Gay Marriage? Governor Schwarzenegger says no
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- Skullkracker
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Snipped by Killfile: Contents re-posted in religion thread by user.
edit: thanks <-- SK
edit: thanks <-- SK
Last edited by Skullkracker on Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Killfile
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It's not as if homosexual couples can sue churches to allow them to marry in the church. All anyone is talking about is a legal matter. A marriage is a legal arrangement. Many are preformed in churches in the context of a traditional wedding - but they can also be costume parties in the middle of a supermarket.Skullkracker wrote: but: seeing a gay wedding would still sting my eye, and I'm surely not the only one (for other reasons maybe)
If you're concerned about the corruption of a sacred ceremony, that's not at issue here. What's at issue is the right of a life partner to make decisions and choices and to be treated as a legal entity with their chosen partner -- regardless of sex.
Ok, but why is deviancy something we should punish people for legally? How about other models of marriage? Is polyandry (multiple husbands for one wife) ok? How about polygamy (multiple wives for one husband)? Both of these are well established and traditional forms of marriage that date back well before the romantic ideals of marriage we hold in the western world today. Be definition, our ideas of marriage are deviant from these order, more established ideas.Skullkracker wrote: I wouldn't want to live in a world where anything goes
We live in a world where our biology is based on heterosexuality
even if I wanted to leave out the "God created human as man and woman" part of the plot, the fact that the overwhelming majority of the human population is hetero make homosexuality a deviancy
I understand what you're saying. The argument you're making is called the "slippery slope." It's a common one, saying "If we cave now, why won't we cave later... and we'll keep on giving up until there is nothing left to give"Skullkracker wrote: which is the next we want to make legal, and thus normal?
I'm sure everybody's stomach has a limit, but if the avalanche starts, who is gonna stand up and stop it? (I hope you understand what I wanted to point out, I just can't seen to use my English so well after all)
It's also a logical fallacy. At some point an equilibrium is reached. We stop giving ground. It's the nature of the system. There's a lot of math behind this idea -- you can look up "slippery slope" for more information if you like.
I think there are bounds to fundamental human decency, but what goes on between two consenting adults is none of the state's business. There is no need to make judgments, implicit or otherwise, about what two individuals can agree to do or what contracts they can agree to enter in to.
No one is suggesting that non-consensual sex should be allowed. No one is suggesting that sex with things incapable of consent.
Moreover, I wonder why it is that you feel that government, not the masses in general, sets the bounds of what is taboo and what is normal.
It's hard to forget when an organization supposedly dedicated to the teachings of Jesus "Love thy neighbor" Christ manages to maim, persecute, and kill untold thousands because they worship the same god in a different way. That's why. It proves that even the best intentions can do evil.Skullkracker wrote: and how many times will someone bring up the "crusade and inquisition sux" argument? I also know that some popes in the past were the biggest players in town
On what basis do you make that assumption? Science is beginning to see its boundaries? How? Science is about the natural world and verifiable results. Science has no more seen its boundaries than religion has seen its failure.Skullkracker wrote: there are still wolves in a sheep's disguise, but why does everyone only see and remember a fault? how is it that people do not get disillusioned about science for example, when it was also derailed very often, and is beginning to see it's boundaries[?]
I've split the discussion of religion off into another thread in this forum. Please feel free to continue it there. This thread is about gay marriage and the current US debate on the subject.Skullkracker wrote: and another fact: religion did have a great role in the start of scientific exploration. as long as nature was considered all sacred and protected by taboos no real science could have evolved
Just so we are all on the same page, Homosexuality occurs in nature, a LOT more than people realize. It isn't a flaw. It is life, a reality, it is here, and it won't go away no matter how much it is repressed.
Reading material:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... nimal.html
Crime against nature? I think not.
Reading material:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... nimal.html
http://www.bidstrup.com/sodomy.htmNational Geographic wrote:Roy and Silo, two male chinstrap penguins at New York's Central Park Zoo have been inseparable for six years now. They display classic pair-bonding behavior—entwining of necks, mutual preening, flipper flapping, and the rest. They also have sex, while ignoring potential female mates.
This is even taught as part of Biology in University. Bonobo chimpanzees are 100% bi-sexual.Just as in humans, animals often form long-term same-sex relationships. In species in which this normally occurs in heterosexual couples, that shouldn't come as a great surprise, but it does come as a surprise in species where heterosexual pair-bonds don't normally form for long if at all. This is true of bottlenose dolphins, which are not known to form heterosexual pair bonds, but which do in fact form homosexual pair bonds, including sex, and often lasting for life.
Crime against nature? I think not.
- Skullkracker
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as far as humans consider themselves superior to animals it is not an explaination to me
is it an everyday occurance that paople go and give in to animalistic instincts randomly
and just a question:
there were many referances to great cultures and societies where homosexuality was considered normal
what happened to them?
is it an everyday occurance that paople go and give in to animalistic instincts randomly
and just a question:
there were many referances to great cultures and societies where homosexuality was considered normal
what happened to them?
- Skullkracker
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- Skullkracker
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By norm, do you mean that homosexuality isn't in the majority right now? Then you would be correct.
As for normalicy, that is a tricky word for me personally. For me, what is normal depends on where I am. If i'm with my parents, normal means something completely different than when I'm with my Fiance or coworkers or with friends or in another country for that matter.
As for normalicy, that is a tricky word for me personally. For me, what is normal depends on where I am. If i'm with my parents, normal means something completely different than when I'm with my Fiance or coworkers or with friends or in another country for that matter.
in my minds eye this is what happened. homosexuality used to be really big until monotheistic religion came around and now that we are seperating ourselves from religion moreso it's coming back again as more accepted practice.
and how does one penguin approach another one...its not like they have gay bars or anything
and how does one penguin approach another one...its not like they have gay bars or anything
- Killfile
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Dude! You're gay?!? I never knew. Wow, it must feel good to get out of the closet. So much off your chest, ya know what I'm saying?psi29a wrote: As for normalcy, that is a tricky word for me personally. For me, what is normal depends on where I am. If I'm with my parents, normal means something completely different than when I'm with my Fiance or coworkers or with friends or in another country for that matter.
Fiance refers to a man.
Fiancee refers to a woman.
See? Grammerarcy and Speelin is impertant.
God I'm an ass.
edit: Yes, you are an ass. Get back to work. -- psi29a
Ya got me!
Grammar Nazi strikes again! Friggen narc!
Grammar Nazi strikes again! Friggen narc!
Well, guess I gotta flex the 'ol hetero-sexual muscles here, as I'm marrying my fiance[e] on the 19th. Guess I'll post about it later. Finding someone to spend the rest of your life with is very very lucky as far as I'm concerned. However, limiting yourself to only the opposite sex imho takes away from your chances of finding that someone that will complete you. That is my personal take on it.Killfile wrote:(19:31:48) Killfile Trust me, I've got a Final Solution to your syntax problems
Last edited by psi29a on Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:52 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Indeed, it is a natural occuring thing. Studies have been done to try and turn people "back" into heterosexuals. My mother told me about this one, in an article in New York Times I believe....psi29a wrote:Just so we are all on the same page, Homosexuality occurs in nature, a LOT more than people realize. It isn't a flaw. It is life, a reality, it is here, and it won't go away no matter how much it is repressed.
But any who, scientists would hook up gay men to machine that would deliver shocks on every gay tendency. To try and train the brain "NO! That is bad!!" Needless to say, it did not work worth a shit. Dude was still gay.
Killfile wrote:Dude! You're gay?!? I never knew. Wow, it must feel good to get out of the closet. So much off your chest, ya know what I'm saying?psi29a wrote: As for normalcy, that is a tricky word for me personally. For me, what is normal depends on where I am. If I'm with my parents, normal means something completely different than when I'm with my Fiance or coworkers or with friends or in another country for that matter.
Fiance refers to a man.
Fiancee refers to a woman.
See? Grammerarcy and Speelin is impertant.
God I'm an ass.
edit: Yes, you are an ass. Get back to work. -- psi29a
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so you were the one who got stuck bitch . and as for skull's people are programmed for heterosexuality, some are also programmed for homosexuality, fetish's, and other sexual dimorphisms (right word?). This is a good thing for all this mutations in the way a person should act help ensure variance in the human population so if something were to afflict us or change in our environment we would be able to adapt. however that is sort of unimportant now that we have pretty much become self-adaptable to almost any situation
- evilester_me
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I think it should be legal, at least for financial reasons.
My best friends mother came out of the closet last year and now she lives with her mom, so the way I see it she has furthered the next generation, had a kid, and now gets to have fun with a same sex partner. Plus I really dont like the govenor.
My best friends mother came out of the closet last year and now she lives with her mom, so the way I see it she has furthered the next generation, had a kid, and now gets to have fun with a same sex partner. Plus I really dont like the govenor.
- Skullkracker
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Gay marriage = Derease birth rate = decrease citizen = decrease costumer = decrease army = US weak = US lose his superpower status
We must be know imposible gay couple have natural birth, if baby decreased industries loss their future costumer, and army loss their future member. Without strong industries and strong armies US will loss it`s status, i think that his reason ban samesex marrigge, so it not just about reliogion but about country fate. But since i`m not US citizen, and i really pissed of with US act as world cop i highly agree will same sex marriage since it was very effective way to destroy a country.
Maybe you should wacth Netherland as example, since same sex marriage legal it became one of reason low birth rate in there. Now Netherland full imigrant from Africa and Asia and they start take empty place which supposed native citizen right ( since native citizen decrese ). If it happen in US it will be good thing
We must be know imposible gay couple have natural birth, if baby decreased industries loss their future costumer, and army loss their future member. Without strong industries and strong armies US will loss it`s status, i think that his reason ban samesex marrigge, so it not just about reliogion but about country fate. But since i`m not US citizen, and i really pissed of with US act as world cop i highly agree will same sex marriage since it was very effective way to destroy a country.
Maybe you should wacth Netherland as example, since same sex marriage legal it became one of reason low birth rate in there. Now Netherland full imigrant from Africa and Asia and they start take empty place which supposed native citizen right ( since native citizen decrese ). If it happen in US it will be good thing