Father beats child into coma and

Post by **Libaax** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:26 pm

wants to control of her right to live.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1379494

Of course the bastard wants to control her right to live if she dies he is charged with murder.

Post by **Killfile** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:00 pm

Raises some interesting questions though.

Does she have a right to die? When deciding issues like the right to die, judges (and to a lesser extent) legislators are asked to consider both the obvious - and the nightmare scenarios.

This is the nightmare. The person who wants her to live is the one who is in the most indefensible position possible. So then we have to ask - what about this case?

It's easy to be against the right to die when you're talking about Terri Shaivo (another can of worms for later in this thread no doubt), because her parents were such sympathetic figures. This man is perhaps their antithesis, yet Frist, DeLay, Bush and the other Culture of Lifers must defend this man's wishes with equal fervor or risk hypocrisy.

Most ironically, is the implicit statement that the Court, the Media, and everyone else have already made in this case. If she dies after the removal of life-support, and if she dies than the father is charged with murder - then it follows that we've all accepted the fact that it is was the beating, and not the removal of life-support that really kills her.

And if THAT's the case, than we've also already accepted that, since life-support can not continue indefinitely, she is already dead - and it is only the formality of a heart beat that stands between her father and a murder charge.

So the entire life-support debate is moot. On life support without hope of recovery is the same thing as dead. If it wasn't, it would be the nurse or doctor that unhooked her that had to worry about the murder rap.

Wow! I've solved the nation-wide right to die debate. I wonder if I can balance the budget before lunch.

Post by **Sortep** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:08 pm

i wouldn't doubt it... i need to move out of your city... killfile = dangerously intelligent... damn

Post by **Libaax** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:12 pm

The doctor said she is a veg and will be like that rest of her life,which is cruel.

With feedin tube alone she will life as long as two months.

Its good that they wanna let her go.

Its clear as day what kills her, she didnt become a veg on her own.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 99,00.html

He doesn't have any right over her,the social services has the custody of the girl now. Which means he is a goner and will get his punishment.

Normally im not pro or against death penalty but this guy doesn't deserve to live.

What makes me even more sick is that the stepfather and her adoptive mother beat her very badly weeks before and they just returned the girl to them.

If the social services had cared about her then,she would be alive right now.

Post by **Killfile** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:18 pm

No custody - I know, but Shaivo's parents didn't have custody either since she was married to what's-his-name.

Historically speaking, little details like the law haven't gotten in the way of protesters and activists. This time though, they have an unsympathetic figure to rally around.

Funny how we won't see any Congressional outrage over this little girl's death yet Shaivo warrents literally hours of debate on the House floor.

Post by **Libaax** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:23 pm

I dont know what to make of your last post if i dont know what happened in the Shaivo case. Have any link to that case?

Post by **Killfile** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:41 pm

Libaax wrote:I dont know what to make of your last post if i dont know what happened in the Shaivo case. Have any link to that case?

Done and done. Here ya go.

Short Version:
Terri Schiavo goes into a coma
Husband sits by her side for ten years while nothing changes.
Brain damage is dignosed as irreversable
Husband petitions for the hospital to pull the plug - among other reasons because he's moved on with his life and has met somone else and he'd like to get married.
Parents say they don't want plug pulled, claim their daughter would never want that.
Husband indicates that Terri expressly stated that she didn't want to be kept alive
Legal battle ensues
Congress somehow gets involved - national debate ensues
Bill Frist (a cardiologist and also the Senate Majority Leader) sees a short video clip of Terri's most active moments over the last 10 years (she blinks) and "diagnoses" her as capable of recovery.
Life support terminated
Autopsy reveals that 75% of her brain was destroyed and that recovery was totally impossible.

Post by **vtwahoo** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:43 pm

Sortep wrote:killfile = dangerously intelligent... damn

Like his ego needed that. Thanks. Thanks a lot.

Post by **Libaax** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:48 pm

Killfile wrote:
Libaax wrote:I dont know what to make of your last post if i dont know what happened in the Shaivo case. Have any link to that case?

Done and done. Here ya go.

Short Version:
Terri Schiavo goes into a coma
Husband sits by her side for ten years while nothing changes.
Brain damage is dignosed as irreversable
Husband petitions for the hospital to pull the plug - among other reasons because he's moved on with his life and has met somone else and he'd like to get married.
Parents say they don't want plug pulled, claim their daughter would never want that.
Husband indicates that Terri expressly stated that she didn't want to be kept alive
Legal battle ensues
Congress somehow gets involved - national debate ensues
Bill Frist (a cardiologist and also the Senate Majority Leader) sees a short video clip of Terri's most active moments over the last 10 years (she blinks) and "diagnoses" her as capable of recovery.
Life support terminated
Autopsy reveals that 75% of her brain was destroyed and that recovery was totally impossible.

The case arent very similar cause in the little girls case,the doctors knew for sure that she would never wake up and the only reason someone want her to wake up is to save his own ass.

Those who have custody of her did want to let her go.

Schiavo atleast had a chance,she blinked.

I think these case should decided by the doctors,if they are 100% sure the person will never wake up,let them go instead of being stuck in a shell for the rest of their lives.

Post by **Killfile** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:57 pm

Terri's doctors WERE 100% that she wouldn't wake up. Pretty much every medical professional in the country was sure. Blinking is an involentary reaction. It doesn't indicate cognitive function.

Frist wanted to use this for political gain and decided to wave his MD around on the flood of the US House in hopes that it would give him more credibility. Maybe if he was a nurologist it would have helped, but you don't bring a brain damage patient to a cardiologist for the same reason you don't bring your kids to the vet.

Personally, I think he violated the hippocratic oath. Someone should yank his medical licence.

Post by **panasonic** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:58 pm

the problem with what u r suggesting is that doctors never give a 100% guarantee. they always use words like "it is highly probable", "highly unlikely" etc. furthermore, there will always be doctors that disagree with another doctors thinking

Post by **newbified** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:02 pm

Let's not forget in the Shaivo case the blatant lying on the pro-life crowd, who said that when asked if she wanted to live or die she said "I want" and then trailed off as the room burst into cries of amazement.

Really makes you wonder what they thought they heard when they then find out that she was practically missing ¾ of her brain.

Post by **Skullkracker** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:11 pm

damn, another sad story

Post by **Libaax** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:16 pm

Killfile wrote:Terri's doctors WERE 100% that she wouldn't wake up. Pretty much every medical professional in the country was sure. Blinking is an involentary reaction. It doesn't indicate cognitive function.

Frist wanted to use this for political gain and decided to wave his MD around on the flood of the US House in hopes that it would give him more credibility. Maybe if he was a nurologist it would have helped, but you don't bring a brain damage patient to a cardiologist for the same reason you don't bring your kids to the vet.

Personally, I think he violated the hippocratic oath. Someone should yank his medical licence.

Why im not suprised that it only got so much attention just cause of some politic gain.

The reason they dont make a big thing for the little girl is that its low even for politics to try to gain something from the case.

Post by **Loeviz** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:39 pm

Killfile wrote: Funny how we won't see any Congressional outrage over this little girl's death yet Shaivo warrents literally hours of debate on the House floor.

Yeah there you see that they don´t really care whatever happens, they only want people to think they give 2 cent´s about it.

Post by **vtwahoo** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:00 pm

Libaax wrote:The case arent very similar cause in the little girls case,the doctors knew for sure that she would never wake up and the only reason someone want her to wake up is to save his own ass.

Those who have custody of her did want to let her go.

Schiavo atleast had a chance,she blinked.

I respectfully disagree. I think that the cases are very similar. In both cases individuals who are not legally responsible for a peson in a persistent vegetative state chose to prolong said persons's suffering merely to satisfy their own selfish needs.

In the case of the father so as to NOT be charged with murder.

In the case of the parents so as to not have to grieve the loss of their child (which is hard...I get that...but it's still selfish).

In both cases the medical professionals involved were in favor of removing life support.

In both cases the people closest to the patient (the grandparents---who DIDN'T beat the child into a coma---and the husband) were in favor of removing life support.

And in both cases the patients had the right to die with dignity and the survivors had the right to grieve before moving on with their lives.

Post by **Libaax** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:26 pm

-Wanting to get married with someone else isn't the same as not wanting to be charged murder. Getting on with your life isn't as selfish as trying to save your own ass

-The grandparents of the little girl doesn't have any right to decide since social service have the custody.

-Unlike the Schiavo case it was clear who decides if the girl is removed from life support or not.

The cases are similar but not very similar.

Post by **Killfile** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:48 pm

I think you missed her point.

Terri's parents didn't want to face the death of their daughter, even though she was clearly gone.

The little girl's father doesn't want to be charged with murder.

Those are both selfish acts when you consider what they are inflicting on the victims in question.... one a great deal more sympathetic than the other though - I'll grant you that.

Second -
Terri's parents had no legal standing to prevent her removal from life support. In the absence of a living will, the next of kin is the only one with power of attorney.

The father has no legal standing to prevent his daughters removal from life support as he no longer has custody of the child. Power of attorney passes to the child's guardian.

Essentially, I think vtwahoo's point is that - while the cases are emotionally worlds apart - they are legally almost identical. Since we are dealing with laws and not warm fuzzy feelings - we must treat both appeals as legally equivalent.

I don't think anyone would argue that it's not easier to feel sorry for Terri Shaivo's parents.

Post by **Libaax** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:56 pm

Mm...

I just cant believe they even gave him the right to go to trial to make his case for a child that he beat to death....

The law is messed up at times like that.

Post by **Wandering_Mystic** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:05 pm

Man, I felt such a huge wave of deja-vu as I read the beginning of Killfile's post...

...until I realized I must have read his posts about Terri Schiavo back when that whole thing was still hot in the news

Post by **Skullkracker** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:10 pm

Libaax wrote:The law is messed up at times like that.

That's America for you!

Post by **Femto** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:19 pm

Hey Killfile, didn't Schiavo's husband have financial reasons for wanting her dead?

Or was that just a bullshit lie?

Skullkracker wrote:That's America for you!

Yeah, because there is absolutely no crime or corruption in the rest of the world.

Shut the hell up.

Post by **vtwahoo** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:42 pm

Femto wrote:Hey Killfile, didn't Schiavo's husband have financial reasons for wanting her dead?

I can field that one.

The answer is...kinda.

One: it's REALLY expensive to keep someone on life support for two decades. So, yes he did have a financial reason to no longer keep the shell of her body alive.

Two: yes he received some money from a life insurance policy upon her death. But that's why you have life insurance...to take care of those you leave behind when you die. I think that most married people want to know that their spouses will be able to live comfortably after their deaths, to find happiness and closure. There was a lot of speculation that he "wanted her dead" so that he could get the money. I think it's more accutate to say that she wanted him to have the money in the event of her death. He was merely letting her body die YEARS after her mind had already passed.

Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:14 pm

Femto wrote:Hey Killfile, didn't Schiavo's husband have financial reasons for wanting her dead?

Or was that just a bullshit lie?

Skullkracker wrote:That's America for you!
Yeah, because there is absolutely no crime or corruption in the rest of the world.

Shut the hell up.

Seriously Femto how do you explain that 1/4 of the whole worlds prisoners sits in prison in the states? ;p. Can't just blame it on having a large population :}.

Post by **Skullkracker** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:29 pm

That's not exactly what I had in mind

It's just so ridiculous that anyone can sew anybody for anything...a little too much sometimes