Evil Genius

Great chapter, thanks EG. I have to say Miura's drawing's are just the awesomest. It's a small wonder he takes so long. Probably each drawing has tens of thousands of lines. But he's right with his way. Ultimately he'll go down in history and all the bleaches of the world will probably be forgotten... .

Brainpiercing wrote:Great chapter, thanks EG. I have to say Miura's drawing's are just the awesomest. It's a small wonder he takes so long. Probably each drawing has tens of thousands of lines. But he's right with his way. Ultimately he'll go down in history and all the bleaches of the world will probably be forgotten... .

Hey now, Bleach happens to be the, arguably, most artistically competent shounen manga serialized right now.

Not that that fact means anything when it's compared to Berserk.

Istvan wrote:

hbi2k wrote:

War Machine wrote:Looking at Sonia as the new Caska, it'll take a while for her to realize she doesn't stand a chance to be with Griffith, and until she gets that, she'll stay by his side. But using her power to sway the people seems to much for me as Griffith still needs to keep his noble image intact for her to follow him. Griffith is the one who's gotta do all the explaining about the monsters, I doubt the people would even accept someone else speaking for him.

I dunno, I think Sonia has a lot fewer illusions about being with Griffith than Caska ever did. She seems pretty content to just worship him from afar, whereas even when Caska was doing her damnedest to pretend to herself and everyone else that she just wanted to be "his sword," it was pretty obvious to the reader that she'd never be satisfied with that role.

But consider things like when Sonia was interfering with Griffith's time together with Charlotte, and when Mule castigated her for it, thought something along the lines of "I also haven't seen Griffith in a long time." I don't think she truly accepts that Griffith only sees her as a tool and that she'll never be more than that to him. Caska did. Hence the fact that Griffith's revelation to Charlotte about how he saw the Hawks didn't surprise/disturb Caska at all. She already knew it. Sonia still thinks of both herself and Griffith as being special (note her bird analogy), and feels that she should be together with Griffith.

I think in a way, Sonia knows she is a tool, but chooses to be blinded to it. It seems that she already knows she has no chance against the princess, but just clings on to whatever illusion she has of Griffith. This is a young, lost girl with no direction in life, and her void is filled by Griffith. Even if Griffith is evil incarnate, she will fight for him regardless of the evils he's done. Griffith has that effect on people. I think that is part of the reason why he was a bit taken by how Guts wanted to leave his group, because nobody has except in death. Griffith has this charismatic quality that compels people to do his bidding, no questions asked. Some of the people don't even have a reason to fight for him.

With this fight, if the demon army wins, they're accept them, in my opinion. I think the armies are stirred by what they've seen here, but I doubt there would be any hesitation to accept them once he wins. Or maybe they will be swayed by Sonia's words/thoughts. Perhaps that's her role, her 'fate' if you will.

Eldo wrote:I think that is part of the reason why he was a bit taken by how Guts wanted to leave his group

I remember Griffith's reaction when he first asked Gatts to join him at the top of a hill, to which Gatts promptly replied 'No,' and Griffith followed with, "No?"

My first interpretation of it when I first read Berserk was that it was simply an affirmation of Gatt's decision. While rereading Berserk and again after reading your post reminded me of my reinterpretation of Griffith's response; his questionable "No?" was probably more to himself then Gatts, maybe because he is the first to ever decline his invitation.

Funny how reading his post it reminded me of the same scene you described (except that it wasn't just the "no" part, but the whole "I want you" and etc.).
The same time that was almost a retoric "no?", guess he wasn't expecting less from him. Charming =) (Gay, though.... )


-.-

his questionable "No?" was probably more to himself then Gatts, maybe because he is the first to ever decline his invitation.

Forget the first to decline the invitation, Guts was the first (and last) person he ever even asked to join him. Everyone else just volunteered (like Caska).

Being asked or not, Guts was the first to openly refuse following him, and that's what matters

Istvan wrote:

his questionable "No?" was probably more to himself then Gatts, maybe because he is the first to ever decline his invitation.

Forget the first to decline the invitation, Guts was the first (and last) person he ever even asked to join him. Everyone else just volunteered (like Caska).

Even the almighty Grumbeld, Zodd, the Moon Night, etc.....all freely pledged themselves and their lives to Griffith.

Yeah, but probably out of allegiance and loyalty to the orders of power, not because of his charm. I think they'd serve the other God Hands too, if they ask of it.

Although in Zodd's silly twisted "I must find a worthy opponent!" brain, showing up out of nowhere, kicking his ass, and taking his horn probably counted as an implicit invitation. (-:

Lara Skadi wrote:Being asked or not, Guts was the first to openly refuse following him, and that's what matters

I actually think that the fact that Guts was the only person he ever asked is more significant than the refusal as such, because it helps show how from the very beginning Griffith saw Guts as being different (and more important) then anyone else he had ever met.

Istvan wrote:

his questionable "No?" was probably more to himself then Gatts, maybe because he is the first to ever decline his invitation.

Forget the first to decline the invitation, Guts was the first (and last) person he ever even asked to join him. Everyone else just volunteered (like Caska).

Actually Griffith did extend an open invitation to Rickert to rejoin him while flying off with Zodd, after the reunion between both parties on the Hill of Swords. Of course we know Rickert (or at least fairly certain) did not run off to go join Griffith's new army, thus Rickert could be considered another to have declined Griffith's invite. Along with being the only other person (besides the SK) to understand and emphasize with Gut's struggle having learned the truth about what had happened in the eclipse.

Starnum wrote:Oh, nice find. My own obsessive compulsive nature demands that I commend you for going out of your way to prove such an inane point, congratulations.

No, seriously though, that reminds me of something I'd do, so good work.

You talk as if he was your pupil O.o

Chapter 301 is on December 12th. Also nice avatar Starnumb.

The Prince wrote: Actually Griffith did extend an open invitation to Rickert to rejoin him while flying off with Zodd, after the reunion between both parties on the Hill of Swords. Of course we know Rickert (or at least fairly certain) did not run off to go join Griffith's new army, thus Rickert could be considered another to have declined Griffith's invite. Along with being the only other person (besides the SK) to understand and emphasize with Gut's struggle having learned the truth about what had happened in the eclipse.

That is a nice find, I agree with Starnum. Of course, I could be really nitpicky, and point out that he didn't so much invite Rickert in that scene as say that he wouldn't turn down Rickert's aplication, but that might be a little too picky, even for me. Oh well. At the very least Guts is the only person he actually tried to recruit, but I guess I was wrong about the invitation thing.

Lara Skadi wrote:You talk as if he was your pupil O.o

Heh, well that wasn't my intent, but a guy can dream.

DrPepperPro wrote:Chapter 301 is on December 12th. Also nice avatar Starnumb.

Heh, thanks. Also, that's kind of funny what you did with my name there, and not entirely inappropriate I guess.

Oh that was just a typo, but I left it anyways. If I left all my typos it would be impossible to read. Only my brother and 1 or 2 close friends can make any sense of it.

Istvan wrote:

The Prince wrote: Actually Griffith did extend an open invitation to Rickert to rejoin him while flying off with Zodd, after the reunion between both parties on the Hill of Swords. Of course we know Rickert (or at least fairly certain) did not run off to go join Griffith's new army, thus Rickert could be considered another to have declined Griffith's invite. Along with being the only other person (besides the SK) to understand and emphasize with Gut's struggle having learned the truth about what had happened in the eclipse.

That is a nice find, I agree with Starnum. Of course, I could be really nitpicky, and point out that he didn't so much invite Rickert in that scene as say that he wouldn't turn down Rickert's aplication, but that might be a little too picky, even for me. Oh well. At the very least Guts is the only person he actually tried to recruit, but I guess I was wrong about the invitation thing.

I think for things like this you should be picky.
Saying "if you come to me I have no reason to refuse you" is totally different from a "I want you".
Its just like you said prior to the Prince's intervention, Guts is the only person to have ever being asked by Griffith to join him.
This is a forum, we are supposed to discuss thing here. Why accept defeat (sorry if that's not the right expression, i don't know how to call it when someone voluntarily loses an argument) when you are right just because someone goes out of their way to prove a point that's wrong?

This is a forum, we are supposed to discuss thing here. Why accept defeat (sorry if that's not the right expression, i don't know how to call it when someone voluntarily loses an argument) when you are right just because someone goes out of their way to prove a point that's wrong?

Mostly because I didn't really care enough about this issue to keep debating it. I mean, my point seemed pretty obvious to me (and I thought everyone else) and when I wrote that post I wasn't really in the mood to keep the discussion going, but I left the bit about being picky in to show that in large part I didn't concede the point.

I'm better now, if you were wondering.

Rolos wrote: I think for things like this you should be picky.
Saying "if you come to me I have no reason to refuse you" is totally different from a "I want you".

This is a forum, we are supposed to discuss thing here. Why accept defeat (sorry if that's not the right expression, i don't know how to call it when someone voluntarily loses an argument) when you are right just because someone goes out of their way to prove a point that's wrong?

No one is wrong, at least until you posted, considering you're harping over what amounts to an argument over mere semantics. An argument that was never even made or contested......until your genius of a post.

I just gave an example pointing out where Griffith initiated/extended an open-invitation to Rickert, one which Rickert didn't take him up on. Are you really going to argue that this was a misinterpretation of that passage? Do you even have any idea what (or why) you are trying to get people, along with yourself, all worked up about?

Shouldn't you say that Guts was the only one who wasn't given a choice to join the Hawks? Or rather, the only one who's choice was stripped? Add to that being the first to leave the Hawks.

War Machine wrote:Shouldn't you say that Guts was the only one who wasn't given a choice to join the Hawks? Or rather, the only one who's choice was stripped? Add to that being the first to leave the Hawks.

No one really had a choice.....as they were all fated to do so.

J/K.

Good point.

The Prince wrote:

Rolos wrote: I think for things like this you should be picky.
Saying "if you come to me I have no reason to refuse you" is totally different from a "I want you".

This is a forum, we are supposed to discuss thing here. Why accept defeat (sorry if that's not the right expression, i don't know how to call it when someone voluntarily loses an argument) when you are right just because someone goes out of their way to prove a point that's wrong?

No one is wrong, at least until you posted, considering you're harping over what amounts to an argument over mere semantics. An argument that was never even made or contested......until your genius of a post.

I just gave an example pointing out where Griffith initiated/extended an open-invitation to Rickert, one which Rickert didn't take him up on. Are you really going to argue that this was a misinterpretation of that passage? Do you even have any idea what (or why) you are trying to get people, along with yourself, all worked up about?

Thanks to these discussions we achieve a better understanding of Berserk. That's why I think we should be very thorough with them.
I thought that what Itsvan was saying could be interpreted as "you are right, may be I am seeing to much into stuff that's not really that relevant". I think it is relevant, and that if he shares my opinion he should just say so.
In my opinion that doesn't count as "getting worked up", but that's just me.