Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

[Buuhan1]

Well, someone made a post on the forum I live on and thought I should post it here.

http://apforums.net/showpost.php?p=634887&postcount=559

i went to the kelvingrove museum in glasgow last week. so what?

a pic:

[spoiler][/spoiler]
"yeah... so what?

that:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

fun, eh?

anyway, my favorite, this helmet is... amazing!

[spoiler][/spoiler]

did miura come here before or what???

sorry for the shitty photographer i am, but taking pics in a museum is not exactly allowed...

[/quote]

[Cloudian]

i know this is more of a similarity than symbolism but who knows where the idea came from

the wolf personification of gutts' revenge talks a lot like ichigo's inner hollow from bleach

at first they both try to take over the person and attack anyone indiscriminately

and once they both master that power the wolf and the hollow both say that they are going to catch them while they are offguard and take over again.

i just thought that was neat (spent like an hour to find something actually cool but....i dunno im not a history buff and i dislike research but i guess this was ok for a first post )

edit: spelling, offguard was wrong -.-

[Starnum]

Are you fuckin nuts man? Regardless of the fact that Berserk came long before Bleach, I still doubt Miura would be borrowing shit from Bleach. Meh, who knows, but that would be some crazy shit if you ask me. I think it's mainly coincidence. I mean, I like Bleach too, but it just seems out of character for Miura to be copying off of Bleach. *shrugs*

[Cloudian]

i never said miura took stuff from bleach i just said it was a similarity

the part in question in bleach just happened i suppose about a month ago (in the anime, its been a while for the manga) but regardless gutts' wolf side has been around long before that

if anything the creator of bleach took miuras idea and ran with it =P

[Eldo]

I think your comparisons were a bit forced. You're trying to fit a pattern in two different things.

I could say that Berserk right now is like Wizard of Oz, where the Elven King is the Wizard and the Guts party are Dorothy and friends. Casca's trying to find her mind, Farnese is trying to find courage, and Guts trying to find a heart.

[Aetherfukz]

Cowardly Lion: All right, I'll go in there for Dorothy. Wicked Witch or no Wicked Witch, guards or no guards, I'll tear them apart. I may not come out alive, but I'm going in there. There's only one thing I want you fellows to do.

Guts: All right, I'll got in there for Caska. Demon or no Demon, guards or no guards, I'll tear them apart. I may not come out alive, but I'm going in there. There's only one thing I want you fellows to do.

It's proven!

[Cloudian]

trying to force something?

if i was trying to do that i would have compared it to pokemon or something

all i did was post the thing that came to my mind while i was reading this, only i wanted to do it proper like psi and a few others, but it was quite hard to find anything at all that wasent mentioned

The one thing that i found out that i wasent sure was in here (i "think" i read it in a post) is that behelit means satan in some eastern language.

but like i said, i thought i had read that in here already so i just went with my original similarity lol

[Rolos]

behelit means satan in some eastern language.

I think its syrian, and its not Satan, its demon. Berith ( the syrian name ) is merely a duke of hell, not the king of hell himself ( lucifer, satan, the devil, etc.. )

Anyway, its in the FAQ.

This thread used to have a very high intelectual level, lets not drag it down to the dirt ( a.k.a stupid theory thread )

Pd: I always thought the country of Ys could be based on Holland, or may be Portugal. If you think about it, Holland was famous for its maritimal force and Portugal was the first country to take on the discovery quest as a serious enterprise. Henry "the sailor", one of the most famous portuguese kings, has lots of points in common with Roderick, like their lust for adventure and their will to go where no one else ever had. Just a thought though.

[Restricted18]

i'd just like to expand on the christ link that others have brought up before...
i think guts and griffith are both (opposing) combinations of christ/antichrist figures.
griffith fights for the divine or the supernatural, his is the struggle of the gods, the struggle of heaven; he's a god incarnated on the earth, and has been 'raised to heaven' (the godhand) and 'reborn on the earth' (to fulfil his dream of claiming the throne of midland); he has the support of the christian-esque religion (does this have a specific name in berserk?) and the holy see and is thought of as the saviour of mankind - basically, he's christ. but at the same time, he's also the anti-christ, because his existence is a deception because he brings destruction (and i don't remember this myself, but from reading the threads, the different layers of existence are merging, a dark age of mankind) - which is what guts is going to.. prevent, or reverse, or, he'll be the saviour.
guts is closer to the anti-christ - a dark personality, rage and desire driving him, he brings destruction and ill fortune to those around him, he is godless and his purpose is to destroy the 'divine' - but at the same time his desire and destiny seems to be to destroy griffith, and save mankind - based on the vatican prophecy and the skullknight-flora prophecy (a true anti-hero). guts fights for mankind, or rather fights for a man, himself. his is the struggle of men, the struggle of the earth.
basically griffith is christ-for-gods and anti-christ-to-men while guts is the christ-for-men and anti-christ-to-gods, but to the greater part of humanity griffith is (deceptively) -the- christ figure, the promised white hawk.
berserk is the struggle of a man against gods, the struggle of a man against his own fate - the struggle between heaven and earth.

[The Prince]

I think your comparisons were a bit forced. You're trying to fit a pattern in two different things.

I could say that Berserk right now is like Wizard of Oz, where the Elven King is the Wizard and the Guts party are Dorothy and friends. Casca's trying to find her mind, Farnese is trying to find courage, and Guts trying to find a heart.

Puck = The untold character trying to find a brain.
Magnifico = Cojones

[The Herald]

I'm sure you know, but I've always thought of Ys being Sicily. Not because of historical similarities, but because of how much balls Roderick has. Plus he's hairy (only main character in Berserk with facial hair) and has black hair, he's a regular Al Pacino . I can just imagine him with the accent. By that logic I've also thought of Vritannis as Rome because of it's place on the water, it's heat, its wealth, and it's huge link to the Papacy. Though Berserk is in a fantasy place it's really closely tied to the real world.

Another thing I thought of was in the beginning Puck for Guts was kind of like Jiminy Cricket for Pinnocio. He still is I think, but is allowed to goof off because Guts is more content and happy than he was before.

[Rolos]

I'm sure you know, but I've always thought of Ys being Sicily. Not because of historical similarities, but because of how much balls Roderick has. Plus he's hairy (only main character in Berserk with facial hair) and has black hair, he's a regular Al Pacino . I can just imagine him with the accent. By that logic I've also thought of Vritannis as Rome because of it's place on the water, it's heat, its wealth, and it's huge link to the Papacy. Though Berserk is in a fantasy place it's really closely tied to the real world.

I have to disagree on that. If you think about it, Vritannis its not really a holy city (like the one in which Serpico and Farneze grew up) but merely a merchant city seized by the Vatican because it was a good place where they could gather up their forces.
Its mentioned on the manga, let me see if i can find it......here it is !
Right to left.



My point is that Vritannis is probably the Berserk world equivalent of an Italian merchant city (like Florence or Venice), not Rome itself.

And about Ys being Sicily......at least for me that just doesn't.....fit. Conceded, Roderick is a badass and all that, but that doesn't mean he has to be involved with the mafia.
Take a look of this:
right to left



I don't know, if you think about it, here Ys is mentioned as a marquessate, and Holland was also just a province of Spain (Portugal too), until both countries reached independence in some point of their history. Both countries were originally very closed to the exterior world, but in the end both turned out to be the greatest merchant countries of the world, thanks to the incredible number of geographical discoveries they made.
It is also mentioned that Ys northern border is in contact with one of the great oceans, which would point towards Holland. But afterwards it is stated that Ys is an island, so to hell with that theory.
Geographical references cant be used to back up theories about berserk.

[The Herald]

What Miura needs to do is to make a region map. Though, I agree with you, Ys could just as easily be Portugal or the Netherlands. But we're all pretty sure that Midland is France and Chuder is England, that's pretty obvious with their names and the whole hundred years war thing . Though, if this were parallel to history, would the Kushan invasion be similar to that of the muslim conflicts in Spain after the crusades?

[hbi2k]

Not sure if this is really the right place for this, but it didn't seem to fit anywhere else....

I've been reading up on Buddhism, and I'm noticing some similarities between certain Buddhist views on the interconnected nature of humanity and reality with the Abyss / Hell / collective unconscious. Given that Miura loves to make evil appear good and good appear evil (think the Apostles' association with Christian imagery, the God Hand being referred to as angels, etc.), I'm kind of wondering if Berserk's "hell" is as bad as it seems. In Buddhism, individuality is an illusion: all things interpenetrate one another and are part of the same being. There's nothing "good" or "bad" about this: it's simply the way things are, and part of the path to enlightenment is to recognize this (and reduce one's attachment to what seem to be self-contained, independent things and people but are in reality impermanent manifestations of an underlying continuous being).

In the Slug Count arc, Griffemto identifies the swirl of souls as "hell" and used a lot of "dark" and "evil" imagery in describing it, telling the Count that "before long, you won't even be able to preserve any final remnants of your individual self," and "like a drop of water, you'll simply dissolve" into the ocean of souls. Strip away the negative language, though, and this sounds almost like the GOAL of Buddhism: letting go of the illusion of individuality and recognizing that we are all part of the same vast being. It's also notable that the Idea of Evil never actual identifies the swirl of souls as "hell," but merely notes that "some have called it that."

It might be that, in the end, the only way for Guts and his friends to win is to surrender: to go to "hell" and find out that it's not so bad after all. If that's the case, then despite all his great power, Griffith might turn out to have been a fool all along, for clinging to his individuality and attachment to his worldly dreams (with all the suffering that, according to a Buddhist philosophy, such attachment and delusion necessarily bring).

Just my thoughts of the moment.

[Death&Rebirth]

I don't know if Miura is religious or not, but Buddhism is a important part of japanese culture.
Even if not directly, it's a big possibility that Buddhism can be influencing some aspects of the story.

[The Herald]

I'm sure it is. After reading these new posts, I've come to think maybe Miura is rebelling against Buddhism. If you think about it, it is very suffocating. I hate the idea of not being different from another person, or a tree in fact. Christianity allows you to feel and believe you are independent and important, while Buddhism strips away all of that. Christianity in its essence mind you, none of that Catholicism bullshit. It's nice to feel like everything is connected, but not the same, if you get what I mean. That's one of the things that Christianity is like, in essence. I have to put strong emphasis on that. To me, all throughout reading Berserk, it feels like this good essence is trying to come out but is being pushed down by both this Buddhist vision of the world where everything is connected and the Catholic ideal where the whole world is in heirarchy.

[Death&Rebirth]

I'm sure it is. After reading these new posts, I've come to think maybe Miura is rebelling against Buddhism.

Oh brother. You must have misread something.

If you think about it, it is very suffocating. I hate the idea of not being different from another person, or a tree in fact. Christianity allows you to feel and believe you are independent and important, while Buddhism strips away all of that.

I don't know were did you get that idea since one of the cannon thoughts of Buddhism is soul independence (hence, Reincarnation) while in Christianity it's soul ascension to the realm of god/heaven. Oh and there is hierarchy in Christianity.

To me, all throughout reading Berserk, it feels like this good essence is trying to come out but is being pushed down by both this Buddhist vision of the world where everything is connected and the Catholic ideal where the whole world is in heirarchy.

Doesn't seem much as a religious allegory. Berserk always stroke to me as a story about Humanity fighting against destiny.

[The Prince]

I don't know were did you get that idea since one of the cannon thoughts of Buddhism is soul independence (hence, Reincarnation) while in Christianity it's soul ascension to the realm of god/heaven. Oh and there is hierarchy in Christianity.

To me, all throughout reading Berserk, it feels like this good essence is trying to come out but is being pushed down by both this Buddhist vision of the world where everything is connected and the Catholic ideal where the whole world is in heirarchy.

Doesn't seem much as a religious allegory. Berserk always stroke to me as a story about Humanity fighting against destiny.

-There is hierarchy in Buddhism as well, likely from its Hindu roots.
Where Karma dictates whether you will improve your station (or diminish) in one's next life upon what form they are to be reincarnated as (Cockroach vs. Monk).

Also, I always thought in Buddhism when a soul reaches a state of Nirvana upon death, their soul becomes one with the "universe" (can't recall the actual term) and ceases to exist. In a way, Berserk's version of hell, shares a similar concept of where one's soul gets taken up and becomes one with the Idea....or something like that.

(EDIT: Sorry, Hadn't read hbi2k's comments before posting, but they pretty much parallel mine....making my post seem rather redundant.)


-In regards to Miura's depiction of organized religion, Christianity is definitely the red-headed step-child of the Berserk universe.....Hence the Retribution Arc.

"If you meet God. Tell him to leave me 'the fuck' (depending on the translation) alone......!"

I mean who talks to God that way??????

[The Prince]

I don't know, if you think about it, here Ys is mentioned as a marquessate, and Holland was also just a province of Spain (Portugal too), until both countries reached independence in some point of their history. Both countries were originally very closed to the exterior world, but in the end both turned out to be the greatest merchant countries of the world, thanks to the incredible number of geographical discoveries they made.
It is also mentioned that Ys northern border is in contact with one of the great oceans, which would point towards Holland. But afterwards it is stated that Ys is an island, so to hell with that theory.
Geographical references cant be used to back up theories about berserk.

In regards to Vritannis, I was a little confused of its proximity to the Vatican. For some reason I thought it was referred to somewhere as the Holy City, but maybe that was wrong. But based on everything else, it seems to be completely separate (geographically) from where the Vatican would be. Your Venice/Rome analogy would be something I could buy into.

I was also under the impression that Y's was north of Vritannis. But if I were to assume the geography paralleled Europe, I'd assume it would be more towards a Portugal or Spain, as opposed to the Netherlands. Bordering the Sea to the North, could apply to these locations as well.

Great post BTW......!!!

[Death&Rebirth]

-There is hierarchy in Buddhism as well, likely from its Hindu roots.
Where Karma dictates whether you will improve your station (or diminish) in one's next life upon what form they are to be reincarnated as (Cockroach vs. Monk).

Never said that there wasn't one. Everything responds to an hierarchy, even our organic systems. As well karma isn't much different in essence from the sin, although karma seems a more balanced concept (since it means action or deed, independent of it's value) comparing with "sin". I don't know much about the karma dictating your next life. i always had the notion that karma dictates your everyday life, simillar to what we see in the awesome "My name is Earl".

Also, I always thought in Buddhism when a soul reaches a state of Nirvana upon death, their soul becomes one with the "universe" (can't recall the actual term) and ceases to exist. In a way, Berserk's version of hell, shares a similar concept of where one's soul gets taken up and becomes one with the Idea....or something like that.

You can achieve nirvana while being alive. Nirvana it's a state of mind free of carving (in a very resumed way). I know that it has to do with 4 noble truths and the Noble Eightfold way or something. Berserk hell is something different from Idea, at least that's i think of. Specially with volume 3 where the count wish gets denied and the remaining of him is sucked in to Hell. Idea isn't neither heaven or hell, if we want to reduce it to western concepts. It's above it.

-In regards to Miura's depiction of organized religion, Christianity is definitely the red-headed step-child of the Berserk universe.....Hence the Retribution Arc.

If we are considering one of the religious systems inside plot, yes, there is a lot of references and similarities. But isn't much more the opposite of that statement?

I don't know, if you think about it, here Ys is mentioned as a marquessate, and Holland was also just a province of Spain (Portugal too), until both countries reached independence in some point of their history.

I think you're making confusion with House of Habsburg, which reign over Spain almost 2 centuries (1500 and something to 1700) and in Portugal during 1580 to 1640 (approx). Portugal was already independent before that (during that time we lose truly independence, although in the paper Portugal still was). Holland case, in a nut shell:

From wikipedia
...
In 1432 Holland became part of the Burgundian Netherlands and since 1477 of the Habsburg Seventeen Provinces. In the 16th century the region became densely urbanised, with the majority of the population living in cities. Within the Burgundian Netherlands, it was the dominant province in the north; the political influence of Holland largely determined the extent of Burgundian dominion in that area.

In the Dutch Rebellion against the Habsburgs during the Eighty Years' War, the naval forces of the rebels, the Watergeuzen, established their first permanent base in 1572 in the Hollandic city of Brill. This way Holland, now a sovereign state as part of a larger Dutch confederation, became the centre of the rebellion and as a result the cultural, political and economic centre of the United Provinces, in the 17th century, the Dutch Golden Age, the wealthiest nation in the world.

If anything, any dutch can verify this.

[The Herald]

This is a bit off topic, but considering zodiacs and the ideas behind them, which character types do you think the Berserk characters fall into? I think Guts is a dragon. Not to sure with western/ Greek astrology though.

[Death&Rebirth]

Hm...
Gutts seems Dog to me in chinese astrology. In western astrology, I'd say something with horns like Bull, Capricorn, etc.
Griffith looks to me much more Dragon/Scorpion...
Anyway i now little about it, although i have some books about it.

[RanShi]

I'll try linking stuff.

Griffith is a Dragon/Scorpio. No doubts. Pride, nobility, passion, purpose and determination. Also a need for admiration.

Griffith's moon sign is Capricorn. http://www.lunarliving.org/moon/capric.shtml
He can still control these feelings in a very good manner.

We're talking Griffith before the eclipse.

Gattsu is much harder, considering his upbringing and life..
He's definetely a Leo, with Taurus as a moon sign. An honest and stubborn person, who gets things done without compromising. The year, I must say Dog.

Caska is such a Cancer/Bull.

And then, the most obvious ones:

Corkus is a Snake/Virgo.

Judeau is a Snake/Gemini.

[The Herald]

Wow, I am Griffith, all of the signs you've said are the ones I have . I don't know much about astrology, but I know a lot about astronomy, and that isn't super useful ...

I always thought of Serpico as a horse or a ram. And Isidro is obviously a monkey, but he's none to bright, so in that sense he's a bull.

[RanShi]

Yeah, I think you're pretty correct. Serpico is more of a horse, being adventurous, bright and serious but still kinda...boring..

Isidro might be a Monkey/Taurus

And I'm Judeau =) I've been able to completely relate to his behavior, always.