Russia and China holding joint military exercises

[TheDarkness]

well i could post on some earopean problems but most of them are non english so need to be translated and it also involves a lot of countries so it is extremely hard to get a good line through em from which one can make arguments

[Southpaw]

yeah but still i don't think it correct to look at them as if they might invade America any moment... Ok so they might be increasing their army.... so what. An army has more then 1 purpose. Believe me... In Holland the "war-part" is the least of all the jobs the military has.

It's a great deal more complex than that. There are certain perks that come with having the biggest baddest military in the world. Those perks are bigger and nicer when no one else even comes close.

The ability to bully a few dozen countries into "helping" you knock over an oil rich dictator in the Mid East is one such perk.

Holland, or any European country is a pretty bad example. Europe has some very interesting ideas about the role of the military dating to 1944, for reasons that I will leave as an exercise to the reader.

The US is used to policing the world (we've been doing that since 1991) and the western world since 1945. Because of US policing, there are certain things that we take for granted - things that benefit Europe and other western powers.

Were China or Russia to eclipse the US as a major power you might see a major shift in the general political climate of the international system. Certainly a great deal less interest in Europe as a major force in economics.

Moreover, war between superpowers in the 20th and 21st century isn't about invasion anymore. Sure, armed with pitchforks the population of China could realistically take over the world. Fortunately, there isn't an overabundance of pitchforks in China. More to the point, China's military has better ways of exerting its will, both directly and indirectly, upon the western world.

As economic winds shift, those means will become more diverse, and the significance of the European-American dominated culture of the international system, the foundation upon which the last 500 years of world history have been built, will crumble.

if either of these countries would want to start a war they will need more then just the resources that they have themselves. An embargo would make the chance of an all out war smaller. And still i don't hink that the next big war will be fought with normal weapons for which you need huge army's. It will probably involve countries pushing a button to launch a missile (ok that might be overly simplefied but in essence that is what i think it will come down to).

and for that krymson guy... take it easy man... you ain't an expert yourself so unless you can prove anything he said wrong just STFU

To start off they have more than enough resources to wage war at this current time. The need for the natural resources is more important to their economic growth than anything else.

As for an embargo, not likely. China is a hella big country to attempt to embargo. Not to mention most countries export a great amount of goods to China or manufacture their own products. It would just be too self destructive to contemplate an embargo of China.

[TheDarkness]

well if the alternative would be destruction of capitalism the way we know it.... not much of a choice there.

[Southpaw]

WTF dude? How is the fact that China is turning into a superpower going to bring about the destruction of capitalism?

[TheDarkness]

them becomming a super power not but we were discussing the fact that they were getting stronger military wise and that this was a threat.... the economic part was a side trakc that was used for 2 posts or something..

well discussing might be big word btw...

[Killfile]

What, you think you're some kind of Russian expert? Idiot! There are people who are actually study this stuff so you don't have to. Sheesh.

Yes. That's exactly what I think I am. I hold a BA in history from the University of Virginia focusing on executive decision making in great empires, particularly the United States, The Soviet Union, and Ancient Rome.

I've studied under Phillip Zelikow, author of several very well known books on the Cold War and chair of the 9-11 commission. I've studied the role of and origins of war in the international system under Dale Copeland, a leading figure in the field of game theory. I've also studied Soviet History under Dr Rossman and Dr. McClellan, both significant contributors to the study of Stalinist period.

So yes, for the purposes of this form I'd say I'm as close as you're likely to get to an actual expert on Russia, the Soviet Union, and the Cold War.

Nice to meet you. I'm Killfile.

[TheDarkness]

1 : 0 for killfile

[Devil_Dante]

What, you think you're some kind of Russian expert? Idiot! There are people who are actually study this stuff so you don't have to. Sheesh.

Yes. That's exactly what I think I am. I hold a BA in history from the University of Virginia focusing on executive decision making in great empires, particularly the United States, The Soviet Union, and Ancient Rome.

I've studied under Phillip Zelikow, author of several very well known books on the Cold War and chair of the 9-11 commission. I've studied the role of and origins of war in the international system under Dale Copeland, a leading figure in the field of game theory. I've also studied Soviet History under Dr Rossman and Dr. McClellan, both significant contributors to the study of Stalinist period.

So yes, for the purposes of this form I'd say I'm as close as you're likely to get to an actual expert on Russia, the Soviet Union, and the Cold War.

Nice to meet you. I'm Killfile.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWW that was some pure pwnage, I could hardly follow. Yeah!!

[Shaka Zulu]

What, you think you're some kind of Russian expert? Idiot! There are people who are actually study this stuff so you don't have to. Sheesh.

Hahaha Killfile,I'm out of words Its hard to find a better ownage then that.Its even funnier that the dude has unbelievable bad luck in choosing who to confront on this matter Haha very convenient

[Artezul]

What, you think you're some kind of Russian expert? Idiot! There are people who are actually study this stuff so you don't have to. Sheesh.

Yes. That's exactly what I think I am. I hold a BA in history from the University of Virginia focusing on executive decision making in great empires, particularly the United States, The Soviet Union, and Ancient Rome.

I've studied under Phillip Zelikow, author of several very well known books on the Cold War and chair of the 9-11 commission. I've studied the role of and origins of war in the international system under Dale Copeland, a leading figure in the field of game theory. I've also studied Soviet History under Dr Rossman and Dr. McClellan, both significant contributors to the study of Stalinist period.

So yes, for the purposes of this form I'd say I'm as close as you're likely to get to an actual expert on Russia, the Soviet Union, and the Cold War.

Nice to meet you. I'm Killfile.

Reads like a resume... Clean cut.

[psi29a]

them becomming a super power not but we were discussing the fact that they were getting stronger military wise and that this was a threat.... the economic part was a side trakc that was used for 2 posts or something..

well discussing might be big word btw...

The economic part is what started this whole thread, it is the main topic at hand. USA, while worried about military of the east, it doesn't hold a light to the possible economical issues that this can create. It is subtext, read in between the lines and you will see a whole world of information. Sorry if this isn't translating very well, but the war-games themselves isn't that threatening to West in terms of military might. The trade that will ultimately happen due to closer ties between Russia and China can really have an interesting effect on the world economy. It is a very pivotal turn of events that is happening in our life time.

[Kêthêrîc]

kind of scary when you think about it. The military deal could end up being a problem if things go sour. We're not even out of Iraq yet, fighting another front might get sticky, especially with more economic problems. We'll were about due for an economic collapse anyhow....

[TheDarkness]

kind of scary when you think about it. The military deal could end up being a problem if things go sour. We're not even out of Iraq yet, fighting another front might get sticky, especially with more economic problems. We'll were about due for an economic collapse anyhow....

If (and this is one of the biggest IF's i have ever used) this would escalate. Forget about fighting on a front.... prepare for world war 3. Russia and China combined would be more then able to start a war against the rest of the world. Heck Germany did it twice (no offense) and they were way smaller size wise, economically and in terms of people.
Nother thing. If this would go sour as you say. Forget about an attack on America for a while... Europe would be the first to be attacked. Easier to reach and strategically more important then America cause if a counter offensive were to be launched it would be far easier to have some ground to land on or to prepare a bit that is close to the place the actual war will be fought (like Great Britain in the second WW).

But i don't expect something like this to happen and i don't really see any reason to panic in such an extreme way. And heck we might be discussing this but I'm sure that those that make the "real" decisions have already taken some kind of action. Even if it were just to make a few more plans or start on improving diplomatic relations.

[isse-pisse-päron-pung]

What I feel more worried about is the possible upcoming economical situation between Japan and China. Japan who has been the big player in asia for a really long time is losing their ground to China and this I believe will cause a lot trouble.

EDIT:

Or the fact that Russia will become a superpower in the next 40 years

[Skullkracker]

Russia is still kindof a superpower. But economy is shit in more and more countries...

[TheDarkness]

in the next 40 or 50 years there will most likely be no more oil in the ground. That is far worse then russia getting a bit more powerfull on this here rock we call earth

[Skullkracker]

Seriously man, if oil runs there will be economic hell! and most likely: war

Btw what's up with wind power in the Netherlands?
(you're Dutch right?)

[TheDarkness]

we do a lot of shit.... wind power is one of them but it is not yet as effective as we would like it to be. We are working on a project to build an island in the north sea and place nothing but wind mills on them to generate more power.
We also use solar energy for a lot of things but we can only compete with other countries in percentual usage of these kinds of energie. We are but a small country

[Skullkracker]

a small but neat country...with flowers!

[isse-pisse-päron-pung]

Tulip lovers )

[TheDarkness]

marihuana is legal in NL.... just don't carry too much at once

[Skullkracker]

why is it called joint military exercises

[isse-pisse-päron-pung]

joint is when you do something together with someone else, in this case russia and china had military excersises together.

[Kêthêrîc]

I'm pretty sure oil will be around for more than only 50 years, there is alot untapped. Plus, how would all those corporate assholes make there money?

[TheDarkness]

er the untapped resources amount to about 50 years (at current speed of usage). Then the stockpiles come into play and fuel for instance will probably cost 5 times as much as it does now.... i think the estimate was that in 80 years tops all the oil in the world would be depleted