buzkashi]

As long as we're talking abortion in ONLY in cases of incest and/or rape then its all gravy.

[Killfile]

As long as we're talking abortion in ONLY in cases of incest and/or rape then its all gravy.

Why? Is an unborn fetus any LESS innocent if it is the product of a traumatic conception? Qualifying statements like this bely a strange understanding of human morality.

At any given moment, a fetus either is or is not a human being. Where you draw the line is unquestionably a matter of faith -- but there can be no "middle" status.

Given that, and assuming we're talking about the "is a human being" side of the line - why are you ok with killing a human child just because its father was a rapist or guilty of incest?

Abortion is a polarizing issue specifically because of this binary opposition. Drawing the line and saying "well a fetus is a human being at 3 months... unless it is a product of rape or incest" is a cowardly out. It's trying to restrict abortion rights while at the same time trying to look like a decent human being.

It all comes back to when we start to distinguish a specific lump of parasitic cells as "human" instead of a growth. As soon as that distinction occurs, abortion is categorically immoral and wrong.* The only intellectually honest approaches to this debate center around WHEN a fetus becomes human... not under what specific circumstances it becomes ok to kill a child.

* Note: The astute reader will rather the "life of the mother" point here. This is not a matter of legal, but of medical morality. Doctors are trained to triage patients to determine which patients have the best possibility of surviving and how to best bring about that survival. If a medical professional determines that either the mother or child will die if birth occurs and that one or the other can be saved it is his medical duty to do what can be done.

[LordMune]

I'm pro-abortion in all cases; unwanted children and unhappy, often single low-wage mothers generally don't contribute much to society as a whole.

[psi29a]

At any given moment, a fetus either is or is not a human being. Where you draw the line is unquestionably a matter of faith -- but there can be no "middle" status.

I call BS on that one, Never say Never. More importantly, why should someone's faith dictate to others how to live? Bear with me because this is a finer point of the abortion debate which irratates me to no end.

We either have a law banning all abortion or we allow ALL forms of abortion. That is what I get from Killfile's argument. Please correct me or further your train of thought.

There can be a middle ground, we do it all the time. It is called compromise. Wrong, Right, Good, Bad... that issue can probably be hashed out in another thread as I find the notion of morality irrelevant and niave.

Morality:

1) Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.

2) Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.

3) Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life.

4) Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation.

5) Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support.

6) Based on strong likelihood or firm conviction, rather than on the actual evidence: a moral certain

Summation: Morality == strong likelihood or firm conviction of what is right and/or just behavior. Does NOT mean what is right, just what is thought to be right. Which is a big difference. Again, do not put what 'you' think is right on other people.

The mother (to be) has the right to choose, free of outside 'faith', by her own judgement as dictated by their own 'faith' (per killfile's thought). She has to live with that choice, forever.

[Quest]

newbified,

my response would still be the same:
let the victim decide.
and standby the victim's decision.
because she wants what is best for the child and herself.

=)

[newbified]

Of course. I wasn't suggesting that we begin mandatory abortions or anything of the like. My hypothetical situations were mostly to those who are against abortions.

[Killfile]

We either have a law banning all abortion or we allow ALL forms of abortion. That is what I get from Killfile's argument. Please correct me or further your train of thought.

Slow down there cowboy -- when did I start talking about "laws?"

The legislative system, and governance in general is ALL about compromise.

But ethics aren't, and neither is religion.

I'm fine with the creation of laws that seek to find middle ground or laws that seek to establish a compromise between viewpoints. What I object to is the idea that a single individual is willing to say "Well I was against abortion for 1st Trimester pregancies because I think it's killing children... but if the kid's the product of rape, well shit, slit his damn throat."

To be clear - there is a difference between saying "I oppose abortion because a fetus is a human being, unless its the product or rape or incest" and "I oppose abortion, but understand that others don't. I'd like to see abortion after [TIME-X] banned, but understand that I can't get this accomplished politically unless I allow exceptions for rape and incest. I morn the loss of these children, but this is a war that must be fought one battle at a time."

I substitute taught in the public schools for a year. Personally, I don't think they're human beings until they can vote. Killfile for President - Support a Woman's right to Fifty-Fourth trimester abortions!

[Sura]

in a democracy people should have a right to choose, i don't belive in abortion, but the goverment making life or death decisions in a family's inner circle is wrong. if a person is raped this person should not be forced by the government / religious leaders to have this child

[psi29a]

in a democracy people should have a right to choose, i don't belive in abortion, but the goverment making life or death decisions in a family's inner circle is wrong. if a person is raped this person should not be forced by the government / religious leaders to have this child

Thought experiment, when would it be ok?

Battlestar Galatica went over this, with 27 thousand people left of humanity, and the number typically decreases by 10 a week on average. Does the government (whats left of it, executive branch) have the authority to ban abortions? At this point, it becomes a matter of national security, because check it out... the human race is near extinction (previously 10 billion).

[Albator]

The real problem here is that people try to draw a line where the actual scientific knowledge can't really help. We try to define what's alive based on incomplete information: how do you define living, at conception, when the heart beats, when the synapses connect? And even if it's alive, is it human?
This questions were already investigated by the greek philosophers about 400-500BC, and we still don't know. It's not even sure we will ever know. So people try to define that based on personal values, kind of a 'gut' logic. So this question is really just an ego fight.
I just want to add to the argument that abortion is actually a pretty painful and risky procedure, even these days: risks of infection and lasting damages to the reproduction organs exists (it's not the cinder but still). But the worst are probably the psychological damages that most woman will feel, and just for that I think that allowing abortion might not lead to abuse anyway. So why not keep it?
The debate on the abortion is legitimate in my view, because there is issues to debate. But the danger is that if the logic of some people against abortion is written into law, then the next target is the contraceptive pill: since each gamete is a seed of life, isn't it a murder of human life to prevent them to fusion? And that's how you stifle liberty, littel by little.

[raziel]

ok, i'm against abortion, but a little iffy on rape and incest (calm down killfile). The reason why i am not sure about abortions under these conditions is because the kid may be a painful reminder of what happened to the woman. Sure, every life is precious, but having an abortion under these circumstances may be (i hate to say this)... acceptable. THink about the long term consequences. The mother may eventually not be able to tolerate this painful reminder and do something crazy or end up alienating the child which can needless to say, have dramatic consequences for the kid.

[Albator]

Isn't it the same for a 16-years old girl that get pregnant but is not ready to take care of the child? Or for any child that her mother doesn't want for that matter?
If you're worry about the child then you should be for abortion altogether.

[Sortep]

we should just have random years were we abort all the children.... then everyone can be happy... the mothers who want to abort can concieve on those years... and those against the right of choice have nothing to complain about because really the people don't have a choice...


seriously though... we should have in place the system we do now and uphold roe vs wade... after the 2nd trimester no abortions... before that... right of choice... in the words of bill clinton "abortion should be safe, legal, and seldom used."

and statistically... america has one of the lowest population percentages of abortions... no one should complain about this.

[vtwahoo]

seriously though... we should have in place the system we do now and uphold roe vs wade... after the 2nd trimester no abortions... before that... right of choice... in the words of bill clinton "abortion should be safe, legal, and seldom used."

That's not the system that we have now and it's not what Roe v. Wade said either.

Roe (which was itself a compromise decision) set up a trimester system. Women had unregulated access to abortion in their first trimester, more regulated in their second, and no access in their third unless an abortion was necessary to save the life of the mother OR if there was something wrong with the fetus (remember...there was a measles scare around this time). The trimester system was designed to deal with the idea of viability...when the fetus could survive outside of the mother's womb it was considered to be "life" (though it could not inherit property and had no other rights associated with human life or citizenship under the laws of these United States).

The trimester system went the way of the dodo a few years later. Today (well until these nut job legislatures started passing assinine laws) women have access to abortions at any point in their pregnancy for any reason. There's a big difference.

Killfile is right...both from a moral and a legal standpoint.

A fetus either IS or IS NOT a human being. Abortion is either murder or it's not.

The United States has never afforded a fetus the property or civil rights of a human being. All pre-birth legal agreements are contingent upon the child being born alive. That's a legal decision that has remained constant even as abortion legislation has not. And that's becuase the debate ISN'T a legal one...it's a religious one.

The religious question is not one for public debate nor for public policy. It's personal. I believe in personal responsibility---the responsibility to be true to YOUR personal beliefs. If you consider abortion to be wrong, don't have an abortion. And volunteer to adopt children from women who choose to put them up for adoption. But do NOT presume to tell me or any other woman what we can do with our bodies.

I hear a lot about being pro-life. How about being pro-woman? Do you want to condemn your sisters and daughters and girlfriends to shoving coat hangers into their uteruses to get rid of unwanted pregnancies? Abortions have been a constant throughout history. I just want to keep them safe and accessible so that I keep the women who seek them safe.

[Gaiseric]

I agree with vtwahoo, I believe a woman should make her own choice, regardless of others beliefs. I am not pro-woman, I'm a guy and its not really my problem. I just think people should make their own decisions concerning their bodies. Besides, if they want an abortion, they will get it one way or another.