Religion. The Good, The Bad, the Ugly

[MrFelony]

I guess its hard not to judge an idea (religious organizations, especially the west) when you meet only the bad representatives. but you CAN base your opinion on an organization based on the people it lets in . but I think you'll find that all of the people here on this forum are a lot different from the closed minded people you meet on other ones, well at least most of us .

[psi29a]

... is n00b bashing considered to be closed-minded-ish?

[Killfile]

A long post deserves a longer reply.

by the way, if you knew anything about the previous pope, he was not living in the past, he was very up-to-date and a great philosopher too

The previous Pope brought into practice many aspects of the Church better left forgotten, including the practices of excluding the lower classes from churches in South America. Under his predecessor, this shameful practice had been abandoned. Way to go JPII.

but even the most modern pope cannot give up on basic principles of the church, for those principles are not his to determine

Well, yea, he can. That's what the Pope does.

16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

This is the clause of loosing and binding. It gives unto the throne of Peter (the Pope) the power to alter Church doctrine... quite literally with divine authority.

and I owe Killfile a reply

you said something about punishing people for deviancy
no that means sending a psycho to prison

No, you send a psycho to prison for killing 43 people and using their eyes to play golf. The old man who lives down the road and yells at kids to get off his damn laws is probably psycho too... but until he kills someone or actually does something illegal, you can't send him to prison. At least, not in this country.

and.... oh well, I'll have to mix the two
the USA has little to do with civilizations of differed wedding habits (hope I got 'em words right)
the cradle of the whole European and therefore American civilization is supposed to be the christian-Jewish religion (I'm out of vocabulary at the moment), and has it's marriage traditions

No. The Judeo-Christian ethic, while an important underpinning of the European civilization, is not "supposed" to be anything. It happens to be where white Americans come from. But Americans are of every color and every ethnicity. We hail from many places, not all of which are part of the Judeo-Christian tradition. Just because there are more of us who hail from that background that doesn't mean we have the right to discriminate against those that practice other beliefs and religions.

Homosexuality has appeared in every corner of the world and in every civilization. To say that one form of sexuality is somehow "better" than another bespeaks a kind of ethnocentrism and intolerance that has lead to many of those great crimes we discussed earlier.

As for the Baptist Church, which you mentioned... Baptists, particularly (but not exclusively) Southern Baptists have a long and storied history of aiding, financing, and encouraging the efforts of the Klu Klux Klan.

Now there's a bunch of good Christian boys!

and what I suggested somewhere else, the silent majority can't afford to give in to every loud minority
partly because it gave ground to communism and partly because there are much bigger problems at hand IMO

Uh... what? Communism has nothing to do with this save that Communists were persecuted and abused in the 1950s in much the same way as blacks in the 1870s, Jews in Germany and Russia in the 1920s, and Homosexuals in the USA in the 1990s onwards.

The silent majority has a responsibility to protect the rights of the minority, no matter how distasteful. Otherwise they have no guarantee that their own rights will be protected should they someday form the minority.

It's hard to forget when an organization supposedly dedicated to the teachings of Jesus "Love thy neighbor" Christ manages to maim, persecute, and kill untold thousands because they worship the same god in a different way. That's why. It proves that even the best intentions can do evil.,

were you there?
I don't know which historical event you are talking about right now
(Hitler and Stalin were not Christians but I guess you know, and no telling how many died because of them)
and how many died by the hands of atheist? got ya didn't I?
and how many Christians for that matter? in some countries they still die for what they believe in

Was I there? No, but I studied pretty long and hard for my history degree, which I think gives me a pretty good right to discuss, with some authority, history.

I'm referring to the Crusades and the Inquisition. Though, now that you mention it - the 100 years war and the 30 years war were strongly influenced by religion.

Stalin and Hitler weren't adherents of the Christian religion in any meaningful sense, though Hitler was aided and abetted by Pope Pius XII. They were adherents and leaders of their own secular religions. Stalin instituted what has been termed a "secular theocracy" in Russia. Hitler created a religion of race.

To ask "how many died at the hands of an atheist" is unquestionably one of the most idiotic comments I've yet to encounter. Atheism does not command one to spread it's gospel. It does not ask it's adherents to judge the believers of the world. It is the judgment of others and the dehumanization of them for their lack of belief that makes religion dangerous.

To a religious radical, the nonbeliever is non-human. To a radical atheist the believer is ill informed.

about science: I'll look it up once, but it is not omnipotent as many may think

and you talk about the failure of religion too. are you Mune in disguise?
on what basis? if a religion fails, it gets lost among the tides of history

I simply argue that religion is no more finding its limits than science or vise versa. You simply tossed that out because you had nothing else to say. An infamous patent examiner in the 1800s once commented that everything that could be invented had been. Science has a way of surprising us.

Religion, in contrast, has a way of telling us what to think and then being proved wrong.

I'd challenge you to name one verifiable time in all of human history when religion and science have clashed and religion has come away the victor. Before you say evolution or the creation of the Universe, remember that those are still ongoing battles, and have yet to be decided.

[LordMune]

"all those people are probably dead by now"

Yes, but their beliefs are now core parts of a widespread religious sect with a penchant for violence.

[Oro]

Just wanna clear couple of things about Islam here,1st we do believe in Jesus,not as a son of god but as Prophet and its in our religion to respect him as much as Mohammad,2nd it's not in our religion that if someone who doesn't believe(Kafir) are going to hell,we is no one to judge someone,its only for God to decide who goes to Hell or Heaven.

[Shaka Zulu]

Convinve me if I'm wrong, I'll try hat too.

There is no proving wrong or right here really.And I mean that in general about religion discussions,and not what you were referring to when you said prove me wrong.Because I doubt very much that this discussion will persuade anyone either way.Its ok to discuss it,But it will eventually lead to quite a few dead ends because if you disagree about religion,then you are in two different spectrum's that are 1000000000 light years from each-other,and there is no point in proving each-other to be right or wrong in any way,because you will eventually stumble upon the mother of fecking dead ends,which is "does God exist" We wouldn't want to go there,would we?;).

I think that such a thing would be beyond our range of capabilities(I mean to proof if God exist or not.Its quite arrogant to even think you can), and in my opinion, the proving or disproving of God is as yet unattainable.Either you have faith,or you don't.

Having faith,having belief, comes down to individual experiences and feeling--I believe in God, but far be it for me to tell you,or that anyone should tell us, what to believe as I think no one person has the definitive answer.When it all comes down to it,its between you and the lord,no one else.I'm not that knowledgeable about Christianity,but this is what I don't find many mentions of in the bible,that its simply between you and God.That's its very specifically mentioned in the Qur'an(I'm brought up in Islam btw,not that religious,but I believe) over and over again,and true Muslims preach that(but men are so corrupted and love to judge).

The only true objection(you can found alot if you wish to nitpick,but still,in essence its beyond great) I have to religion is when mankind tries to judge others in Gods place. If cheating, drinking, cursing, praying to the Gods of Football, homosexuality etc etc are truly sins, then leave it to God to judge those guilty.Because as said,its between man and God.And even worse, those who don't only think they can judge in Gods name,but also execute and slaughter millions and millions of people in his name,like Christianity has in crusades and so on(Because thats how they spread the religion,going around the world and forcing to convert,or kill you.those kind of religious poeple are I believe,the first ones to face Godsjudgment.).And its naive if you keep saying its the past,and say how they dont speak for todays religion,when its exactly what defines todays religion.Its quite void of a argument if you say,that they dont represent todays todays christianity because they are dead,what kind of argument is that?


P.S Sorry for the random general talk,not trying to discourage on a discussion on it.And not addressing you persé(not entirely atleast),but just don't fall on the typical trap of thinking you can convince or prove anyone wrong.Just a forewarning,because I have seen alot of those endless debates.

P.S II Lordmune,those who live in Sweden end up in hell? I live in Sweden Ehh whaddaheck,hearing about The Hula Hula parties they have down there with Saddam and all those maniacs doing the macarena dance,why not

[Skullkracker]

wheeew, tangled, tangled, and I"m tired as fuck so let's see:

"all those people are probably dead by now"

Yes, but their beliefs are now core parts of a widespread religious sect with a penchant for violence.

I lost the line here, so I just have to ask: WTF are you talking about?
I honestly don't know what this is supposed to mean...details please

Nazgûl: I knew most of it, and it's best that all know about it, but I don't mean to start inter-religious warfare here...just arguing with the...hmmm...members that try to pant Christianity as a cancer of mankind

well Killfile, you are a toughie, but OK, let's do this:

what I said about communism and loud minority: remember how Lenin got into power

The previous Pope brought into practice many aspects of the Church better left forgotten, including the practices of excluding the lower classes from churches in South America. Under his predecessor, this shameful practice had been abandoned. Way to go JPII.

you sure he had anything to do with that?
doesn't really fit into the picture

and about the Pope's devine authority...oh whatever, I don't care for this part, but smart reply, congrats

No. The Judeo-Christian ethic, while an important underpinning of the European civilization, is not "supposed" to be anything. It happens to be where white Americans come from. But Americans are of every color and every ethnicity. We hail from many places, not all of which are part of the Judeo-Christian tradition. Just because there are more of us who hail from that background that doesn't mean we have the right to discriminate against those that practice other beliefs and religions.

so they are the only ones discriminating, how come I never noticed that so far? just becouse they do not marry homosexual couples? that would be going against so many of the principles they follow
and the church I consider myself a part of takes in people from so many backgrounds, they don't discriminate anyone. more details about what you mean
I don't like general charges and I try not to make any, warn me if I did

Homosexuality has appeared in every corner of the world and in every civilization. To say that one form of sexuality is somehow "better" than another bespeaks a kind of ethnocentrism and intolerance that has lead to many of those great crimes we discussed earlier.

Ok, homosexuality: I often feel like talking to a lot of bi-sexuals here. If you state that one form of sexuality preferred to another is intolerant signifies kinky preferences

(sorry, I didn't want to be offensive or personal but please:
- heterosexuality is what our species were biologically programmed for
- it produces children)

About baptists and KKK, seems hard to believe, but the USA is so much different. It surely didn't go that way in Europe, especially where I live. Gipsies (in a rap song calles the "niggas of Europe"), the most widespread inority here, are all accepted into the church.
and how many of other religions and philosophies supported them?
oh, and how come the Basptist Church us so popular in black communities then?

The silent majority has a responsibility to protect the rights of the minority, no matter how distasteful. Otherwise they have no guarantee that their own rights will be protected should they someday form the minority.

true, but the minority can't force it's ways on the majority either

about "atheists killing more", ok let's try it again:
just what do you think people who don't take the ten cammandments seriously do?
this is where I would like to clear the meaning of two words:
being religious does not equal being a believer
a religious person says he belongs to a hurch, and mostly visits it as well
a believer is somone wo lives his faith, there is a huge difference
the Bible says that even demons believe in God, and they fear him as well
many pose as christians, who do not give a f*ck about it all. and only use the name of God as a swearword

about science: I'll look it up
just becouse science could produce a great boost a few centuries ago and gave paople great confidence in themselves was a blow to religion, but it is not a failure
the age we live in is a secular one...sigh...

aww, I'm tired now...plz read

[LordMune]

wheeew, tangled, tangled, and I"m tired as fuck so let's see:

"all those people are probably dead by now"

Yes, but their beliefs are now core parts of a widespread religious sect with a penchant for violence.

I lost the line here, so I just have to ask: WTF are you talking about?
I honestly don't know what this is supposed to mean...details please

It was a rather clever metaphor for Christianity.

(sorry, I didn't want to be offensive or personal but please:
- heterosexuality is what our species were biologically programmed for
- it produces children)

The mentally/physically disabled, and those damn communist bastards contribute absolutely nothing to society. Burn them all.

just what do you think people who don't take the ten cammandments seriously do?

Act according to common sense. Which is a lot safer than using the ten commandments to justify your actions.

[psi29a]

... those damn communist bastards contribute absolutely nothing to society. Burn them all.

quoted for truth!

[Necromancer]

I always liked the Nod "story" side more than the "true" bible story. Random comment for religions.

I think most of those uber religious people aren't really that religious. Humans always tended to abuse religions to get mighty, corrupting everything. People killed in the name of god. Getting opponents out of the way etc.

I am not against religions but most people take them too serious or use them in wrong ways.
As a member of a christian family, son of a man of the church I saw many aspects of religion and supidity.

But after all no one will ever now which one is the one and only "true" religion or if there really is a god.
Let's discuss this again on judgement day.

[isse-pisse-päron-pung]

Bah. Im no believer but im still a christian. That's what I would say.

a) I follow God's commandments even though I don't believe in him/her/it. I don't kill I respect my parents, various aspects of manners and so on. Those who claim they don't believe in a God(s) still follow these commandments (Well most do).

A lot of people gets married even though they don't believe in God. As far as I know some members on this forum is married but they don't particularly believe in God and stuff.

Seems a little hypocritical to me.

Saying that the eastern religions are peaceful is a joke as well . My father is working on Sri Lanka and he told me that buddhists and hindus are as effective at killing eachother as any other religious fanatics are everywhere.

The religion I would accept most would be Buddhism where you focus more on yourself than on having a commitment to God.

Overall I think that people need a higher power just because they can't accept the fact that they are their own masters.

[MrFelony]

I've always liked Islam because they accepted jesus as being a prophet of God but never put him before God. Islam has always seemed like a much more open adn accepting religious institution than christianity to me, historically speaking.

[Libaax]

Funny that you should say that Mrfelony cause i saw a doc a week ago about the muslims that ruled spain 700 AD and couple of 100 years forward. They did protect the judes,the christian that lived in thier cities and even build churches for the christians.

I was shocked to see that knowing what happened betewen the muslims and the christain after the crusades up to now.

[MrFelony]

Muslims had a good policy of acceptance of other religions. though they conquered parts of north africa, asia, middle east, and europe, they didnt force their religion upon the inhabitants. they followed the belief that it is wrong to force people to switch religions. instead i believe they taxed the non-believers more stiffly and if i remember correctly a lot of jews changed religion because it was cheaper (not sure if that is true but its funny either way )

[Femto]

Has yet another mindwerks thread derailed into a religious discussion?

Oh my.

[psi29a]

Has yet another mindwerks thread derailed into a religious discussion?

Oh my.

Derailed? *looks at subject*

[Femto]

Wasn't this part of the gay marriage thread?

[psi29a]

Yup, forked that bad bear. Twice the fun.

[ucrzymofo87]

I've always liked Islam because they accepted jesus as being a prophet of God but never put him before God. Islam has always seemed like a much more open adn accepting religious institution than christianity to me, historically speaking.

recent history might prove otherwise i.e. the taliban and the ayatollah khomeni. there are two good examples of religion becoming entangled with the state and abusing power.

however, it seems that instead of recognizing abuses, killings, rapes, and genocides by the iranians and the afghans in the name of Islam, we are more focused on the abuses of the catholic church in the name of christianity six hundred years ago.

[isse-pisse-päron-pung]

People will always blame the whole organisation for it. When it is a minority group that is responsible for shit like that happens.

[Shaka Zulu]

i remember correctly a lot of jews changed religion because it was cheaper (not sure if that is true but its funny either way )

True dat And if you are willing to change to save some dough,then you arent a real believer of Judaism,dont you think ? Just commoner who is born to a religion,and dont care to stick to it that much.

And I would urge anyone to read about the different islamic emperiums and Kalipha's,very interesting and enlighting societies they were.

I've always liked Islam because they accepted jesus as being a prophet of God but never put him before God. Islam has always seemed like a much more open adn accepting religious institution than christianity to me, historically speaking.

however, it seems that instead of recognizing abuses, killings, rapes, and genocides by the iranians and the afghans in the name of Islam, we are more focused on the abuses of the catholic church in the name of christianity six hundred years ago.

Hahahaha,what kind of childish hypocrit are you?

Thats some funny shit,right there! Nooooo,Islam has not been abused and slated for everything little thing sense ages,hasn't it?

And believe me,you dont want to point fingers at others genocide(enlight me about the genocide you are referring to,if you are willing to compare it to Crusades,which you slaughterred muslims and jews to no end),when you are talking in the behalf of catholic church

Comparing religions its silly,when they have alot in common,but this is beyond silly,they way you sound right now,hahaha shit.

But please,tell me what you are referring to regarding the Talibans?and what in that regim whas islamic?(This is a rhetoric question that its very lost on you I assume,if you even think the talibans are islamic)that can speak for the entire of Islam.Please do.And what you were refering to regarding Iran and Khomeini.I'm interested in what mean.Your whole post sounded kind of vague(and other things that I wont say).And you sounded like minorities like the Talibans(I wont explain to you how islamic they are,want to here it from you) can be speak for the entire of Islam(which ironically though to their regime,dont have anything to do with,oops was that an small explanation on talibans?),and to top it off,you think they can warrant comparing with the Catholic church who represented its entire people,and who has slaughterred millions and millions in the name of God,is that what you were meaning with your post?

[Libaax]

I've always liked Islam because they accepted jesus as being a prophet of God but never put him before God. Islam has always seemed like a much more open adn accepting religious institution than christianity to me, historically speaking.

recent history might prove otherwise i.e. the taliban and the ayatollah khomeni. there are two good examples of religion becoming entangled with the state and abusing power.

however, it seems that instead of recognizing abuses, killings, rapes, and genocides by the iranians and the afghans in the name of Islam, we are more focused on the abuses of the catholic church in the name of christianity six hundred years ago.

The taliban arent muslims cause the first commandment in Islam say that you cant kill,which they do.

I can say the same thing that you said about christianity by naming Hitler,Milosivic and the other christians that have killed many people......

[ucrzymofo87]

the taliban claimed to be undertaking the will of allah. that's the truth. they distorted the islamic faith to repress their people. the same goes with iran. they have killed and abused their own people, but like i said, people dont seem to notice that. they notice the past sins of the christian church and instead do not look at the positive aspects of the church today. i can say without hesitation that the people who go to my church are decent and kind people. quite the opposite from the intolerant hatemongers that they are called and portrayed as. intolerance is rampant against those who practice christianity because people say "look what the church did to people in the 14th century." i wasn't around in the 1300s or 1400s and i can't change the past. the christian church i go to in this day and age is open to visitors and open to people who have ideas of their own. it would be nice if people kept and open mind and didn't knee jerk and be critical of christianity inherently.

[Libaax]

I dont know many people who goes all christians are evil etc. People are smart enough to know that that's but at the same time many western people treat all muslims like they are with al-qaida.


Even here in Sweden there are studies that showed many % is afraid of muslims and dont trust them just cause what a group of men did 9/11.

My point being since we live in a world there the super power is a christian country, islam will be seeing as something evil.
I geuss it would be the other way around if the super power country was muslim country.

[Oro]

Damn hypocrites,If your own ppl do things like abuses, killings, rapes, and genocides , you choose to ignore it and if some other race does the same thing they are wrong and evil.

As far as Power abuse goes,christians abused it more than anyone esle,when your religion stop spreading and islam was spreading like fire,you ppl forced other weak races like south americans,africans, half of asians to covert or die.thats the only reason why there are more christians than muslims right now.If we would have done the same thing, around half of the world would be muslim right now.