Evil Genius

I think the line only said that "He (Guts) isn't destined to become one of us (God Hand)." Nothing specifically says that a sacrifice can't use a behelit, but it's more than reasonable to believe that.

Istvan wrote:Also bear in mind that Caska (like Guts) has the brand and so has been half in the astral world for years now. That might influence things as well.

True, as Schierke says, because Gutts is branded and in the Interstice he is capable of influence his physical surrondings ( what explain much of all his superhuman physical feats after the eclipse and before the berserk armor).
And since Caska is branded to, we can expect something similar from her, maybe not in physical strenght but some other ability.

if i rember correctly wasn't it stated that Guts exists outside of fate because of the way he was born? so of course he would not be destined for anything, but does this mean he would not be able to use the behlit? i suspect he might make a similar transformation to skull knight at some point... although i kind of hope it does not come to that....

I don't think Gutz exists outside the realm of Causuality though. His whole life has been cause and effect!

I thought Guts already used the Behlit once. I figured his plan was to use it to summon the God-Hand, and kill them ? You know, he was killing that one Apostle, and then the apostle was almost dead, so he went to the God-Hand to offer Gutz as sacrifice to be saved, and they were like, "DENIED!" And Gutz was all, "GRIFFITH!!" and kept getting knocked back.

Maybe, he just carries it around as a momento ? A little token to remind him, "NEVER FORGET!"

And you make some good points on the magic. Farnse managed to do okay using just plain silver, so, perhaps that would be enough to give a recovered Caska edge enough to not be a waste ?

Guts was already doing some super-human stuff even before the Eclipse. Remember what he did to the Black Wolf ?

Guts did not use the behelit on the count. The count summoned the God Hand for help in his dying moments. When the count wanted to sacrifice Guts for extra strength, he was denied because the sacrifice has to be someone dear to the individual. For the count, the only person like this was his daughter, who he was unable to bring himself to sacrifice.

I do remember it's been mentioned that Guts exists outside of fate, but I don't exactly remember where.

Skull Knight mentions it as a possibility a couple of times, but I don't know that his opinion should be taken as authoritative at this point. So far, I think the facts as we know them could be interpreted either way.

I don't think there's much left to say....

Nice scans.

Yep. As Rolos points out with those images, my understanding has always been that the reason Guts is outside of fate is because he didn't die during the eclipse like he was "fated" to. It certainly wasn't being born from a corpse; Guts was essential to Idea's plan for Griffith, because he was the one who caused Griffith to forget his dream.

I will look through latter to see if i can find what i was thinking of, but im being run ragged by work atm -.-

Unless, of course, the God Hand (or possibly just Griffith, or possibly just the Idea) are playing an even deeper game. Skull Knight's basis for believing that Guts was "fated" to die in the above scan is that he was Branded, and Branded people are always immediately killed and eaten by demons (with the possible exception of Skully himself). However, Caska was Branded as well, and clearly she was intended by the GH / Femto / Idea / whoever to survive the Eclipse so that she could give birth to the fetus baby that allowed Griffith to be reborn in the real world. Therefore, a Brand doesn't have to automatically mean that you're "fated" to die any more than being shot means you're "fated" to die: it just makes it the most likely outcome.

It's entirely possible that the GH / Femto / Idea / whoever has plans for Guts post-Eclipse just as they had plans for Caska. It's unclear whether Guts is actually defying their expectations or playing right into their hands.

Or, here's another stupid theory:

It is also possible that Guts IS acting outside Fate and neither he nor Caska were "meant" to survive the Eclipse, and thus Griffith was never "meant" to be reborn into the real world but seized the opportunity to do so anyway. If that's the case, he is also currently acting outside the Idea of Evil's plan and is probably using his freaky deaky superpowers to rebel against it and/or the rest of the God Hand.

would it be safe to say that guts will turn out like the skull knight, or at least end up as something other than human? Im guessing that is where this is headed

hbi2k wrote:
Or, here's another stupid theory:

It is also possible that Guts IS acting outside Fate and neither he nor Caska were "meant" to survive the Eclipse, and thus Griffith was never "meant" to be reborn into the real world but seized the opportunity to do so anyway. If that's the case, he is also currently acting outside the Idea of Evil's plan and is probably using his freaky deaky superpowers to rebel against it and/or the rest of the God Hand.

Interesting. By using Guts baby as a vessel we might assume that the rebirth could not have occured, thus preventing Griffith from ever getting his kingdom on earth, if Guts was truly fated to have died in the eclipse.

Though I would argue that Griffith could have relied solely on the Egg Apostle to have been reborn, and that incorporating the baby-fetus may have added something into the mix with unintended consequences to what was originally fated to occur. As testament to the variation and ripple effect that Guts surviving the eclipse has generated.

Wow... some of this stuff is starting to go over my head.

My personal thoughts, is that we are being left out of one side of the picture. All we can see is the Idea of Evil at work. But... the Skull Knight is clearly working against this idea. So, perhaps, there is a whole other thing at work here ?
Perhaps the Idea's plan is exactly what Griffith is doing ? Bringing the two worlds together permanently(i think that's what the plan is, anways) and merging them completely. The Skull Knight, is fighting against this, as is Gutz now. I really don't see Guts giving up his humanity. That's perhaps always been his struggle, ever since he was that little kid, wounded, freezing, and starving, when the wolves set upon him. It's only become a bigger and bigger battle inside him, until now it's actually threatening to consume him. But... I don't think he'll ever let it win. When he has no friends, no allies, no lovers: all he has is his humanity. No... I don't think he'll ever surrender that fight.

It's war, and the only thing that matters, is who is the last man standing.

hbi2k wrote:Unless, of course, the God Hand (or possibly just Griffith, or possibly just the Idea) are playing an even deeper game. Skull Knight's basis for believing that Guts was "fated" to die in the above scan is that he was Branded, and Branded people are always immediately killed and eaten by demons (with the possible exception of Skully himself). However, Caska was Branded as well, and clearly she was intended by the GH / Femto / Idea / whoever to survive the Eclipse so that she could give birth to the fetus baby that allowed Griffith to be reborn in the real world. Therefore, a Brand doesn't have to automatically mean that you're "fated" to die any more than being shot means you're "fated" to die: it just makes it the most likely outcome.

It's entirely possible that the GH / Femto / Idea / whoever has plans for Guts post-Eclipse just as they had plans for Caska. It's unclear whether Guts is actually defying their expectations or playing right into their hands.

Agreed.
I still go with Guts still being inside fate's idea like everybody else. He just doesn't have the fate of all the other sacrificed (except from Casca and maybe SK, you never know...) and not we nor the GH knows what it is. You see, Casca and Guts did play a role in the mock eclipse, specially if you consider the butterfly effect. It seems too engineered not to be planned by IoE or whatever, like when Guts left Griffith and "the gears begun to move".
whether or not the demon-baby was necessary to Griffith's reincarnation, I don't know, but it's highly improbable that something like this concerning a God Hand hasn't been foreseem by Idea.
For me, it's something like this: you have your choices, your free will and have to face it's consequences, but that doesn't mean it wasn't written anyway, 'cause whoever planned your life didn't make them for you, he just already knew what choices you'd make. In a lower level, we ourselves do these kinds of traps with less smart beings, so I don't see how "god" in this case couldn't. IoE is like Miura himself

That's causality for you.
I could be wrong here.....but isn't causality a concept that was extrapolated into metaphysics from classical (newtonian) physics?
And aren't classical physics obsolete precisely because they took predetermination as a fact?
It's the difference between A causes B and A could cause either B, C or D.

I get idea...

Casca must have lost her conscious mind during her trauma inside the eclipse. Mind separated from body, floated away, and all that was left to the physical world was an empty bit of tofu. Guts will realize this after the Elf King tells him that in order to restore Casca's self, he must search out her wandering mind, which has now taken its own physical manifestation after the wave of light changed the world. So I predict that the next arc will mainly focus on Guts searching for Casca's lost mind, possibly with the help of Schierke's magic.

Born_Loser wrote:My personal thoughts, is that we are being left out of one side of the picture. All we can see is the Idea of Evil at work. But... the Skull Knight is clearly working against this idea.

Or at least, he THINKS he is. Remember, Skully's attack was what allowed Griffith to trigger the Big Metaphysical Splosion that fused the worlds, so it's possible and even likely THAT was planned by Griffith, too. Which raises the possibility that everything Skully does is governed by causality and will end up serving Griffemto's Big Important Master Plan.

So far, every time somebody thought they were screwing Griffemto over in some large or small way-- Guts and Casca by surviving the Eclipse, Ganishka by turning himself into Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man, Skully by attacking him with the Sword of Resonance-- it turns out they were playing right into his hands.

That's not to say that there ISN'T a butterfly effect happening and that Guts and/or someone else might NOT do something to screw up Griffemto's Big Important Master Plan eventually, but so far we have no compelling evidence that anybody's even come close.

I'd say it's more that Guts and Caska surviving the eclipse is what will eventually work against Femto. Griffith could have been reborn without the demon child, it was just added in at the last moment, by random chance.

And aren't classical physics obsolete precisely because they took predetermination as a fact?
It's the difference between A causes B and A could cause either B, C or D.

Yeah, but in the Berserk universe causality is actually (at least in theory) Idea causes A, then Idea causes B, C, and D.

DrPepperPro wrote:I'd say it's more that Guts and Caska surviving the eclipse is what will eventually work against Femto. Griffith could have been reborn without the demon child, it was just added in at the last moment, by random chance.

Yep, and quite possibly (based on Griffith's thoughts during the hill of swords) this could eventually turn out to be a big problem. We'll have to see.

So far, every time somebody thought they were screwing Griffemto over in some large or small way-- Guts and Casca by surviving the Eclipse, Ganishka by turning himself into Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man, Skully by attacking him with the Sword of Resonance-- it turns out they were playing right into his hands.

I can't think of anyone frustrating him in anything big (yet), but it's possible that Guts and Co. succeeding in rescuing Schierke from the forest was at least a small set-back for Griffith. After all, he was trying to kill the witches because they were a threat (even if only a very small one) to him...

tsubaimomo wrote:I get idea...

Casca must have lost her conscious mind during her trauma inside the eclipse. Mind separated from body, floated away, and all that was left to the physical world was an empty bit of tofu. Guts will realize this after the Elf King tells him that in order to restore Casca's self, he must search out her wandering mind, which has now taken its own physical manifestation after the wave of light changed the world. So I predict that the next arc will mainly focus on Guts searching for Casca's lost mind, possibly with the help of Schierke's magic.

Duude, what if that one kid is the manifestation of Caska's mind?

hbi2k wrote:

Born_Loser wrote:My personal thoughts, is that we are being left out of one side of the picture. All we can see is the Idea of Evil at work. But... the Skull Knight is clearly working against this idea.

Or at least, he THINKS he is. Remember, Skully's attack was what allowed Griffith to trigger the Big Metaphysical Splosion that fused the worlds, so it's possible and even likely THAT was planned by Griffith, too. Which raises the possibility that everything Skully does is governed by causality and will end up serving Griffemto's Big Important Master Plan.

So far, every time somebody thought they were screwing Griffemto over in some large or small way-- Guts and Casca by surviving the Eclipse, Ganishka by turning himself into Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man, Skully by attacking him with the Sword of Resonance-- it turns out they were playing right into his hands.

That's not to say that there ISN'T a butterfly effect happening and that Guts and/or someone else might NOT do something to screw up Griffemto's Big Important Master Plan eventually, but so far we have no compelling evidence that anybody's even come close.

You raise very many good points here. But I was wondering. The Skull Knight was very close friends with that old witch(i forget her name). I was wondering, perhaps, if the natural spirits of the world, the ones that Scherike and the old crone served are somehow at work to try and thwart the Idea ? Perhaps they also risk being consumed by the idea ?

But, also to add to your points, is that Griffith, and Zodd, have allowed Gutz and Caska to live. Zodd could basically have killed Guts during many of their encounters, and Griffith could have him killed at will. But... I think back to when Gutz first went up against Zodd, and Zodd lets him live. He let him live because of his importance to Griffith, and the fulfillment of the Idea's plan... So, I think you are really onto something here. Even the premise of the whole thing it clearly states, "Is the destiny of man controlled by some trancedental entity or law ? Is it the Hand of God hovering above ? One thing is clear, man truly has no control, even over his own will So, while Guts might have the idea in his head that he's making his own fate, control of his own will, even fighting to maintain that belief, he is still stuck being part of that plan ?

I think a lot about Guts sword. I remember the manga mentioning something about his sword developing it's own aura from cutting through spiritual and magical beings so much. It's basically stained with evil: can he use a sword stained with evil to defeat evil ? I think back to the game Bushido Blade, when you get to the final guy, he says, "Your sword is stained with the blood of your friends and companions. Do you think you can use it against me ?"

He couldn't use it against Griffith, or any of the God Hand before.

Now, as if this reponse wasn't long enough... I think perhaps, that all the above is the whole point of Guts struggle. To challenge fate. So, I guess the question is: can man truly rise above his fate if he is strong enough ? Can Gutz break the control the Idea has over him and gain control of his destiny ? There really are people like that in this world. People with spinal cord injuries who never give up and a few of them have managed to get out of their chairs and beds. Cancer victims(for lack of a better word) who don't resign to their fate and still do things to keep the taste of life flowing through their veins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRQEdYf3rd8

But, also to add to your points, is that Griffith, and Zodd, have allowed Gutz and Caska to live. Zodd could basically have killed Guts during many of their encounters, and Griffith could have him killed at will. But... I think back to when Gutz first went up against Zodd, and Zodd lets him live. He let him live because of his importance to Griffith, and the fulfillment of the Idea's plan... So, I think you are really onto something here. Even the premise of the whole thing it clearly states, "Is the destiny of man controlled by some trancedental entity or law ? Is it the Hand of God hovering above ? One thing is clear, man truly has no control, even over his own will So, while Guts might have the idea in his head that he's making his own fate, control of his own will, even fighting to maintain that belief, he is still stuck being part of that plan ?

I don't think Zodd ever felt that Gutts was important to any masterplan, other than being destined to die (like everyone else)during the eclipse as he forewarned. And at this point respects Guts for his strength and perservance, but wouldn't hesitate killing Guts if he needed to.

Whether or not Gutts denied a destined fate to die during the eclipse, thus putting him outside of following a predetermined path, has been an ongoing conversation in threads like these from the beginning. There is a very important discussion between the SK and Guts during an encounter on the road to Albion, that addresses this very conundrum.

Personally I would like to think Miura in the end will use Guts plight to symbolize that man in fact has the ability to control his own destiny. Because Berserk is laden with religious symbolism (mainly christianic) perhaps in the end Guts will serve as some kind of allegory for which man triumphs over God.

The Prince wrote:

But, also to add to your points, is that Griffith, and Zodd, have allowed Gutz and Caska to live. Zodd could basically have killed Guts during many of their encounters, and Griffith could have him killed at will. But... I think back to when Gutz first went up against Zodd, and Zodd lets him live. He let him live because of his importance to Griffith, and the fulfillment of the Idea's plan... So, I think you are really onto something here. Even the premise of the whole thing it clearly states, "Is the destiny of man controlled by some trancedental entity or law ? Is it the Hand of God hovering above ? One thing is clear, man truly has no control, even over his own will So, while Guts might have the idea in his head that he's making his own fate, control of his own will, even fighting to maintain that belief, he is still stuck being part of that plan ?

I don't think Zodd ever felt that Gutts was important to any masterplan, other than being destined to die (like everyone else)during the eclipse as he forewarned. And at this point respects Guts for his strength and perservance, but wouldn't hesitate killing Guts if he needed to.

Whether or not Gutts denied a destined fate to die during the eclipse, thus putting him outside of following a predetermined path, has been an ongoing conversation in threads like these from the beginning. There is a very important discussion between the SK and Guts during an encounter on the road to Albion, that addresses this very conundrum.

Personally I would like to think Miura in the end will use Guts plight to symbolize that man in fact has the ability to control his own destiny. Because Berserk is laden with religious symbolism (mainly christianic) perhaps in the end Guts will serve as some kind of allegory for which man triumphs over God.

Unless it was god's plan to create a being strong enough to overpower him...or at least be considered and equal, in which case, his plan triumphs :p