Little known Berserk facts...

Post by **psi29a** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:40 pm

OCD: obsessive-compulsive disorder

hence, it is a disorder, not an 'illness' which is a result of a disease which OCD is not.

You don't have to take my word for it:
http://www.srmhp.org/0102/dysfunction-analysis.html
http://dictionary.com/

Given enough time, one can classify anyone with some form of mild disorder or dysfunction. Just one of those endearing human qualities we all have. Miura has been kind enough to make characters that are not 'supermen'.

Post by **NINJ4** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 12:40 am

ok, then we all agree that Griffith isn't mentaly ill, just disordered

Post by **psi29a** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 4:17 am

No, we all agree to disagree. Get it yet?

Post by **NINJ4** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:54 am

I completely agree!

Post by **Starnum** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:11 am

Ninja: Dude, Gatts was not just a toy to Griffith. If you really think that, then you failed to really get to know the old Griffith. Yes, the fact that he had failed at something was a factor in Griffith’s downfall, but more importantly, it’s the fact that his best friend walked out on him. I don’t care what he says, that’s the truth. Sure, his ideals may be one thing, but his true feelings are another. No one is perfect, not even Griffith. Whether he wanted to admit it or not, he cared about Gatts, and the rest of the hawks for that matter. He even cared about that little boy that died. Geez, when people think such shallow things about Griffith, it just irks me. Pay more attention, the truth is obvious. He also doesn’t send kids to their doom. They fight for him of their own accord. I could list reason after reason to further back the belief, that Griffith WAS NOT A COLD HEARTED BASTARD!

Post by **Brainpiercing** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:16 am

The fact THAT he sells himself to Genon shows he was not a cold-hearted bastard. However, he did send people to their deaths, because he took their allegiance. But he was leading a mercenary band, what do you expect he should do? And the people who were fighting for him expected no less from him than his leadership.

Post by **NINJ4** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:19 am

DUDE, Guts was not Griffith's "Best Friend." In fact, Griffith is the one that kinda stated this with his "No one is my friend" and "My friend would only be someone who has his own dream" stuff. And you can't really say he is in self denial because he had those eyes when he said it. Also, he is cold hearted cause he kinda cheered when Julius's son died.

It's not that Griffith is shallow, he's deep - deep in mud and filth.

Post by **Starnum** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:25 am

I never said that Griffith was shallow. I said that anyone who thinks he used to be cold hearted, was shallow. Take a minute to understand what I’m saying, because you obviously have no inference skills at all, and apparently a low reading comprehension. YES! I can say that he was in self-denial, in fact, I already have. If you want to believe surface facts then that’s fine. I however prefer to actually judge people by their actions, and not just their words. Just because I say I never care about anyone or anything they say, think, or do…doesn’t make it true.

Post by **Eldo** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:47 am

Well, I agree with Starnum that Griffith isn't cold-hearted. He only at laughed Adonis' death because one of his objectives was completed and there was one less obstruction in his path of becoming king.

POINTS THAT SHOW GRIFFITH WAS NOT AS EVIL AS HE SEEMS:

1) He wanted to minimise sacrifaces. That's why he slept with the count.
2) He took a blow for Guts when facing Zodd. And also the fact he went to look for him.
3) He persisted to look for Guts and Casca when they fell of the cliff against the best wishes of some generals.

While Griffith is ruthless to whoever that opposes him, he still treats his comrades with respect in their abilities. The only thing that I disagree is Griffith treating Guts as his best friend. I believed that the relationship between them were similar to a King with a general - the king may have full confidence in the general's abilities and treat him with respect, but that does not make the general his friend. (don't give me an example with Macbeth

)

Post by **Starnum** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:52 am

By best friend, I meant that of all of his friends, he was the closest to Gatts. He was just to damn friendly with the guy to not care about him. Gatts asks him so many times, “Why did you save me.” Griffith said, “Do I really need a reason?” He didn’t want to say it, but it’s pretty obvious. He cared about him. Of all the people Griffith knew, there is no doubt, that Gatts was his “best” friend.

Post by **Eldo** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 10:01 am

Well, I see your point Starnum. While he was not his equal, of all the 'friends' that Griffith has, Guts was the 'best' out of them. While Griffith's definition of 'friend' is different, it is obvious that Guts is the most trusted and closest person to him.

Well, I guess in funnier terms, their relationship is like a old women who calls the fire brigade because her cat is stick up the tree

Post by **Starnum** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 10:03 am

I'm afraid I see no relevancy in that last metaphor.

Post by **Eldo** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 10:06 am

Starnum wrote:I'm afraid I see no relevancy in that last metaphor.

That was an 'only Eldo' thing humour. I was implying that Griffith cares about Guts in the same way an old lady would with her cat.

Post by **Starnum** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 10:12 am

Oh...I see. I'm afraid I disagree with that. I really think it was much deeper than that. Truthfully, I really do believe they were best friends. I mean, look at the way they used to look at each other, talk to each other, and treat one another. Plus, they both risked their lives for each other. I mean, it doesn't get much more best friend than that. Griffith treated Gatts unlike anyone else. It used to burn Casca up how he cared more about Gatts than anyone else.

Post by **NINJ4** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 10:14 am

Did I say that you said that Griffith was shallow? No, I simply made a statement that Griffith was not shallow. To assume that I have no inferance skills when you mistake my opinion as a false recount of your ideas means ur in too much a rush Starnum.

If you discount that gaze that Griffith has and consider that to be simply a surface fact then yes, Griffith is in some state of self denial. That gaze however is by no means any spoken word and it is clearly an action that seems to be hinted by Miura that Griffith is fully in the right set of mind with full awareness of the actions which has and will partake in as well - he is not in a state of self denial and deception. Although that alone does not define his true tempermant towards his comrades, the combination of all his actions up to the point after the assasination of Julius (or was it Yurius???) is enough to convince me that Griffith really does just consider Guts and the others in his mercenary group a toy. Now, this is of course just my opinion and I also "prefer to actually judge people by their actions, and not just their words" - which for Griffith was that emotional "I want you" and "Do I need a reason to save you?"

Post by **Starnum** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 10:30 am

Oh, so the comment about Griffith not being shallow was just completely random. How foolish of me to assume it was in response to something I had said.

See, you still fail to really understand what I’m trying to say. Of course Griffith has that look in his eyes when he speaks of his convictions. Those are indeed his ideals, something he cares about, and tries to live by. The key words here are, “tries” to live by. I’m sure for the most part; he does generally feel that way about people. That’s why his relationship towards Gatts seems almost affectionate. He doesn’t normally act that way towards people. However, like all men, he is fallible in regards to his own ambitions. He may feel very strongly about these issues, but it’s still clear to me, through his actions, that he did care. If you’re going to talk about the look in his eyes, go back and look at how they smile at each other. Look at the deep meaningful gaze he gives Gatts when he says, “Do I really need a reason, for something like that?” It simply screams out, “Because I care about you silly.” It's like, if your brother saved your life, and you asked him why he did it. One would assume the answer would be very obvious. I think that's what Griffith was impling at the time. Kind of like, why do you have to ask? Isn't it obvious? Of course, as this is all entirely subjective, these are just my personal believes. I don’t understand how anyone can overlook the many suggestions towards Griffith’s true gentler nature. Anyway, I guess well just have leave it at that. We’re all entitled to our own opinions *shrugs*.

Post by **NINJ4** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 10:37 am

lol, acutally I DO understand what you are saying, but for the time being is simply a matter of opinion - so, just because I disagree with you - it doesnt mean that I don't understand you Starnum

Post by **Starnum** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 10:42 am

*Nods* That's good. I have to admit, the fact that you understand is a bit more refreshing.

Post by **Libaax** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 11:49 am

You saw from the start that Griffith only cared about Guts cause he was a strong wepeon for Griffith goals. He knew without Guts the Hawks wouldn't become famous and that he wouldn't becoma a knight.

Post by **Eldo** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 11:58 am

Heh.

Well, here's what I think:

...

...

...

Oh, it's already been discussed and over. I was watching Iron Chef so I missed out making my points.

Well, no matter. Here's my view in simple terms: Griffith has a heart. Guts treats Griffith as friend, but Griffith does not treat Guts as his equal.

So, it's like a blend between Starnum's and Ninj4's opinions.

It's weird, because I think in Griffith's mind, while his philosophy states that his equal must be one who carries a dream, with Guts he's overwhelmed with different and mixed emotions that he probably didn't realise until his torture. He probably doesn't even know he's treating Guts as a friend.

But it's obvious at the end, that Griffith treats Guts in a high regard, since 'he made me forget about my dream', so he probably sank down to 'their' level, to the point where he contradicts his philosophy. So their friendship/relationship can be debatable...I don't think Muira himself knows the truth behind it or could give a clear indication either.

He left it like that so it would evoke our own opinions on the matter. Or let's just end it and say that Idea made Griffith feel and act in this behaviour, and we'll all just soulless bags of flesh that is governed by fate

.

Anyway, on to small things...I was re-reading some chapters earlier, and there's a reason why Godo stays in the woods. It's because there used to be elves that lived there. I missed that out the first time.

Post by **Arresty** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 10:57 pm

Well I was out last night so I missed all this discussion. My opinion falls fairly close to Starnum on this one. Griffith did not think of him as a friend, but that was because of his defination friend. In all normal uses of the word and normal society standards they would be a friend. Now griffith kind of has to personalities pre ecplipse. One is a normal human and one is the future member of the God Hand. One of the reasons for the sacrafice for apostles and the god hand is that is a way of you discarding your humanity. When Griffith woudl get that look in his eye it was always the focused drivven future God Hand member, but when Guts was around him, and he laughed or risked his life to save him, he would be human, the gentle side Starnum was mentioning. Guts was the only person who could bring that person out completely into the open. Before that part may make apearances but still driven for his goal, but here Griffith actually throws away his dreams for Guts on many occasions. He fights Zodd knowing there is no way to win. If it had not been for the Behelit he woudl have died, ended his dream. Guts was key to the Band of the Hawks, but you can always find another good fighter. People don't risk everything just for a toy, like Griffith did for Guts. Guts was not his friend by his defination, but I think he realized as soon as Guts left that he more than a tool. Thats why he went to Charlotte afterwards. His human side, was hurt and needed comforting in a way and that was what he did. When he looked Guts in the eyes and decided to sacrafice everyone, at that moment was when he finally through away all his humanity.

Post by **Buzkashi** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 3:47 am

*sigh* Well I'm Here

I think its safe to say that Griffith is a Machiavellian thinker. That for him the ends justify the means. Now some would say that he is just simply using Gutts and the Hawks to complete his goals. Which I believe is true. But that doesnt mean that he was inhumane. Griffith DID consider Gutts a friend and he did save his life. But now lets consider why he is Gutts friend. I believe he is so close to Gutts because Gutts is so important to his future of claiming the throne. Im not saying thats the sole reason for him being Gutts friend, but Im saying that , well what I'm saying is that he wouldnt risk his life the way he did for Gutts for some like, Pippin or Judeau.
Some would say that Griffith sold himself to the Count to reduce the body count from battles. But what I believe is that he simply needed the money and being the Machiavellian thinker he is it didnt matter what he did as long as he accomplished his goal. Some would also say that Griffith isn't Gutts friend because of what he said with Charlotte. However I believe that was a spur of the moment type of thing. That he did that to sound bigger infront of Charlotte. Because it doesnt matter if he lies or kills as long as he achieves his goals.
And finally some say that because he was willing to sacrifice all of his Hawks to become a Godhand that he was inhumane. But think about it. If you had been tortured for a year strait and all your goals were gona be gone forever, and you would never be able to walk or do anything at all you would pretty much just kill yourself. But what if someone came to you saying they could make you greater then before, that they could make all your dreams come true. But in return you had to sacrifice everything you care for. What would you do?

P.S- the fact that he could sacrifice the hawks shows he cared for them because you have to sacrifice what you love most.

P.P.S - Forgot to put this in my original one. Cause i really dont have a certain point in this. Im just stating things that have been on my mind. Another interesting thing to htink of is that if Griffith wasnt Gutts friend then he wouldnt invite him to join his Neo Hawks. But he did, and they already have people stronger then Gutts(Zodd).

Post by **Arresty** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 6:30 am

*sigh* I'm here too, tonight.

And I agree with you about him believing hte ends justifies the means, but I disagree with some of you other stuff. I think Guts was more than just someone important to the team and important for his goal. You are still saying that that is all he is. Also Guts was the one person who would make Griffith forget about his goals. That was one of the reasons Casca hated Guts for so long is because Griffith woudl throw away his dream for Guts. Guts was more that someone to achieve his goal. Especially when Guts left he was no longer needed at all. War was over, it was all peace time stuff, and that he could do without Guts. He may have to find other ways to do assassinations, but then again, he had already elliminated all of his oppsoition. Guts stayed around for all he coudl do. At the moment he left he was truely no longer needed.

I don't think his speech to charlotte was spur of hte moment in any way. I believe he meant what he was saying, just it was the goaldriven future God Hand side of him. I believe it was fated for him to be there and say that at that time to set the futre motion of events into play. One of my favorite things about berserk is the whole fate and destiny thing, and Guts defying it, or is he? The Idea very well coudl have planned for Guts to get out to set futre events into motion, and he really is not ignoreing fate, but that we can save for a later conversation.

And the fact that Griffith is not longer human I woudl say would make him inhuman. But from what I gather the whole point of sacraficing something you love is to shed your remaining shreds of humanity. In volume three hen the count wants to use the black swordsman as a sacrifice they tell him it has to be someone he loves, someone that is like giving up part of your own self. Ubik says "By making such a sacrifice to demonkind you'll be able to sever any last remnants of you own humanity." That is why you do that. Yes the band of the Hawk was the most improtant thing to him. And I believe he cared alot for Guts moreso then the rest. By him doing that he is throwing away the only things that would tie him back to his old human existance.

On another note, I think Guts and Griffith are friends now by his belief of what friends are. But then again he is emotionless now, more or less, and also looks as Guts as just some worhtless sacrifice. He does say "His petty existance is beneath our notice." Also Guts hates his friggin guts. So nevermind. But if they liked eachother now they could be friends.

Post by **kvsari** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:59 pm

I enjoyed picking out familiar Apostles during the eclipse. Theres the slug, the snake guy, even the chick Apostle we first meet on reading Berserk.

Also, there are two instances of Goat Head meaning that may be the cult spawned from Slan. Our introduction with Wyald, he is in the same position as Goat Head. Was he created by Slan? He certainly is interested in women.

Conrad I beleive is the Demon King of pestilence(Or that is one of his realms). We see him manifest briefly from a pile of rats(Forgot which chapter but it was during the Retribution arc I think.

Tell me what you think. I fear I may be wrong about certain things.

Post by **NINJ4** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:50 pm

kvsari - if each of the Godhand rules certain domains like that (which does seem to be the case) I see what you see too.

As for the friendship between Guts and Griffith and the stuff that has been described around that topic, I agree with Buz and Eldo except for thing with Griffith not really meaning what he said in front of Charlotte.

It could be like Starnum said in regards to the self-deception thing, but if you presume that Griffith is not decieving himself, then Guts is really just a pawn (actually more like a queen due to Guts abilities) in his goal of attaining a kingdom and that is how Griffith treats him. Guts on the other hand (and others in the Band of the Hawk), treats Griffith like a friend.

And an extension on what Arresty said about Griffiths actions based on his future as GodHand - I don't think it's just that instance - it seemed to be implied by Idea that all his actions since birth have been based on his future as a Godhand.