Religion. The Good, The Bad, the Ugly

[Oro]

if you read history at the end of world war II, one nation had unprecidented power. one nation in the world had not suffered any damage to its military complex. that nation also had the only atomic bomb. that nation was the united states.

Maybe cuz they enter the war when nazi's got weeker and as far as A-bomb goes its not like american scientists made it,it was stolen from germans and tested on Japan.

as far as free elections go, el salvador had free elections despit terrorism in that country. since 2001, afghanistan and iraq and free elections. why can't the syrians or the iranians or the sudanese risk giving free elections? because the tyrants in those countries would be kicked out of power.

Free elections in afghanistan and iraq,OMG! thats really funny,now how is it free elections when you are voting for ppl that are picked by US and not choosen by common ppl.

[ucrzymofo87]

Maybe cuz they enter the war when nazi's got weeker and as far as A-bomb goes its not like american scientists made it,it was stolen from germans and tested on Japan.

no proof or evidence of that claim

Free elections in afghanistan and iraq,OMG! thats really funny,now how is it free elections when you are voting for ppl that are picked by US and not choosen by common ppl.

no proof or evidence of that claim. really, your very obstinate

[Shaka Zulu]

i responded with the truth, and if that upsets you then i am sorry

Hahahah

If I'm lying,check my post and tell me where I'm lying.

And I wouldnt rule out you telling the truth or not But you dont refute and respond to other,by saying something completely different,and that has not much to do with what you qouted.Just becuase you said it was the truth(even it is),it doesnt make your little warped of way of debating any less of a joke

[ucrzymofo87]

that was a reply to the idea that the USA was just as bad as the soviet union. its called tactics woven with followup

[Oro]

Maybe cuz they enter the war when nazi's got weeker and as far as A-bomb goes its not like american scientists made it,it was stolen from germans and tested on Japan.

no proof or evidence of that claim

Yup no evidence, just speculation just like Saddam Hussein.

Free elections in afghanistan and iraq,OMG! thats really funny,now how is it free elections when you are voting for ppl that are picked by US and not choosen by common ppl.

no proof or evidence of that claim. really, your very obstinate

Is ppl on iraqi goverment local the represents the ppl...no,where did your democracy go now?

[Shaka Zulu]

I call it "avoiding what someone says with alot of bullshit and repeating yourself so you can avoid others points even more",whaddya about think the name for it?

And the reason you supposedly avoided to respond to what I said,is even funnier.Because you just proved you didnt read what I said.Becuase this is what I said,about Sovjey being as bad as the US then(never said it),was I saying the US is as bad as the sovjets here?Really?You have problem understanding simple sentences,or you just want to missunderstand?:

Yeah,like I was referring to just after the war,or even implied that US was as bad as Sovjet in any way,as they(the Sovjets) were back then.

Or that I said in the post before that one,that it didnt mean the US was good,when they are also raping the world,just because the Sovjets were worse.

So whats your reason for refusing to address what I said now? I'm eager to find out.Repeating your "truth" is not good enough,just so you know.

[ucrzymofo87]

you're going in circles, you haven't said anything with evidence to back up what you say

[Buzkashi]

Free elections in afghanistan and iraq,OMG! thats really funny,now how is it free elections when you are voting for ppl that are picked by US and not choosen by common ppl.

no proof or evidence of that claim. really, your very obstinate[/quote]

Umm i can back that up. A couple of my uncles are there and a grip of my cousins are there.

[Skullkracker]

now what the fuck are you guys discussing here?
am I the only person here sickened by the "who killed more over history" jamboree?

who of you can judge that huh? and which one of you can give a neutral and omnipotent comment on some of the present and past events mentioned?

when it comes to war, the violance has nothing to do with religion anymore

the times of increasing influence for religious reasons is gone, people, GONE
how can anyone think that when it's all about politics and wealth? religion is hardly a factor in these decisions

just one ore thing, I forgot how the Sovjet Union got into the soup, but I know a few things:
- it had nothing to do with religion, except that they banned it all and no telling how many got killed in gulags
- it annexed miserable Southern-European countriers and those got fucked up real bad
trust me, you wouldn't want to live in hardcore communism

[ucrzymofo87]

right on the money, Skullkracker

[Skullkracker]

I have a feeling Killfile is about to come up with a bigass post for all our problems.

can't wait

[Killfile]

Maybe cuz they enter the war when nazi's got weeker and as far as A-bomb goes its not like American scientists made it,it was stolen from Germans and tested on Japan.

no proof or evidence of that claim

Robert J. Oppenheimer, widely regarded as the father of the Atomic Bomb was born in New York in 1904. His parents were German, but for the purposes of this argument we'll call him an American (he was a citizen after all).

Leslie Richard Groves, the chief pentagon contact on the Manhattan project was born in Albany New York in the mid 1890s. That makes him an American too.

That said, most of the theoretical work on nuclear fission was done by Europeans (mostly Hungarian Jews) before the war broke out. Enrico Fermi, born in Rome, is often credited with the most important work on fission in its early days. He's not a German. He was forced to flee Europe as his wife was Jewish.

Edward Teller, a Hungarian Jew, contributed greatly to the Manhattan project, though his real work was in fusion, not fission. Teller is considered the father of the Hydrogen Bomb.

Otto Robert Frisch, an Austrian, worked with Rudolf Peierls (a German! We found one!) in the UK to develop a theoretical model for a fission ignition mechanism. This work contributed greatly to the Manhattan Project, though neither of the men worked on it.

Finally, Earnest Lawarence, born in South Dakota, developed a method for separating U235 from U238, making a uranium bomb possible.

Obviously then, you refer to Albert Einstein, who, while German, never worked on the Manhattan Project and suggested several times that the project be abandoned (though it was a letter from him that prompted Roosevelt to begin the program in the first place).

Sorry Nazgul, you loose that point. Very few Germans did any work on the Manhattan Project. Those whose work was used weren't part of the project.

Oh - and don't tell me Austrians are Germans. Someone else made that argument once. Funny toothbrush mustache. Had a problem with Jews, or so I hear.

Free elections in Afghanistan and Iraq,OMG! that's really funny,now how is it free elections when you are voting for ppl that are picked by US and not chosen by common ppl.

no proof or evidence of that claim. really, your very obstinate

Well the US did put in power the government that oversaw the election in the first place. That does tend to put a spin on things. The US has been intervening in the election process, particularly in the constitutional process to attempt to expedite matters - there's no telling what undue influence that could have.

That said, the members of the provisional government (the only ones that were really hand picked by the US) that ran in the elections were soundly defeated. This doesn't lend credibility to Nazgul's argument.

The jury is still out of this one. Frankly I think a better criticism is that not once in all of human history has democracy been artificially introduced to a people and not resulted in bloodshed, civil war, and genocide.

Spreading the gospel of democracy sounds a great deal like the "white man's burden" of the 1700s-1900s. We all know where that ended up. Maybe its time for the west to just butt out and let the rest of the world find it's own path. Why is our way so much better anyhow?

[Skullkracker]

a very nice post as I expected

just to add something:
the way I see it the world ought to find a common path
there are more and more global issues

btw:
anyone seen Team America?
I rofl

[LordMune]

i would like you to understand that I WAS NOT ALIVE in that time.

Hey, I'm a Neo-nazi. What, Hitler? No dude, he's long dead. You can't associate me with him, I just happen to practically worship his teachings. There is no connection between us.

[Skullkracker]

a true Christian follows the teachings of Jesus Christ

any problem with him?

[LordMune]

a true Christian follows the teachings of Jesus Christ

any problem with him?

No, that is exactly my point.

[Killfile]

I was gonna append this with an edit, but the conversation moved on while I was typing it. Not so much of a double post now!

Augh! I didn't see the argument about the Soviets, the US, the Nazis, the Various Sundry Evil Things (tm) done in the name of Religion, etc. Yikes. Ok... a brief discourse

First - Both the Soviets and the US did down right Evil (tm) things during the Cold War. We Americans tend to gloss these things over, but it's really just a matter of scale and priorities.

Lets just examine stuff we did to other countries, first. The Soviets put most of Eastern Europe under their thumb, instituted what passed for Bolshevik Communism, squelched public opinion, and let the place go to pot. They exploited the fears of the poor and downtrodden throughout Asia and in parts of South America, giving people false hope in a system that they knew didn't work.

The US spent billions rebuilding Europe (ok, that was nice) because it had the money to do so. Paying off Europe was an easy way to keep a lot of those countries from siding with the Soviets, who were the only ones who gave a shit about them when the Nazis rolled through. In the mean time, the US set up puppet governments throughout the world, including Japan, most of South America, parts of South East Asia, and elsewhere to "contain communism." Well paid by the rising power of corporate interests, we bought and sold the lives and livelihoods of untold millions, cashing in their cultures and security for bigger profits and cheaper goods at home. While the Soviets were shooting East Germans in the back of the head, we were starving the citizens of India to death and busily destroying any hope Mexico or most of Central America had of having an economy that did anything save grow Bananas.

Within our own countries, the Soviets oppressed and shot those foolish enough to step out of line. The party ruled all. In the United States McCarthy persecuted anyone he didn't like under the label "Communist," destroying lives and shattering families. Ethel and Julius Rosenberg were executed at Leavenworth on what remains spurious evidence.

When it comes down to it, Religion is a strange thing. It can take the form of people worshiping a God, or people worshiping an idea as a god. The Soviet System was one of secular theocracy, a society ruled by a priesthood of an idea... a secular idea. The American Dream has become a kind of God to Americans. We certainly worship money in much the same way as Europeans worshiped Christ in the 14th Century. Money brings happiness, security, and prosperity in our culture -- and to medieval Christians, that would constitute a form of worship.

Ultimately, it is people, not religions that commit the great crimes of history. Mao's Genocide against the Chinese peasants (60 Million or more) was a secular genocide, but one which still played upon the fundamental ideological structures that make up a religion. Hitler's genocide against the Jews (6 Million) is the same way, as was Stalin's genocide against the Ukraine (30 Million).

Religion and religious ideology is a powerful organizational factor in history. Though religion you can get people to do things that they would not normally do. Foucault, a french philosopher, addressed an idea called the Penopticon, the society in which you are constantly watched and in which the society polices itself. When you drive down the interstate and don't speed (much) that's the pentopicon at work. Religion usurps this idea, making people believe not only that they are being watched by men, but that in some way their deviance from the law or ideal behavior violates or alerts some higher power -- be that power a deity or just a really important idea.

As to the behavior of the US in the post cold war world -- history hasn't yet judged. The roll of the world's policeman is a strange one. Where we intervene and were we do not invariably draws condemnation from someone, though I would hasten to say that there have clearly been failings. We know Saddam to have been a murderous dictator - we sold him the weapons he used. We know he used them on his people - there are pictures to prove it.

The Taliban? I couldn't tell you. Lots of accusations have been made, but ultimately, the US has never seen humanitarianism alone to be a sufficient reason to invade a country. Bush thought Bin Laden might have been in Afghanistan. Until he catches the guy, I'm reserving judgment.

Sorry this is so long. You've all raised a lot of good points. I wish I could address them all.

[Skullkracker]

edit:
Killfile sure is quick, this goes to Mune

good

I was worried what you might say at this
so you just don't fancy the disciples

believe me, if I didn't find people who folow these teachings in a pre form, I would have just stayed with my semi-heretic ways

every religions produces bad examples and frauds, and they pain me very much

but alas:
I've been trampled by many women, and heard many stories about men getting completely ruined by them, but still, I don't think that all women are bad, and I can love them with the same old raging flame

[Shaka Zulu]

Just to clarify.The sovjets,Nazi's and the US was brought into to this because ucrzymofo87 decided to play the blaming game and recited the evils Islam have done lately with the evils of Saddam(This has anything to do with Islam?:lol: not even indirectly,the man slaughterred Shia's because of their religion),Al Qaida and the Talibans(which are political entities,not religious ones),which are all ironically created and funded by the US,and then later spurred by opposing the US(and Al Qaida uses religion just to recruit,nothing else,just an excuse).

And I or Nazgul mentionned why its even notworthy to mention those when they dont have much to do with religion,and if are talking about just evil,why not mention the Nazi's,the Sovjet or The US who are 1000 times worse then little states who opress their own countries instead fuck up the whole world and kill people directly or indirectly.

And our little naive friend here,ucrzymofo87,just repeated himself with vague comments about the talibans(still hasnt explained how the fuck they can be compared to the crimes of the crusades,or how they are more religion then politics) and etc.Or saying great the US is by spreading free elections,not wanting to admit how it has raped the world,and trying to justify it by saying the sovjets are worse.by their direct actions,the sovjets who just kill their opposing enemies might seem worse,but the US with its politics,killing and destroying nations witch sugacoated excuses,or indirectly influencing and controlling and doing whatever they want with pretty much every continent except Europe.Thats pretty screwed up,to say the least,quite stupid to try to argue against that.

Once again,mentioning those,I wasnt referring to religion at all.

[ucrzymofo87]

shaka zulu: you're history is as vague as they come. "the US raped the world." come on, the US sends more money in aid to foreign nations than any other country on the planet. THAT IS NOT VAGUE, that is fact. what countries has the US raped? please elaborate.

as far as the taliban is concerned, here is how they relate to Islam: Mullah Mohammed Omar brought about the Taliban through the institution of a very strict interpretation of Sharia, or Islamic law. Public executions and punishments (such as floggings) became regular events at Afghan soccer stadiums. frivolous activities, like kite-flying, were outlawed. In order to root out "non-Islamic" influence, television, music, and the Internet were banned. Men were required to wear beards, and subjected to beatings if they didn't.

When the Taliban took Kabul, they immediately forbade girls to go to school. Moreover, women were barred from working outside the home, precipitating a crisis in healthcare and education. Women were also prohibited from leaving their home without a male relative—those that did so risked being beaten, even shot, by officers of the "ministry for the protection of virtue and prevention of vice." A woman caught wearing fingernail polish may have had her fingertips chopped off. All this, according to the Taliban, was to safeguard women and their honor.Their implementation of Islamic law seems to be a combination of Wahhabi orthodoxy (i.e., banning of musical instruments) and tribal custom (i.e., the all-covering birka made mandatory for all Afghan women).

in short, the taliban perverted Islam to pursue their own ends. that is not naive statements, that is fact.

[Necromancer]

I've always liked Islam because they accepted jesus as being a prophet of God but never put him before God. Islam has always seemed like a much more open adn accepting religious institution than christianity to me, historically speaking.

Like the catholics see Maria as a holy thing. After all she was just a tool used to give birth to a child for god. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Skullkracker]

where did my post go? did I screw it up?

I just wanted to say there can even be a fork in this thread to: "the USA, Islam, terrorism and other superpowers: whos is the wickedest?"

seriously you guys, don't get all personal

[Shaka Zulu]

shaka zulu: you're history is as vague as they come. "the US raped the world." come on, the US sends more money in aid to foreign nations than any other country on the planet. THAT IS NOT VAGUE, that is fact. what countries has the US raped? please elaborate.

Well well,its interesting how selective you choose to quote and address something,and skip everything else.

I didn't say USA raped the world,and that was that.I mentioned in what ways they screwed up the world.

In 2 of my previous posts(for example how they overthrew Iran's elected prime-minister in the 50's,because he didn't want to give away free oil),in which you didn't address.And you want me to state those again so you just can avoid to address it again? I will make it easy for you.Check Killfile's latest post,about the comparison between the Sovjet and the US,and in which ways the US did whatever they liked(he went into alot more details of it,I didn't because I thought it was common knowledge,apparently not),and yes,raped which ever country they wanted to(They way they put dictators to power,and killed elected leaders who didn't serve their interests,yes that's spreading democracy).

I wouldn't even try to defend it,instead of try to forget it (if I was an American)of what the US did to the world in the cold war(and is doing after it too,but it was more direct and easy to do so back then,just falsely accuse which ever government for being communists,and take them down,sadly for them,its not that easy these days).

Here,is an interesting note about foreign aid.Yes they donate out of goodwill.But they also donate because its suits their interest.And to which countries they give foreign aid to too matters alot(fairly good financial countries like Izrael and Egypt gets the most aid,this is just a bribe,to serve USA's interest),and they get alot of perks for it.If you wish to blind yourself of the economical colonialism that has been going on in the world,go ahead and do so.Its not that rosy as you depict it,I wish it was.

come on, the US sends more money in aid to foreign nations than any other country on the planet. THAT IS NOT VAGUE, that is fact.

Here is the interesting part.It depends on which way you mean that.In quantity it would seem so,and its also because the US is the richest country in the world,and is also population was one of the biggiest.But here comes an interesting stat(or fact as you would put it) you aren't probably aware of,because you seem to find pride in claiming to give the most aid in the world:

For example,both France and Denmark contribute much, much more to foreign aid compared to the US per person. Whereas most developed countries agree on 0.7% of GDP as a minimum threshold for foreign aid(btw in the country I live in,Sweden,is the country that gives most foreign aid/per person), the US is below 0.2 (0.17 I think - not that it is very much of a surprise considering that the various governments allow one in nine to be poor in your own country).

The special adviser to Kofi Annan on developmental aid is American, his name is Jeffrey Sachs, and he is one of the most reknown economists in the world. He considers the US aid contributions absolutely shameful (like he does every other developed country.But the US in particular because they are the richest in the world,and have that kind of low aid contribution).

But go ahead and repeat that you give the most in the world,and feel better about it,because that's whats seems to be important to you(being so eager to use it as an argument,to deflect from what your countries foreign policies has done to the world).

according to the Taliban

qouted to emphasize


(oooh sorry,did I just play your game and skipped the other things you said about the talibans......I wonder why )

[ucrzymofo87]

like skull said, try not to get personal shake zulu.

your information is correct as far as percentage of GDP goes. as a percentage of GDP, UJS foreign aid is small.

however, in actual dollar amounts the US gives more aid than the other countries of the world.

btw, your post on Sat Sep 10, 2005 at 1:42 pm clearly states, "Or saying great the US is by spreading free elections,not wanting to admit how it has raped the world." so u did say the US raped the world.

[Shaka Zulu]

I didnt mean I didnt say the US raped the world,I did say that(an exagerration which I use just to emphasize).But I meant was that I didnt say the US raped the world,and didnt try to explain that claim.I did just that in several posts.But you then said in your latest post that me saying that was a vague comment,and which i havent explained.While I just did that as stated,in posts which you ignored to address.

Thats why it may seem that I was getting personal,the fact that you come along several posts later,and say I should explain myself in a point which I have already done before(not just once,but twice).Its not my responsibility if you one time choose to ignore what I said in a post,and then later demand that I just explain the same thing in another post.

Nevertheless,sorry if I came off to be personal or aggressive.

"however, in actual dollar amounts the US gives more aid than the other countries of the world."

This mean jack shit,you know that right? You make it sound like that the US is the most generous and giving country in the world,when its proved that it isnt.

The only thing it is,is that the US has a very high population,and the fact that its the richest country in the world.Its not a thing to commend a country for,that it is the richest country.It doesnt mean its the most giving country.Which its proved that it isnt.If it was,they would have alot higher percentage of GDP for foreign aid,instead of having one of the smallest in the western countries(Canada has higher,half of the more northern western european countries has fair precentage higher,as I stated in my previous post).