Evil Genius

The Prince wrote:

MournfulWoods wrote:Except if the beast is an alter effect of the brand/curse. Gut's contact with the underworld might have made his darker aspects come into the form of a beast. But I prefer to think it's the spiritual form of his hatred.

Isn't that beast everything the Nine tail fox should have been ? a psychological and philosophical item of the story. A fitting addition to the struggling of Guts.

Huh?

I was answering to Seraph. He said He thinks Guts and the beast are one. I quite agree but It could also be that the beast has materialized from the spiritual world because of Gut's brand/curse, or because of his continual contact with the spiritual world. the beast could be a thing that came from the spiritual world and took root in guts's hatred. I don't know.

And the nine tail demon was a comparison to the inner beast of Naruto. I just meant that Gut's beast fits in the story perfectly in a character development point of view. it's a fitting addition to the themes of struggling.

MournfulWoods wrote: I was answering to Seraph. He said He thinks Guts and the beast are one. I quite agree but It could also be that the beast has materialized from the spiritual world because of Gut's brand/curse, or because of his continual contact with the spiritual world. the beast could be a thing that came from the spiritual world and took root in guts's hatred. I don't know.

It's been mentioned several times in this thread already that the beast is most likely not a spirit because the first time it shows up is in Godo's cave, a place where evil spirits cannot enter.

Sorry I had not gone through the whole thread, been away from the forum a little. But I'm not talking about a spirit. I wondered if the contact with the underworld might have given gut's hatred a form of his own. Without being a spirit, couldn't it be the hatred that has taken....shape (by coming in contact with the spiritual form) ? Couldn't it have given an identity of it's own to the hatred ?

Or am I going all SarahofBorg in this topic ?

MournfulWoods wrote:Or am I going all SarahofBorg in this topic ?

Now that brings back memories, she finally stopped IMing me about 8 months ago.


You know, the dog can be more metaphorical, in a sense that it is Guts. The little dog that Gambino would rather play with than pay attention to Guts was enough of an effect to cause Guts to lose sleep over it. I'm not so sure that the 'dog' is a separate entity at all or that it just 'kinda' popped into existence. The armour has definently let loose Guts' inhibitions and let his personality run rampant.

I agree with Psi.....in the end its all about psychology.

Psi, have I ever told you that I admire you?
Dude, your avatar rules, you always back up your posts with wiki (or the likes) information and the way you write is I dont know.....pro-like......

You rule man, you rule......

Dont mind me, I kinda feel down right now.....never mind.

Ps: fngbiornbrnhbuijntrbnjtrfbnhnrbfujnbhgrnbronbonbonrfnorfnirfbnsbnsdbvnonb.....*sob*........bla.....*sits down in a corner and feels even more depressed*

Ps2: before i get banned for spamming...... I always wondered....Did ever Shierke state that Griffith was the hawk of darkness? Yes....no.....any answer would be appreciated....ok...may be not......

From what I've seen, the beast and guts were at one time whole, and although I never recall it saying, it most likely originated at the eclipse, and really seems to be something psychological like psi said. Sort've like batman's thing with bats, and the mental imagery that is seen in the movies. The beast has apparently personified, and began to struggle against Guts due to the fact that he's angry with his course, considers his team dead weight, whatever. The game really points to that shit a lot more, and I think even has some stuff that expands upon that, which I'm pretty sure the manga doesn't include.

Rolos wrote:I agree with Psi.....in the end its all about psychology.

Psi, have I ever told you that I admire you?
Dude, your avatar rules, you always back up your posts with wiki (or the likes) information and the way you write is I dont know.....pro-like......

You rule man, you rule......

Dont mind me, I kinda feel down right now.....never mind.

Ps: fngbiornbrnhbuijntrbnjtrfbnhnrbfujnbhgrnbronbonbonrfnorfnirfbnsbnsdbvnonb.....*sob*........bla.....*sits down in a corner and feels even more depressed*

Cute.

I agree, psi knows his shit, and we're all in his debt.......


BTW....Who's this Sarah Borg chick that keeps being brought up?
Is she hot or something?

Ps2: before i get banned for spamming...... I always wondered....Did ever Shierke state that Griffith was the hawk of darkness? Yes....no.....any answer would be appreciated....ok...may be not

......

I believe this is confirmed by Schierke during a discussion with Flora, in the scene right before she hands out the enchanted weapons to Gut's crew, while staying overnight in Flora's treehouse.

Also when she transfered her astral form into a bird who flew over Griffith' armies camp I think she said something about the Hawk of Darkness there too.

I'm with Psi on the fact that the beast is a manifestation of Guts' repressed rage. It appears only once Guts starts caring for Caska and it really takes form when Guts wears the berserker's armor. He couldn't just go and wantonly slaughter demons since he had someone to care for. Since the armor feeds negative emotions into Guts, as well as making Guts see everyone as enemies, it makes sense that it would allow Guts to act upon the rage and hatred he's repressed.

As for the dark hawk, it's got to be Griffith. Remember at the eclipse? "Femto, wings of darkness." Even though he looks like the girly white haired boy in Midland, his true form has dark, but not necessarily black, wings.

Ok, thats what I supposed on my own, my question was if Shiercke ever said that...... here is the translation i have:

Shiercke (after seeing Griffith s camp through the eyes of a bird): We must make use of the falcon (hawk) of Darkness..........The King of the blind white sheep is the master of the black sheep with a burden of sins...................He is the one who shalll bring true darkness to the world.

She never actually said that Griffith is the hawk of darkness (at least in the translation i have), we are just assuming she meant that.

Pd: About my previous post.....sorry, last night i was a little drunk......my first time drinking alone you know.......it sucked.

Rolos wrote:Ok, thats what I supposed on my own, my question was if Shiercke ever said that...... here is the translation i have:

Shiercke (after seeing Griffith s camp through the eyes of a bird): We must make use of the falcon (hawk) of Darkness..........The King of the blind white sheep is the master of the black sheep with a burden of sins...................He is the one who shalll bring true darkness to the world.

She never actually said that Griffith is the hawk of darkness (at least in the translation i have), we are just assuming she meant that.

Pd: About my previous post.....sorry, last night i was a little drunk......my first time drinking alone you know.......it sucked.

Hey, lush.....you seem to be one of those melancholy kind of drunks.

BTW.... Even if it were just in order to humor a brother, I'm deeply offended you didn't care to take the time to look into "this" scene in which I mentioned, in my reply to your question.

Hey, it took me a while to find, and I even stayed up past my bed-time to find it!

Yours truely wrote:I believe this is confirmed by Schierke during a discussion with Flora, in the scene right before she hands out the enchanted weapons to Gut's crew, while staying overnight in Flora's treehouse.

Obviously that scene is completely different from the one, which you took that quote from. Yet in this scene, assuming Schierk is credible, she practically confirms/insinuates Griffith directly of being the Hawk of Darkness.



So here....Schierke DOES pretty much confirm that shit, w/ Flora apparently in agreement.



NOW, THE Million Dollar Question(s) THEN HAS TO BE.........

If Griffith is NOT the White-Hawk, but in fact the Hawk of Darkness to lead the blind sheep;
THEN WHO the HEll is the WhiteHawk....and all those damn sheep he's supposed lead out to pasture?

HMMMMM????

The Prince wrote:
If Griffith is NOT the White-Hawk, but in fact the Hawk of Darkness to lead the blind sheep;
THEN WHO the HEll is the WhiteHawk....and all those damn sheep he's supposed lead out to pasture?

HMMMMM????

puck.

Who else could there be? Puck is above the god hand

other than that, my next guess would be Gutts... I dunno though... Puck far exceeds expectations right now.

I too think that the white Hawk of the story has to be Guts. It's kinda ironic, but that is one of the main appeals (at least for me) of Berserk. Noone is just good or evil without reasons. The shining person with Charisma and a hellova lot followers, Griffith, praised as the white Hawk who will save Midland, is in fact the Hawk of Darkness. And our beloved main hero, covered in black and most times in blood, at times showing no emotion at all besides an urge to kill, yet having followers of his own but not by Charsima but by Deeds, is in fact the Hawk of Light.

Him or Reta-girl, um, Caska I mean.

Him or Reta-girl, um, Caska I mean.

You forgot Isidoro, maybe Gutts purpose in the story is simply to train the true White Hawk.

This probably deserves to go in the stupid theory thread, doesn't it?

Seriously, of course if Griffith is the Hawk of Darkness Guts has to be the Hawk of Light. They're the two main characters.

Guts very well might be the black hawk, what he is doing might have some hidden repercussions, or might not be what is actually best for humanity. Griffith could very well be what he leads the reader to believe without eclipse insight, the savior of humanity, demon army or not.

Yeah I've been thinking that too. If Griffith ends up being a ruler that provides his people happiness, is he still evil? He's been treating his human crew well so far. Is Guts evil when he tries to stop Griffith, the hero who's saving Midland from the Kushan ?

Also, has the Godhand got something to do from the backscenes with the kushans and overall «evil» of the world ? If yes, Griffith also is the cause of this evil. I guess we'll learn about that only once Griffith's real plans are shown.

FightClub wrote:From what I've seen, the beast and guts were at one time whole, and although I never recall it saying, it most likely originated at the eclipse, and really seems to be something psychological like psi said. Sort've like batman's thing with bats, and the mental imagery that is seen in the movies. The beast has apparently personified, and began to struggle against Guts due to the fact that he's angry with his course, considers his team dead weight, whatever. The game really points to that shit a lot more, and I think even has some stuff that expands upon that, which I'm pretty sure the manga doesn't include.

Damn I wish I could play the game now even more.

Would you (or anyone else who has played through the ps2 game for that matter) be willing to elaborate some, regarding some of those issues you are referring that were expanded upon in the game ?

FightClub wrote:Guts very well might be the black hawk, what he is doing might have some hidden repercussions, or might not be what is actually best for humanity. Griffith could very well be what he leads the reader to believe without eclipse insight, the savior of humanity, demon army or not.

I believe you are among the"blind-sheep" the prophecies in the story refer to.....J/K


A lot of discussion has been dealt regarding Griffith's true nature and intentions and Guts' role in regards to the legacy he'll have left behind.

Can't think of any hidden repercussions, that would be bad for man, in waisting a bunch of apostles. IMO can't imagine him being the hawk of darkness, with nothing in the book to suggest this from the reader POV. Off course, at least early on, this was a belief of Fafnese and co.

In regards to Giffith, it seemed were all in ageement that he is a munipulative, evil, conciousless P.O.S!

Also, has the Godhand got something to do from the backscenes with the kushans and overall «evil» of the world ? If yes, Griffith also is the cause of this evil. I guess we'll learn about that only once Griffith's real plans are shown.

Not the God's Hand, the one responsible is Idea. Idea is the reason for all the suffering and bad stuff that occurs in the world. That's its job, and reason for being. It's almost certain the Kushan Emperor was made an Apostle solely to give Griffith a foe to fight against in order to leverage that into becoming a king.

Yeah I've been thinking that too. If Griffith ends up being a ruler that provides his people happiness, is he still evil? He's been treating his human crew well so far.

Yes, he is still evil. It is entirely possible for evil people to carry out "good" actions. This in no way makes them not evil. Please note (as has been discussed in another thread recently) Griffith is still deliberately sending the souls of the humans around him to hell. Not exactly the actions of a good person.

MournfulWoods wrote:
Also, has the Godhand got something to do from the backscenes with the kushans and overall «evil» of the world ? If yes, Griffith also is the cause of this evil. I guess we'll learn about that only once Griffith's real plans are shown.

Its in regards to the conversation with the barkeep at the beginning of the anime.......

I realize the conversation in the anime is not in the manga, nor historically accurate, in the Beserk universe. But I believe provided some insight into what Miura's vision (intent) of a kingdom ruled by Griffith.

.... 120 seconds in
http://www.veoh.com/static/flash/player ... &version=4

Edit....sorry, I'll try to find the english dub

Of course, there is nothing in the prophecy that stops the Black Hawk and the White Hawk from being the same person. It could very well be that Griffith as Femto is the Black Hawk, but when he gets 'born again' (sorry, bad phrasing) he becomes the White Hawk, and Gutts has nothing to do with the prophecy. Remember, Gutts was born to a corpse and he's branded. Right now, he is living outside of Fate. Therefore, he can not take part in a prophecy. If anything, he is working against this prophecy when he tries to get his revenge on Griffith.
This idea is probably better suited for the Stupid Theories thread...

madonnalal wrote:Of course, there is nothing in the prophecy that stops the Black Hawk and the White Hawk from being the same person. It could very well be that Griffith as Femto is the Black Hawk, but when he gets 'born again' (sorry, bad phrasing) he becomes the White Hawk, and Gutts has nothing to do with the prophecy. Remember, Gutts was born to a corpse and he's branded. Right now, he is living outside of Fate. Therefore, he can not take part in a prophecy. If anything, he is working against this prophecy when he tries to get his revenge on Griffith.
This idea is probably better suited for the Stupid Theories thread...

Whoever said that surviving the eclipse and living outside of "fate" puts Guts outside of any prophecy? Being outside of fate is only suggested in the story, as a concept, not an established fact.

Who's to say that living outside of "fate" was not Gut's true destiny(fate) to begin with, along with the White Hawk? Because if "fate" was truely "the way it is," then in theory, Guts would have died in the eclipse.

Also its important to consider the whole "Butterfly effect" thing. For if Guts surviving the eclipse was NOT supposed to happen......or is his true destiny, then Guts' mere existence after the eclipse (or even birth) would put anything "fate- related" from that moment on on its head.

THEREFORE.....IMO Guts is in fact the White Hawk because that's the way it is.....IMO

As I've said a few times before (we had this discussion a few times already), I see Gatts outside the prophecy as some kind of wild card for Idea. It helped Griffith, but it wasn't tottaly under it's control. Meaning he's not in the stream of fate, at least not totally...

Khelegond wrote:As I've said a few times before (we had this discussion a few times already), I see Gatts outside the prophecy as some kind of wild card for Idea. It helped Griffith, but it wasn't tottaly under it's control. Meaning he's not in the stream of fate, at least not totally...

Whereas my interpretation has always been that Guts originally was within fate, but isn't anymore. His being born from a corpse and surviving was part of Idea's plan, as was everything up to the eclipse. Indeed, he was crucial to Idea's plan, since he was the cause of the collapse of Griffith's dream. He was simply supposed to die in the eclipse, and surviving that has put him "outside of fate." Since then, yes he's had a "butterfly effect" and his presence is slowly moving things farther and farther out of Idea's planned scenerio, although the effect is still minor at this point. That's my take, anyway.

The Prince wrote:Damn I wish I could play the game now even more.

Would you (or anyone else who has played through the ps2 game for that matter) be willing to elaborate some, regarding some of those issues you are referring that were expanded upon in the game ?

I'll try to find a wiki for you or something, and edit my post when I find it, sorry about the delay.