Israel launches raids on Lebanon

[Albator]

I understand both parties point of view. However the accusation of Israel being warmongers doesn't make sense to me. Arab countries surrounding Israel have reasons (some of them legit) to wage war to Israel, but what could be the advantage of Israel to engage into war? Getting more territories? Not gonna happend, and considering they're trying to get out of Gaza, not likely. Showing their strength? We already know that they have the military means to answer provocations and crush surrounding countries. And war will put a blow in Israel economy too.

So initially I don't think Israel has any positive reasons to go to war, they are reacting to provocations. Should they not? Is it acceptable to get a sheel fall on your house once in a while? Is the magnitude of the answer appropriate? Are they going to pay forever for an arror that's been made 50 years ago?

This is a huge mess. I'ld rather bash Naruto.

[Brainpiercing]

You know i wasnt talking about this Libanon "war". I

Israel prepared to live peacefully? and coexist? Then why are they bombing palestinian houses and killing goverment officells.....

Just cause they dont like Hamas who won a democratic vote.

Why do they kill Hamas officials? Because those same officials finance and promote terrorism, that's why. I don't agree with the way they do it (a bullet in the head would be nicer than shooting rockets at cars), but I agree with them doing it.

And all this about a pan-islamic identity is bullshit. Ask the shiites in Iraq why they are killing sunnites and vice versa, and you'll see how much pan-islamism there is. There is no such thing as muslim territory. The land the israelis "took for themselves" was given to them by the british authorities, and it was also pretty much a strip of land nobody wanted, with the exception of Jerusalem maybe. And Jerusalem is undoubtably the cultural root of the Jewish people, and hence justifiably Jewish city. It was only the Jews that created fertile land and created a modern state. YES they had help, but it was about time. YES the state of Israel was probably born from the shame of other UN nations that they had not accepted the Jews to save them from the Holocaust. But that doesn't change the fact that Israel has every right to exist.

Some other facts: Israel is a secular state, there is freedom of religion in Israel. Millions of Palestinians used to work in Israel. Now they can't, thanks to Hamas and the likes.

The only reason that there is still conflict in the middle east is because too many people PROFIT from the conflict. Just think what all those terrorist leaders would do if there were peace? They would lose all their power. Right now they can send young people to their deaths in the name of god, who would want to lose that? And think about the Israeli hardliners who would not get any votes without conflict.

Israel was born from the spirit that the Jews would never again bow down and be annihilated. I believe they will go on fighting forever if necessary.

[Quest]

Jerusalem is not just a jewish religious site, it is an important site for the muslims as well as the christians. all parties have as much right to have access to it.

[panasonic]

And Jerusalem is undoubtably the cultural root of the Jewish people, and hence justifiably Jewish city.

going by that reasoning, the americas should be given to the native americans because that land is their cultural root

[Oro]

I just love history because it tells us that nothing lasts forever.In last 1300 years Jerusalem has fallen to christian hands couple times but muslims have always manage to get it back.I'll give Israel 40 to 60 years top before muslims get it back and kick out the jews.

[psi29a]

And Jerusalem is undoubtably the cultural root of the Jewish people, and hence justifiably Jewish city.

going by that reasoning, the americas should be given to the native americans because that land is their cultural root

And there is justification for that, as a native american descident I agree that lands that where taken from my ancestors should be given back.

However, I live in reality and realize that isn't going to be the case. We are the minority and in general the native american way of life no longer sustainable for it to be of any great concern to the rest of the world.

My children (if I so choose to have them) by law won't be considered native american, even though my wife is and I qualify. *so sad* Requirement is 1/8th, both of us are 1/8th however of different tribes. So while our children will also be 1/8th, it will be 1/16 of one tribe and another so... they loose out as far as the law is concerned.

[3rdbloodage]

Ask the shiites in Iraq why they are killing sunnites and vice versa, and you'll see how much pan-islamism there is.
.

well i think there only answer will be (because iran gave the order & usa gave the support )
in other word .. another usa shitty achievement (aka Speard the freedom & democracy) in iraq.

& by the the way the shiite is not belong by any way to islam & It's conidered paganism by muslims since it's first appear.

as for (israel) ... it's better to remember that israel was recognized as racism in Durban 's World Conference against Racism 2001.

[psi29a]

Ask the shiites in Iraq why they are killing sunnites and vice versa, and you'll see how much pan-islamism there is.
.

& by the the way the shiite is not belong by any way to islam & It's conidered paganism by muslims since it's first appear.

So we are all on the same page: source

Shi'a Islam, also Shi`ite Islam or Shi`ism (Arabic: شيعة‎ ​ transliterated: Shī‘ah Persian: شیعه‎ ​) is the second largest denomination of the religion of Islam. Shi'a Muslims adhere to what they consider to be the true teachings of the Islamic prophet Muhammad and his Ahlul Bayt (family). Thus, Shi'as reject the rule of the initial three Sunni Caliphs as Sunnis reject the Imamate of the Shi'a Imams. The singular/adjective form is Shī`ī (Arabic: شيعي.) and refers to a follower of the Ahlul Bayt and of Ali ibn Abi Talib (Imam Ali) in particular.

...

Shi'a and Sunni historians record that many Shi`as have been persecuted, intimidated, and killed, through what Shi'a consider a coup d'état against Ali's caliphate. Some Sunni scholars are known to have openly considered the Shi'a as "Kafir" (disbelievers) and condemned them to death. This was mainly fueled by the Shi'a point of view regarding Ali, Umar, and other companions and possible misunderstandings about Shia concepts such as Taqiyya and Muta.

...

According to most sources, including the US Library of Congress, present estimates indicate that approximately 85% of the world's Muslims are Sunni and approximately 15% are Shi`a. Today there are roughly 200 million Shi'as all over the world, and around three quarters of those reside in Saudia Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan and India.

As far as I'm concerned, the Shi'a and Sunni is the same kind of split that happened with Catholics and Prodistant.

To say it is paganism is a bit of a misnomer, considering that paganism is modernly referred to those collectivly non-mono-theist or more directly non-abrahamic in origin. The use of 'Kafir' when directed at Shi'as as far as I'm concerned is nothing more than intolerance and generalized hate.

[3rdbloodage]

well that's from your own point of view & i won't discuss that because it's out of the political topic.

but let's put it simply that shiite & zionsts are both a political organizations that using religon as cover to accomplish certain agendas or objectives.
Zionist use Judaism to build a country-like on palestine then the promising land that located between the 2 rivers (now thats what i call superstitions)
while shiite use islam trying to speard iran's supremacy over middle east.

[Buzkashi]

I have many Shi'a friends, to me as long as people believe in the main principles of Islam they are a Muslim at heart. But the thing with Shi'as is they reject the Sunnah of the Prophet and do not accept the rule of the First Caliphs even thoug the Prophet pretty much selected Abu Bakir as the next ruler. The Shi'as believe that Ali, the prophets nephew, should have been the first Caliph. But the prophet did not want the Caliphate to become a bloodline thing.

[Brainpiercing]

And the whole isssue, once again, is about a minor detail in the succession order of a religious movement, or church. Christianity had its wars between catholics and protestants, Islam is still having their war.

Unfortunately people just can't stop arguing about the minor details. What difference does it make that the Jews are Jews and Muslims Muslims? I was in Israel quite a few years ago, and I was still quite a small child, but I remember there were many muslims (well, in my childish eyes, arabic people) in Israel, and they could live freely like the rest of the population. I think there are still a lot of Israeli people who would employ Palestinians.

Reading things like "kick the Jews out" on this board makes me wonder about the sanity of the poster. YOU have been listening to the hatemongers.

[Sortep]

Look it's too late to reverse what was done by the U.N. however, the Israeli state is commiting atrocities left and right. We come down on the Muslims but not on the Jews? Why? Because 3 million of them died 50 years ago? In 15 years there will be no more Holocaust survivors. The Holocaust was a low point for humanity and shouldn't be forgotten, however it should NEVER act as an enabler for one people to oppress another people. And THAT is precisely how Israel spins anything they do wrong. Refute me. I leave the door open.

[Buzkashi]

And the whole isssue, once again, is about a minor detail in the succession order of a religious movement, or church. Christianity had its wars between catholics and protestants, Islam is still having their war.

Unfortunately people just can't stop arguing about the minor details. What difference does it make that the Jews are Jews and Muslims Muslims? I was in Israel quite a few years ago, and I was still quite a small child, but I remember there were many muslims (well, in my childish eyes, arabic people) in Israel, and they could live freely like the rest of the population. I think there are still a lot of Israeli people who would employ Palestinians.

Reading things like "kick the Jews out" on this board makes me wonder about the sanity of the poster. YOU have been listening to the hatemongers.

Yea you visited it when you were a child. So I could listen to you. Or I could listen to my 2 other friends one of which is catholic and the other is greek orhtodox. They both lived there for most of their lives. Neither of them are hatemongers. Neither of them are really political either. But they both can conlude from there time living there that the world would be much better if Israel was never created and that Israel is at fault for most things. They say its funny how you dont see barely any of the Israely atrocities on the TV here but you see every single suicide bomber.

[elric le tueur d'amis]

True,the first time I saw the number of palestinians civils killed each year by the army raids in Israel,I was astonished cause the news on TV always speak about the suicide bombers;
Israel (I mean the political leaders) has the possibility but not the will to make the peace,the war can goes on forever cause Israel won't ever admit a real palestinian state(giving up some territories seems too hard for those politicians).

[Sortep]

Israel are no less of terrorists than those of Hamas. The only difference is the Israelis have a public relations department.

[Brainpiercing]

Atrocities are commited both ways. You won't find any justification for anything by limiting your argument to atrocities. I'm not saying Israel is always doing the right thing. But why is is that now that the Palestinians HAVE their state, that they are still attacking Israel? Because Hamas doesn't know what to do if they are not fighting.

Israel is building a wall to separate itself from the Palestinian state, but still they are attacked through the walls. Why? What are the Palestinians fighting for?
And much worse, what are Hisbollah fighting for? The eradication of Israel? Sure, then bomb away, Olmert.

[3rdbloodage]

hamas to take back thier lands which was stolen by force , killing & terrorsm
hisbollah was originally forged for liberating lebanon from the israely occupation (which is still on shabaa & the syrian jolan)

besides if israel was really targeting hisbollah only & it's only for releasing the captured soldiers .. then way this frantic bombing against many important location like electricity & airports??
& threating by attacking the airplanes & ships that leaving lebanon whoever they are carring ?? answer = 100% rogue nation with racist & hostile acts

as for the UN ... UN seems a big fat lie ... & it's main job is givin legislation to many huge crimes .... like genocides , occupations , invasions , starvation & sufferance ... etc

& always that wow veto system ... now that's justice ... specially to remember that usa used veto more than 80 times against any project that condemn israel for it crimes .. the last one was 2 days ago ...

[Brainpiercing]

Israel cannot relinquish the golan mountains. If they did, every Israeli city would be entirely open to artillery attack from those hills. They are surrounded by hostiles, they can't give up a strategic position.

It's the same with the land that was bulldozed to build that wall. Of course if you are defending against an outside attacker you won't bulldoze your own land. You'll make sure to flatten the land outside your borders.

And I can only repeat myself, the Palestinians have their state. However, they are not even capable of keeping up their administration without the EU millions. Why are no islamic countries funding them? Of course the EU doesn't want that, but where is the real allegiance with the Palestinians? Many islamic countries are rich, they could build up a wealthy palestine easily. But they don't. The palestinians are useful in their role as victims of the so-called Israeli oppressor. YES, they are victims, but they are letting themselves be victimised. If they were to just concentrate on rebuilding, they would be much better off. The so-called muslim allies of the palestinians are hypocrites, who don't care about the palestinian people.

[Shaka Zulu]

And I can only repeat myself, the Palestinians have their state. However, they are not even capable of keeping up their administration without the EU millions. Why are no islamic countries funding them? Of course the EU doesn't want that, but where is the real allegiance with the Palestinians? Many islamic countries are rich, they could build up a wealthy palestine easily. But they don't. The palestinians are useful in their role as victims of the so-called Israeli oppressor. YES, they are victims, but they are letting themselves be victimised. If they were to just concentrate on rebuilding, they would be much better off. The so-called muslim allies of the palestinians are hypocrites, who don't care about the palestinian people.

Holy shit, hahaha damn.


Brainpercing, are you really this naive? Do you actually think Palestine has an own functioning state that can is allowed to prosper and grow? You are actually trying to say its their fault they are poor and need aide, when technically they are still fucking occupied by Izrael because Izrael governs pretty much every single detail of what they do.

You are talking about finances(which is pretty much blocked entirely by Izrael, not even some of aides from EU is not allowed in sometimes), when they cant do something a simple as a dug and spring up a well, because Izrael wants to controll the Palestine population in that way, they dont want a fertile area, which mean the population would grow to un-desireable level for them.

I dont necessary disagree you with other things you said(like ,disagree or agree, military wise, Izrael hold on to Golan heights for safety reasons. Or the provocations they get from their fellow terrorists), but are you really serious faulting the disfunctional administration on the themselves?

And you mention state like it means something. They dont have an economy that grows, because they arent allowed to by their OCCUPIERS(and this is long before it got worse and Izrael decided to arrest more or less the entire new goverment).

The EU and various muslim countries(which funds, contrary to the EU, arent allowed in much by Izrael, more or less blocked most of the times) send aide money, just so they can pay their goverment officials, security forces and every personnel needed to govern the so called state. These same workers demonstrate and barge into the Parliament, because they arent getting their salaries to feed their families, why? Because Izrael has blocked the aide money(and they wouldnt need aide money if Izrael didnt bomb the shit ouf their infrastructre, and block any attempt to govern their "state" proberly). And you are actually blaming the Palestinian goverment in this(President Mahmud Abbas has his hand tied in every way, by Izrael, and cant persuade or form a goverment with his opposition, Hamas goverment).


Just read the weekly reports by Amnesty and UN, and the resolutions against Izrael, before you dare to say why the Palestines are so poor because of their incompetence. Izrael pretty much continue to breach every imagineable thing in the resolutions, and guess which country has used it Veto a record breaking amount of 80 times every single time?

. And this is long before the Hamas gov, or they decided to play cowboys and go in and with their forces into Gaza, and now Libabon.


The fact that you missed all of this unbelieveably obvious facts are quite telling of how good the PR department of Izrael is, and what a role the media has i n this.

[psi29a]

World War 3

"This is World War III," Gingrich said. And once that's accepted, he said calls for restraint would fall away:

"Israel wouldn't leave southern Lebanon as long as there was a single missile there. I would go in and clean them all out and I would announce that any Iranian airplane trying to bring missiles to re-supply them would be shot down. This idea that we have this one-sided war where the other team gets to plan how to kill us and we get to talk, is nuts."

...

Kelly Steele, spokesman for the state party sent this e-mail:

This is classic - that Gingrich's solution to Bush's failed leadership is a different "marketing strategy" shows the true extent to which Republicans cannot be trusted to win the war on terror. Democrats believe we need a "tough and smart" strategy that makes 2006 a year of transition in Iraq and aggressively takes the fight to the terrorists, while Gingrich and Bush seek to elect a new crop of loyal rubberstamps - McGavick, Reichert, and Roulstone included - to blindly support and extend their monopoly on their "tough and dumb" conduct of the war in Iraq and the larger battle against global terrorism.

The future the world is now in the hands Americans (not to sound pompus, but the world looks at the USA because their actions have repercusions throughout the world), Republicans want to stay in power by spinning War World 3 keeping the American population in check. Democrats don't know what they want or how to achieve it, but they do want Neo-cons out of power. Any other party doesn't realistically have a chance.

@Shaka Zulu: Great response, but if you could link to resources supporting you that would be even better.

I'm sure our own personal views will come into this, but it is always good to have 3rd party resources to call on. So lets all try to not bloody each other's noses. This is a VERY real and serious subject with everyone from all over the world commenting.

[Brainpiercing]

Of course Israel is regulating money flow into Palestine, because they know if there were unhindered flow then who would benefit the most are the radicals. However, the radicals seem to get enough funding anyway, so you can question the effectiveness of the regulation.

EU millions did and do (until being suspended due to the Hamas government) arrive in Palestine. However, it's equally common knowledge that many of them landed safely in Fatah hands, while Arafat was still active, and probably go to whoever is in control now.

In the end I really can't blame the Israelis for keeping a strong hold on anything going on in Palestine. If they didn't there would be terrorists appearing under every stone. However, you are wrong to assume that Palestine is a de facto occupied country. There are still the settlements (by radical Israelis) which should go, and there are certain occupied zones after the recent incursion by the Israeli military, but the main parts of the Palestinian state are not occupied. The reason for that is quite simple. Israel would be stupid to spread their forces throughout palestine, that would be far too risky.

And now let me ask another question: How do you battle an enemy that hides behind women and children, hides inside civilian homes, and essentially takes an entire population hostage? The palestinian so-called resistance fighters do this, and the Hisbollah in Lebanon are doing the same.
All of those militants know that they are being targetted, and they still don't move away from the civilians. They know they have too much to lose without the bad press Israel gets from every dead civilian.

I really can't emphasize this enough, EVERY dead civlian is one too many. But the value of life is pretty low on both sides. The so-called resistance fighters are not fighting for their people, they are fighting for themselves, mostly. At least, their leaders are, and the poor fools who let themselves be instrumentalised in their agendas have to pay the bill - as well as the civilians.

[elric le tueur d'amis]

So,brainpiercing,Israel kills more civilians but it is ok cause it is the army who does the job and the palestinian "soldiers" are monsters cause they use suicide-bombers and hide the rest of the time ?
You say that the main parts of the Palestinian State isn't occupied but Israel already has the control of the good parts of the land (with a water access for example),some of those territories were taken by force in the last decades;
how can the palestinian people have a decent life when they have no chance to improve their situation without Israel's agreement ?

[Shaka Zulu]

The reason I reacted, or even posted in this thread is the fact you seemed to think Palestine was free to controll their state and failed to do so. Thats the only reason why felt the need to post, that what you seemed to think and imply was quite unbelieveable(that you actually dared to fault the Palestinians for it when Izrael controlls every aspect of their lifes, and this was the independent state they should be settle for and be happy with?). Just felt compelled to reply to a blatantly wrong notion.


I would post about the other things regarding Izraels terrorims, and the terrorisms of militant groups(or the the only tactics they have that works for them), if I didnt think its a never ending discussion one has had one too many times.

I agree with you in a sense of that you understand why Izrael do certain things(though not i despicable part of how they kill 10 civilians for every Izraeli civilian dead by the fucking terrorists...Is this another thing you accept and "understand"?), the conflict isnt as Black and White as many seem to want to believe(Though I dont see you criticisng Izrael for MANY MANY things that they should be for). But I'm tired of discussing what shade of grey it is nowadays, except the shockingly rash actions of Izrael in Libanon now(which this thread is about).


But you seem to missunderstand the word occupation. Its not only about having soldiers in every street corner(though Izrael have that now, and are bombing the shit out of Gaza). But its still an occupation because the Palestinian state isnt allowed to do jack shit except sit and bicker in a now bombed the fucked out Parliament house(who needs it, when all ministers are arrested, and the rest in hiding, whats needed is the vital infrastructural buildings they bombed that set Gaza back in the 70's).

You say you know now that Izrael controlls Palestines finances(but you dont Izrael for it now? When you were too eager to Blame the palestines for it earlier for not having their finances in their controll), you didnt seem to know the fact that they were limiting the enonomic(and even agricultar one too, as I said about the wells, they arent even allowed to dig for wells) resources in the previous post, and was blaming the Palestines for it. And also you were blaming the muslim countries and neighbours for not caring about Palestines, when Izrael is blocking their attempts to send aide money.

And no these money they are limiting and several times refusing to check out to the Palestinian gov, is not terrorrism money for Hizbollah or such, because those dont need to get their money from Izraeli banks, they dont have much trouble getting weapons, support and money from the likes of Syria and Iran(just like Izrael gets ten folds that from the US). But fincances they are limiting more and more is for the Palestinian people, for day to day survival, and means that the Gov can govern with. And Fatah, or the other political factions use this money for exactly that, and arent as corrupted as things were under Arafats days.


P.S Its laughable how the harshest response Izrael got to what they are doing in Libanon is "What Izrael is doing is a little unappropiate and rash" while the same time hearing news of daily deaths of their bombings, and them shooting refugee cars(quite sickening, like its wasnt bad enough that they invaded and bombed Libanon without any International uproar at all). The proportions between this and how terrorists like Hizbollah are(rightfully) condemned and criticised is quite fucking sad. Sorteps description of them being terrorists with a PR department cant ring more truer.

[Brainpiercing]

In a perfect world I could condemn every use of violence for any goal. Unfortunately, it is no perfect world, and in this world, I have to accept that Israel cannot sit still, because whatever they do, the extremists win. Whenever Israel accepted a compromise in the past the extremists wrote that on their flag as their victory. Their goal is no less than the destruction of Israel, and in the face of that, any compromise is wrong. The Palestinian Prime Ministar Haniya said no less, their goal is the rectification of the perceived injustice of 1948. However, Israel is there, and any attempt to remove it will only produce more and more bloodshed. Maybe you see Israel as the agressor, but its too late to turn back time. As it is, Israel is fighting for survival, and you may question the means, but effectively, they are defending themselves. Thats the reason that I cannot condemn their every action, even though I wish that they could get by killing only guilty people.

[Shaka Zulu]

Lets just hope you have the same understanding when it comes to others...