Superhero comics and other comics.

[Femto]

I like how all of Marvel's big events are nothing but lead-ins to the next big event.

"X is the new all-original, super new, never done before status quo for the Marvel Universe but now because of X, this event happens and now Y is the new all-original, super new, never done before status quo for the MU, but that leads to another event in which Z will become another new all-original, super new, never done before status quo" and so on and so forth.

I don't know why people get still sucked into Marvel's boring, repetitive event bullshit.

I'll get Secret Invasion in paperback because I love Leinil Yu.

I'll most likely regret my purchase.

[Buzkashi]

At first I was a lil shocked by secret invasion. I was under the impression that all the super heroes that were being copied by skrulls were killed off. They basically did away with all of that by keeping them alive.

I'm with eldo. It was entertaining.

Or should i say eldo is with me.

Or am i eldo?

does eldo wear aldo?

[Tempest]

And Tony Stark being indicted? For what? Incompetence? I don't know, could you do that? And I thought that SHIELD was an international agency, but I guess not. So they're starting a new agency called HAMMER or something. Osborn is heading it, because he made the killing shot and smiled at cameras? And what's with Thor switching from 'thou' to 'you'? Loeb to JMS version? At the end of the day, we have to suspend all logic and remind ourselves it's only a comic.

SHIELD switches from International peacekeepers to US agency pretty much at the whim of every writer who uses/mentions them in a book. It's quite annoying, and another example of how Marvel needs to just send out a memo to all their writers entitled "Indisputable FACTS of the Marvel Universe" so as to not look like a bunch of morons.

And someone should just take Loeb out behind the woodshed and give him a quick merciless death before he fucks up any more comics.

The "ending" to Batman RIP made me pretty enraged (I know that the whole "Prep time" thing is fun and all, but this was fucking retarded), although I suspect that's equally the fault of Morrison and DC editors who don't want him taking too much liberty with the character.

[Eldo]

What I liked about Morrison writing Batman was that he was different. But that's about it. I really...didn't think much of RIP overall. Really, I couldn't. There was a lot of emphasis on black and red, which at the end, to me, amounted to nothing. The final issue of RIP tells us that Bruce Wayne has a backup plan for everything; including one where he creates a Zurr-en-arh (or whatever) persona that surfaces when his mind is under siege. This scene could have been better if told earlier in the arc (I know Bat Mite mentioned it in passing, but the delivery was too bland, and wasn't stated outright). Also, now that I think about it, the whole scene about Lucky Jackson was pretty much unnecessary, because I couldn't think of how that contributed to the story besides saying that Wayne's gone bonkers.

I don't know, RIP is a good ride and enjoyable and all, but if I gave you a plot synopsis, you'll probably think it's a stupid story. 'A mysterious rich group known as the black glove messes with Batman. They infiltrate his cave and takes him out with a post-hypnotic code word. But instead of killing him, they drug him, put him out on the street where he becomes a crazy Batman. He beats some heads, then gets captured again, and instead of killing him again, they dug a grave for him and wait for him to die like a Bond villain. Batman comes back and kicks some heads again, and seemingly gets killed in a helicopter crash. The End'.

I know I'm criticising RIP, but I did enjoy it. It was a good ride, there were thrills and entertainment, but if you look at it further, it's not a great piece of work that was produced so it's best just to look at the surface. It's a really trippy experience, because there are what people call 'layer of complexities' in his arc that I didn't or don't think it's worth noticing. It felt like Morrison wrote Batman for himself, and not for the audience. We've just taken a glimpse of his mind, and we don't understand it at all. I miss his JLA days. That said, RIP may not have happened at all, because this might have happened all in his mind since he was captured in Final Crisis. The other Bat books that deal with his absence may be due to his capture in Final Crisis and not because of his disappearance in RIP.

I like how all of Marvel's big events are nothing but lead-ins to the next big event.

"X is the new all-original, super new, never done before status quo for the Marvel Universe but now because of X, this event happens and now Y is the new all-original, super new, never done before status quo for the MU, but that leads to another event in which Z will become another new all-original, super new, never done before status quo" and so on and so forth.

It's because people think that the issues are kind of consequential to the Marvel Universe and not throw-away stories that DC usually produce (with a few notable exceptions). That's why tie-ins usually do quite well. They shake the ground, get people interested, and shake the ground again. You could only beat the dead horse so many times. What has DC done? They did Infinite Crisis, which alleged 'fixed' continuity issues. They tried to shake the ground with 1 Year Later, but really didn't shake hard enough or shake it at all, because nothing changed. Everything was just the same old, carbon copy pre-crisis. Then they did Countdown, which was the 'spine' of the DC universe. It seemed the spine was really frail and that snapped in half. They introduced more continuity problems than ever. Dini is an overrated writer, and I found his writing bland and boring. DC has so many abysmal failures (which I think it's unfair to load it all on DiDio) that the DC universe and some of their mythos is a mess. I used to prefer DC over Marvel (mainly because of Geoff Johns, Grant Morrison, Mark Waid, and...did I just mention the writers of 52?), now I'm Marvel over DC.

I don't know why people get still sucked into Marvel's boring, repetitive event bullshit.

Jury's still out on that one. The hook doesn't sound that good, but as long as it's entertaining, I don't think it really matters if it's considered a masterpiece or not.

[Femto]

Marvel's events are just there for the sake of being events and having a gazillion tie-ins.

DC's events are more story and character driven.

Fuck Marvel.

[Eldo]

Marvel's events are just there for the sake of being events and having a gazillion tie-ins.

And people buy that because they reckon it plays an importance in the Marvel Universe. People want to see how the characters respond to a change in situation or how the change affects them. When Spider Man was unmasked in Civil War, the numbers in Spider Man issues skyrocketed. Marvel tries to tell stories through events, and whether it's successful or not, the jury's out on that one (according to sales though, I guess it's a 'yes').

DC tends to have much less events, because while Marvel's events are more street-like in nature, DC events are mostly of 'fabric of existence' and galactic level. I think DC could only have so many events are like before people get desensitised. That's because DC's heroes are way powerful than Marvel's, so they can't do street level events. Superman would single handedly swoop in and do a shit on the criminals, and that would be it. DC has done events and failed. Case in point: Countdown, Death of the New Gods, etc. They were all badly written, and was meant to be some sort lead in for Final Crisis.

Most of DC's stories aren't really that great. Let's take JLA for example, they're fighting Anansi. Who cares? With New Avengers, they have the hype on their side from Secret Invasion, and they're 'revealing' skrulls which are consequential to the Marvel Universe as a whole.

I know you read Green Lantern, but have you realised that GL right now is a big lead in to Blackest Night? Most of Geoff Johns' work is like that, in a way, and most people read his work because of that, and they're hooked in by the intrigue. You can argue that he's 'setting the foundation for X', but it's still a lead in to an event.

[Femto]

If DC were Marvel, the Sinestro Corps War would've been an 8 month event, followed by a huge seven month Thy Kingdom Come, followed by a huge six month RIP, followed by a huge 9 month New Krypton all with dozens of tie-ins that have zero to no impact on the main storyline.

DC could have a huge event every six months if they wanted to, power levels are not an issue at all.

And if you're calling Countdown an event then I guess 52 was also one (in reality, neither of them was).

I wouldn't call Death of the New Gods an event either, it was just a limited series.

And I'm sorry, but after 7 trades of New Avengers I came to realize that I just don't care anymore myself.

Most of the stuff in that book is completely forgettable.

Also, you're making unfair comparisons.

Sure, the Avengers and the JLA are the leading teams of their respective companies but you're also comparing Marvel's most prolific writer and architect of Secret Invasion to Dwayne McDuffie just to make a point.

Marvel needs to stop this event-driven nonsense.

They just do it because they know people are stupid and will buy all the tie-ins regardless of quality.

Stop kidding yourself.

Blackest Night is going to be awesome.

[MournfulWoods]

Events can be annoying. it seems like there's been events after events since I started reading marvel. I never felt like the tie ins were necessary and therefore it never has been an issue to read or not this or that other serie to understand the main event. I think the whole New Avengers serie is really good. I like the characters. Dc though, I could never get into them. I don't feel like Dark reign is such an event. Is there going to be a Dark Reign serie ? or is it more like the new status quo ?

[Eldo]

If DC were Marvel, the Sinestro Corps War would've been an 8 month event, followed by a huge seven month Thy Kingdom Come, followed by a huge six month RIP, followed by a huge 9 month New Krypton all with dozens of tie-ins that have zero to no impact on the main storyline.

DC could have a huge event every six months if they wanted to, power levels are not an issue at all.

Well, Final Crisis has been a huge 9 month event... just kidding. That was a bit of a low blow. But yeah, I get what you're saying. All of the above mentioned storylines happened concurrently, and not led up from one to another. But these events has not changed or warped the entirety of and throughout the DC universe in any way (even though they say that they have in their own books, but no other titles has reflected that), so it's not a major event comparable to Final Crisis or Secret Invasion, where status quo has been changed.

Didn't people moan when DC announced another Crisis title? 'Oh no, not another Crisis title! It hasn't even been 2 years since the last crisis!' they screamed. Personally, I enjoyed Identity Crisis and hoped they made more issues like that, but I guess the more vocal fans lauded it. I'm not quite sure if DC could make an event like, say, Secret Invasion. JLA repel alien invasions all the time. And World War Hulk? Superman and Wonder Woman and half a dozen DC characters can take him down together. Why do you think they have Sentry, the Marvel Superman, fight him in the last issue? DC events tend to be galactic in nature, or time and continuity bending events. Multiverse stories that DC has released has not tested well with fans, probably because they weren't characters that we know and love, but just warped ones so what happens to them are not important.

And if you're calling Countdown an event then I guess 52 was also one (in reality, neither of them was).

I wouldn't call Death of the New Gods an event either, it was just a limited series.

Well, One Year Later was sort of an event (but mainly an attempted and failed change in status quo), in a way, that failed. 52 was meant to fill the gap between what happened from Infinite Crisis to One Year Later, which makes it sorta related to an event. It just branched on and became something else on its own (which was great). And Countdown was sort of an event and a lead-in to Final Crisis, Countdown had half a dozen tie-ins, including from other books such as Teen Titans and Superman. Also, DC pretty much whacked the Countdown label on every comic book they released. Death of the New Gods technically wasn't an event, but a lead in to Final Crisis where the New Gods are dead and Darkseid and his cronies have new bodies. A means to an end. Since we were talking about tie ins and lead ins and all, I just mentioned the above names.

Also, you're making unfair comparisons.

Sure, the Avengers and the JLA are the leading teams of their respective companies but you're also comparing Marvel's most prolific writer and architect of Secret Invasion to Dwayne McDuffie just to make a point.

Come on, Dwayne McDuffie is pretty famous himself. He's the guy who wrote all those JLU episodes, made the Milestone characters and is responsible for half a dozen cartoons. He's not exactly a lightweight. I made the comparison because as you mentioned, they're the leading teams of the companies. I could have used Avengers:Initiative instead though with Slott, I guess. Initiative still had better stories than JLA and more consequential ones to the Marvel Universe.

Marvel needs to stop this event-driven nonsense.

They just do it because they know people are stupid and will buy all the tie-ins regardless of quality.

And that's what I've been saying. People buy event driven stories because they want to see characters respond to it. These characters contribute directly to the Marvel Universe. However, I would agree with you to some extent that people buy it regardless of quality, but some of the stories I've read has been highly entertaining, so not all event driven stories are completely crap. Marvel understands the minds of the consumers which is why they're the better businessmen. I haven't outright said that 'event driven stories are the best kind of stories' nor did I say they were quality. But you have to admit, they drum up interest. As long as Marvel makes money from event driven stories, they won't stop at all. Books like Frontline (either CW or SI) sucked but people still buy it because they believe it contributes to the story. Tie ins get money, Marvel knows it, DC knows it. DC is guilty for having a million tie ins themselves.

Stop kidding yourself.

Blackest Night is going to be awesome.

Yeah, I think it will be awesome.

Now, I don't want to make it sound like I'm all for Marvel and bashing DC. But I have to fault DC for Countdown and Amazon Attacks, because those two has been the worst comics produced by DC and has made in a long time. I'm the type of person who just enjoys reading comics to be entertained so I don't really have expectations for comics to be Watchmen quality. Which is why despite the flaws in Secret Invasion and RIP, I enjoyed them thoroughly. But with Countdown and Amazon Attacks, it's one of the first comics I thought were complete waste of time. Marvel hasn't made any comics as bad as Countdown and Amazon Attacks (that I read so far), so that's why I'm leaning towards Marvel.

Events can be annoying. it seems like there's been events after events since I started reading marvel. I never felt like the tie ins were necessary and therefore it never has been an issue to read or not this or that other serie to understand the main event. I think the whole New Avengers serie is really good. I like the characters. Dc though, I could never get into them. I don't feel like Dark reign is such an event. Is there going to be a Dark Reign serie ? or is it more like the new status quo ?

Well, Dark Reign is a status quo and a mini series or one shot. We'll see how it goes though, I think it would be entertaining. Quality? Probably not really. But entertaining? Yep.

[Femto]

I got the Secret Invasion trade and I thought it was actually pretty good.

I think it reads better in one sitting though.

I don't know if I could've stomached an issue a month with it because it doesn't seem like a lot happens in every issue.

The story could've been told in like 4 issues.

On a side note, I just love Leinil Yu's artwork.

[Eldo]

The story could've been told in like 4 issues.

On a side note, I just love Leinil Yu's artwork.

Actually, it could have been done in two double sized issues. I kid.

But yeah, strip out the action and it could have been compressed quite a lot. Barring any logic and plotholes, it's an entertaining ride. But it was also a bit of a disappointment, because it didn't properly reveal how Reed contributed to the masking technology (only saying that he did it), having a final showdown all at one spot seemed illogical for the skrulls, who seemed to be having the upper hand (which was explained as 'this too was written'...what?) I expected big things for Secret Invasion, but by the time issue three came out, my expectations lowered and enjoyed it for what it was.

[Femto]

I shouldn't have said that Secret Invasion was good, I should've said it was enjoyable.

I agree with you on the lack explanation of certain things.

Richards' gun that turns Skrulls back into Skrulls was totally a cop out and a terrible plot device.

Stiil, I didn't regret my purchase like I thought I would.

I also read Justice because the final trade came out and I enjoyed the whole thing a great deal.

It feels like everybody is fucked in the first trade but, unfortunately, over the course of the second and third trades some of tension disappears and the threat level diminishes.

I did like the spin on Aquaman and how he can regenerate stuff because he's amphibian.

The series needed more Barry Allen.

Good amount of Hal Jordan though.

[Eldo]

I shouldn't have said that Secret Invasion was good, I should've said it was enjoyable.

I agree with you on the lack explanation of certain things.

Richards' gun that turns Skrulls back into Skrulls was totally a cop out and a terrible plot device.

I was just thinking, why don't Richards make a gun that turns Skrulls into cows? It's not like he hasn't done it before. The guy can do anything, right?

I also read Justice because the final trade came out and I enjoyed the whole thing a great deal.

I've only read the first issue and it's not my cup of tea. I do think anyone who likes the Golden Age stuff would definitely like this though. Aquaman, to me, has always been a lame character. But he was pretty damned well written in the Morrison/Kelly JLA though. Still, not my type of superhero.

[Femto]

Justice is set in the Silver Age.

Speaking of the Golden Age though, I ordered the first trade of the JSA series that came before the current one.

Just trying to find more Black Adam stuff to read.

[Eldo]

Oh right, got my eras mixed up. But the oldie ones I'm not too interested in. Speaking of Black Adam, his mini series is damned cool. His appearances in Countdown, however...

[Femto]

Speaking of Black Adam, his mini series is damned cool.

The Dark Age?

I read it recently and I thought it was pretty damn good.

The only problem is that it felt like it was only the midpoint of a larger story for the character (52 would be the starting point, I'd guess).

It doesn't really stand on its own.

I'm keeping my eye on Tomasi though.

The Dark Age and his work on Green Lantern Corps has been quite enjoyable.

Great artwork in The Dark Age as well.

[Eldo]

The only problem is that it felt like it was only the midpoint of a larger story for the character (52 would be the starting point, I'd guess).

That's probably what it was intended for, methinks. I think it was supposed to be continued for Countdown (since it was released at around the same time, and Countdown already featured the return of Black Adam but with no explanation as to how his powers returned) so it was probably editorial decision for that. Tomasi has been a very consistent and entertaining writer. His work on Nightwing has been one of the best runs I've read. Nobody knew what to do with him, but when Tomasi came on board, he made Nightwing stand out. A very solid writer. I think Manhke drew Dark Age, and he has been one of the best artists I've seen in a long time, although his female characters seem a little anorexic. Their work on Requiem was simply superb.

[Femto]

[spoiler]I can't believe they killed Batman. I really thought from the R.I.P. interviews and shit that Bruce Wayne would be incapacitated in some shape or form, not killed off.

[/spoiler]

The part with the Flashes in Final Crisis #6 had me smiling with glee.

Fucking awesome.

[Eldo]

I really enjoyed Final Crisis 6. I'm going to throw away my criticisms for a moment (like having to read all the tie-ins to know what the hell is going on, namely Beyond and Last Rites otherwise things happen abruptly) and say that I really enjoyed the issue. I'm thinking of changing my avatar to a Darkseid one. Would that be wrong?

But I'd rather have the fate of Batman be in RIP, though, after all, RIP was promised to change Batman, but seriously did nothing.

[Femto]

Final Crisis #6 is definitely one of the better issues so far along with #2.

I do feel like the series should've been 12 issues as opposed to 7 just so Morrison could flesh out some of the stuff that he was forced to write as tie-ins (most of which I still didn't read).

Then again, it probably would've gotten delayed until 2010 or so.

I was reading stuff and it seems like Batman may not be dead after all.

Morrison introduced the concept of Darkseid's Omega Sanction doing more than just killing the individual in his Mister Miracle series (I think). Apparently, one of the possible effects they have is that whoever gets hit by them gets sent to a series of successively worse alternate lives, hence Darkseid's statement of "death that is life" and Morrison repeatedly saying that he's looking to put his characters through a fate worse than death.

That still doesn't explain Batman's corpse at the end though but I'm sure Bruce Wayne will be back eventually.

The last few pages with Superman being pissed off has been one of the major highlights of the book so far.

Really looking forward to seeing the climax of the series.

[Eldo]

Morrison introduced the concept of Darkseid's Omega Sanction doing more than just killing the individual in his Mister Miracle series (I think). Apparently, one of the possible effects they have is that whoever gets hit by them gets sent to a series of successively worse alternate lives, hence Darkseid's statement of "death that is life" and Morrison repeatedly saying that he's looking to put his characters through a fate worse than death.

Yeah, that's definitely possible. I've also read on Newarama forums that Sonny Sumo was sent to the past by Darkseid with the same maneuver. That's probably why he mentioned that part when talking to Mr. Miracle.

Also, I can't find an explanation for Batman's body. Unless he's really dead. You could argue that the Omega Sanction changed when Darkseid got a new body. While it was quite cool to watch him get shot, I was expecting a huge fight (mainly because of the buildup), but I guess that's the only thing I was a bit disappointed about.

[Starnum]

I got a copy of Watchmen, reading it now. Better late than never, right? XD

[halfnhalf]

I got a copy of Watchmen, reading it now. Better late than never, right? XD

you sir are too late. Everyone has those books that they read over and over and over again. Mine is Catch 22 and Watchmen. When im bored i just have to open them up.

[Femto]

Geoff Johns just undid one of DC's biggest editorial mistakes in the past few years.
[spoiler]Bart Allen is back from the dead.

Woo-hoo![/spoiler]

[Eldo]

And as a kid, no less.

What amazes me is that editorial did that. Allow him to rise up and then shit all over him. I say there was a lot of potential in the character, but I can't be sure if this was all planned or not. It seems pretty shitty doing that though.

Also, the last Final Crisis issue gave me a 'what the fuck' moment because I had no idea what the hell was going on. Same with Superman Beyond. Really, what is going on?