Evil Genius

God_Hand_Hater07 wrote:

thesyndrome wrote: he had been travelling with puck for almost 2 years,

He had been travelling with Puck for two years,its true, but even before that he had been staying at Goto's for years at a time to train, Gatts had a strong bond with Goto before he met puck, and having most of the people he cared about stripped away(eclips), would probably make you value the ones you had left a lot more.

From what I saw, Gatts did actually the oposite. He turned down his 'humanity', meaning he got detached from everything. He was almost evil, one might say. He was, obviously, protecting himself - and kinda protecting the others, since he's branded.

Khelegond wrote:

God_Hand_Hater07 wrote:

thesyndrome wrote: he had been travelling with puck for almost 2 years,

He had been travelling with Puck for two years,its true, but even before that he had been staying at Goto's for years at a time to train, Gatts had a strong bond with Goto before he met puck, and having most of the people he cared about stripped away(eclips), would probably make you value the ones you had left a lot more.

From what I saw, Gatts did actually the oposite. He turned down his 'humanity', meaning he got detached from everything. He was almost evil, one might say. He was, obviously, protecting himself - and kinda protecting the others, since he's branded.

I kind of agree with God_Hand_Hater07 and Khelegond at the same time. I believe that Goto and Guts are united by common interests with swords, and having spend some time there to train they have developed some type of bond of friendship between them. After the eclipse, Guts' only surviving friends is Goto, Ricket, and Casca. He couldn't tell Ricket, because of his immense respect and dedication to Griffith that Guts didn't want to shatter (just yet), and also because he was too young to accept it. Casca was basically a retard. That leaves Goto.

Yes, Guts became detached after the eclipse, but that doesn't mean he would treat his remaining surviving friends like dirt. He didn't care about other how other people lived or die, but he has shed a tear or two in the case of the Count's daughter. You could almost argue that Guts acted the way he did because he was scared of accepting new friends and opening up (Puck, as an example), because he might get hurt in the process. He wasn't completely detached from everything; he still had feelings for Casca, and friendship with Ricket and Goto. He left them in order to escape the responsibility of taking care of Casca, and to get revenge.

Eldo wrote:He didn't care about other how other people lived or die, but he has shed a tear or two in the case of the Count's daughter.

For added emphasis there because Miura clearly shows that Guts still has compassion and regrets his actions. With Guts' hand draped over his mouth and his tears moves through his fingers. This was after the eclipse happened, but what made him break down like that was the combination of his childhood, the royal child he ran through following Griffith's order, and subsequent interactions that has forced his hands to kill children.

I wouldn't say he has turned off his humanity, but he does seem value the lives of the 'innocent' more so than older people. Look at Richert, Goto's Grand-Daugher ??, Retarded Casca, Isidoro, Shrieke, two-elves. If anything, he would protect them by any means necessary which is part of his value system.

dont really know why im bringing this up but it struck me today, as i was re-rereading my newly purchased berserk 13, that during the time were griffith is raping(?) caska that he uses the same position that you see in the carma sutra book that guts looks at when he is being aseked to murder adonis, i have no idea why i just suddenly made this connection, or if everyone else had already noticed this, but i thought it would make an interesting comment/conversation piece.

right. my bad.

you are rigth. *laugtes to tears* I guess Griffith really did study that book.

but really *whiping tears away* I am new here but since I found this topic I have been reading the hole dam thing. took me a long time I can say. you all have really good points about the things you have talked about, but I do have some questions.

1. you all have been talking about how the Merry party of guts are as you say is useless, but like guts says after the troll mission
"Companions, huh.....
who would`ve thought.... I`d ever have them again..." this, to me says that he needs to have them there. if to nothing else keep him sane. and they do help him in more ways than one. guts have come a long way in development in person.

2. I was woundering have any of you noted how simelar Roderick has in the three last chapters, gotten to Judeau? the same smile, the same starre? and most of all they have the same way of speaking like they can sorta starre in to your soul and say just what to say at the rigth time?

Caska had only one sun didn't she? What I understood is that her sun was caught by the egg of the emperor, the behelit apostile, and her sun has become the new Griffith. So it would be like Guts had the sun with her, but he was "contaminated" when Griffith (or better Gatsu) rapped her. The problem is, someway there is another children on c238, an it's probabily sun of Guts and Caska. I can't understand, Caska had 2 children? Or the baby used by the Egg of the Emperor wasn't Caska's sun? Or that one isn't their sun anyway?

Arcandus wrote:Caska had only one sun didn't she? What I understood is that her sun was caught by the egg of the emperor, the behelit apostile, and her sun has become the new Griffith. So it would be like Guts had the sun with her, but he was "contaminated" when Griffith (or better Gatsu) rapped her. The problem is, someway there is another children on c238, an it's probabily sun of Guts and Caska. I can't understand, Caska had 2 children? Or the baby used by the Egg of the Emperor wasn't Caska's sun? Or that one isn't their sun anyway?

First off, nothing about the child on the beach has been explained. It is speculation that it might be Guts and Caska's child. Caska only had the one son, but (so the theory goes) after the body went to form Griffith's new form, the soul of that child might have somehow come back to form that child on the beach. Or, alternatively, the child might be something totally different, and not related to them at all. We just don't know yet.

There is one thing that just hit me while re-reading Berserk. It's an interesting plothole, actually: Why didn't Skullknight just kill Griffith while he was in human form, during golden age? Skullknight foresaw everything that was about to happen to Guts & co, and he knew that it was about Griffith. Sk's obvious goal seems to be crippling or destroying godhand, so distrupting flow of fate seems like a good strategy, much better than attacking them directly. Alternatively he could have even saved Griffith from his tormentors before they managed to completely fuck him up.

The only explanation that I see is that SK wanted to kill Void at all cost, so he needed eclipse to get a chance (althought normal Apostle sacrifice would probably do the job, too.

42ndEndOfTheWorld wrote:There is one thing that just hit me while re-reading Berserk. It's an interesting plothole, actually: Why didn't Skullknight just kill Griffith while he was in human form, during golden age? Skullknight foresaw everything that was about to happen to Guts & co, and he knew that it was about Griffith. Sk's obvious goal seems to be crippling or destroying godhand, so distrupting flow of fate seems like a good strategy, much better than attacking them directly. Alternatively he could have even saved Griffith from his tormentors before they managed to completely fuck him up.

Hm, this is an interesting theory. Just to offer some other theories out there though:

Maybe Skull Knight didn't know it was Griffith who had the behelit, so he couldn't kill him there and then. As with Zodd, he only recognised that Griffith would become a God Hand after seeing the Behelit. Or maybe Skull Knight can't intervene with fate; what's written is set in stone. He might have also tried before to stop the eclipse with the previous members, If Gaiseric is indeed Skull Knight.

I like this theory about Skull Knight being manipulative for his own gains, though.

Eldo wrote:
Hm, this is an interesting theory. Just to offer some other theories out there though:

Maybe Skull Knight didn't know it was Griffith who had the behelit, so he couldn't kill him there and then.

Maybe. However he did know that Gut's is one to be sacrificed. He told Gut's the day after he left Griffith, that "all wheels have been set in motion". Even if he wasn't able to sense that Griffith is the one who will sacrifice Guts, it's not really hard to put two and two together.

Eldo wrote:As with Zodd, he only recognised that Griffith would become a God Hand after seeing the Behelit. Or maybe Skull Knight can't intervene with fate; what's written is set in stone. He might have also tried before to stop the eclipse with the previous members, If Gaiseric is indeed Skull Knight.

Yes, but one of the reasons why what's written is set is stone is that no one who knows that Griffith is future Godhand (other Godhands and Apostles that recognize the behelit) wants to kill him, and no one who would want to kill him (those who want to disrupt GH plans) knows. Causality means that action B follows inevitably from past action A (or several past actions) , not that one action is absolutely inevitable. In other words there must be a REASON why Griffith becoming Godhand is inevitable, the whole world must be shaped in one particular way, and the very existence of someone as powerful as SK with knowledge, will and power to kill him means that Idea of Evil has seriously failed in forming the world... or that we have a plot hole.

I don't know why is that so hard to assume that there are plot holes in Berserk. Yes, berserk is supercool and all, but even geniuses like Miura sometimes make mistakes. Almost all movies and books have small plot holes here and there when closely examined and so what.

Eldo wrote:I like this theory about Skull Knight being manipulative for his own gains, though.

It's not so much about being manipulative, it's more about using optimal strategy.

But when I think a bit more about it all there are some interesting possibilities:

(1) perhaps interrupting flow of fate by force would be even worse than leaving it be. Maybe SK have killed future godhand member once and it resulted in disaster. Maybe that's the reason why we have 216 year gap between Gaiseric kingdom and first godhand? (i know , I know stupid theories)

(2)Maybe apostles kept Skullknight busy all the time so he could not reach Griffith. During the eclipse all apostles came inside the vortex , only Zod left so SK was able to come close. (my friend suggested this)

(3)Maybe SK doesn't care about destroying godhand as a whole and only wants to kill Void for personal reasons

(4) Maybe Skullknight knows something that even Godhand doesn't. Griffith is right now using Casca's child in order to exist at mortal plane. This might result in some strange twists including Griffith's body betraying Godhands. Maybe Skullknight knows that Griffith will eventually destroy Godhand? (also suggested by my friend)

An alternative theory might be that allowing Femto to be born is the best way to try to destroy the God's Hand. If SK had killed Griffith in advance, presumably Idea would have just started on the path to create another one. Sooner or later, if this kept up, SK would have missed one and a Femto would have been born when he wasn't looking. Things would have been delayed a bit, but not really changed, and what's a delay to a bunch of immortals? Alternatively, by allowing Femto to be born, he gets a chance to attack the God's Hand directly, or if this fails try to mess with their plans in other ways (such as saving Guts and Caska). Possibly also, allowing Griffith to be born makes the God's Hand themselves more vulnerable. Think about it, the astral world and human world are becoming closer together. We've already seen (Slann in the cave) that the God's Hand are starting to be able to reach directly into the human world. Will the reverse start to be true as well? If so that might make it a lot easier to get to, and hence kill, the God's Hand.

Just some thoughts I had, but there really could be any number of reasons for SK to allow Griffith to become Femto instead of killing him off early.

Istvan wrote:An alternative theory might be that allowing Femto to be born is the best way to try to destroy the God's Hand. If SK had killed Griffith in advance, presumably Idea would have just started on the path to create another one. Sooner or later, if this kept up, SK would have missed one and a Femto would have been born when he wasn't looking. Things would have been delayed a bit, but not really changed, and what's a delay to a bunch of immortals? Alternatively, by allowing Femto to be born, he gets a chance to attack the God's Hand directly, or if this fails try to mess with their plans in other ways (such as saving Guts and Caska). Possibly also, allowing Griffith to be born makes the God's Hand themselves more vulnerable. Think about it, the astral world and human world are becoming closer together. We've already seen (Slann in the cave) that the God's Hand are starting to be able to reach directly into the human world. Will the reverse start to be true as well? If so that might make it a lot easier to get to, and hence kill, the God's Hand.

Just some thoughts I had, but there really could be any number of reasons for SK to allow Griffith to become Femto instead of killing him off early.

yeah as I wrote earlier

(4) Maybe Skullknight knows something that even Godhand doesn't. Griffith is right now using Casca's child in order to exist at mortal plane. This might result in some strange twists including Griffith's body betraying Godhands. Maybe Skullknight knows that Griffith will eventually destroy Godhand? (also suggested by my friend)

However I really think that Miura should give his explanation as soon as possible. I never seen SK neither regretting for not killing Griffith nor mentioning any of that. I guess that we will have to just wait and see.

42ndEndOfTheWorld wrote:

Istvan wrote:An alternative theory might be that allowing Femto to be born is the best way to try to destroy the God's Hand. If SK had killed Griffith in advance, presumably Idea would have just started on the path to create another one. Sooner or later, if this kept up, SK would have missed one and a Femto would have been born when he wasn't looking. Things would have been delayed a bit, but not really changed, and what's a delay to a bunch of immortals? Alternatively, by allowing Femto to be born, he gets a chance to attack the God's Hand directly, or if this fails try to mess with their plans in other ways (such as saving Guts and Caska). Possibly also, allowing Griffith to be born makes the God's Hand themselves more vulnerable. Think about it, the astral world and human world are becoming closer together. We've already seen (Slann in the cave) that the God's Hand are starting to be able to reach directly into the human world. Will the reverse start to be true as well? If so that might make it a lot easier to get to, and hence kill, the God's Hand.

Just some thoughts I had, but there really could be any number of reasons for SK to allow Griffith to become Femto instead of killing him off early.

yeah as I wrote earlier

(4) Maybe Skullknight knows something that even Godhand doesn't. Griffith is right now using Casca's child in order to exist at mortal plane. This might result in some strange twists including Griffith's body betraying Godhands. Maybe Skullknight knows that Griffith will eventually destroy Godhand? (also suggested by my friend)

However I really think that Miura should give his explanation as soon as possible. I never seen SK neither regretting for not killing Griffith nor mentioning any of that. I guess that we will have to just wait and see.

I foresee the possiblity of Griffith turning on and Destroying the Godhand as well. Its suggested that at the time of Gaeseric there existed 4 angels (5th Gaeseric?) that came down to destroy the Empire. But we have heard nothing of them since, only that in time the ascension of Void was left in its wake, the initial member of the present Godhand. IMO it may be more than mere coincidence that Griffith's character parrallels that of Gaeseric's (even Guts picked up on this).

I speculated earlier that perhaps there is a cyclical nature to the chain events we are seeing now. And that Gutts character is an anamoly outside this circle of fate, which allows him to act as an X-factor in all of this to allow him to break this chain and possibly thwart the Idea of Evil's master plan. And that the SK may be aware of this and therefore helping Gutts along the way.






.............or maybe I'm full of crap.

I foresee the possiblity of Griffith turning on and Destroying the Godhand as well. Its suggested that at the time of Gaeseric there existed 4 angels (5th Gaeseric?) that came down to destroy the Empire. But we have heard nothing of them since, only that in time the ascension of Void was left in its wake, the initial member of the present Godhand. IMO it may be more than mere coincidence that Griffith's character parrallels that of Gaeseric's (even Guts picked up on this).

I speculated earlier that perhaps there is a cyclical nature to the chain events we are seeing now. And that Gutts character is an anamoly outside this circle of fate, which allows him to act as an X-factor in all of this to allow him to break this chain and possibly thwart the Idea of Evil's master plan. And that the SK may be aware of this and therefore helping Gutts along the way.

Yeah I wrote about this exact thing at length here

some quotes from others on that thread

.... Just because Guts, by himself could never destroy Femto, that doesn't mean that an entire group of sufficiently skilled/powerful individuals couldn't do so. Remember what SK said, that only those who were outside of the story (a.k.a. outside of fate) could possibly harm a God's Hand, which is why Griffith targeted Flora. But this implies that it is possible for such individuals to destroy even a God's Hand, though it is almost certainly so difficult as to be nearly impossible.
.....

Hmmmm, what if the Chaos Factor isn't Gutts, but the SK? Remember how Kyasuka (AKA: Casca) and Gatts were saved from a "default" destiny.

Maybe SK managed to escape the God Hand, of even better: maybe this Skull Knight lives before the God Hand was formed. So, if he was ruling the kingdoms before the Idea of Evil was born, he would be outside of it's influence, because his genetic and predetermined contexts weren't "there" when the SK was born.

Or even better: he's something opposite to the Idea of Evil, and he can change destiny like he did in the Sacrifice with Gatts and Kyasuka. Of course, he doesn't seems to be as powerful as the Idea of Evil itself, but, as has been said, he's out of it's control, and he can gain "momentum". And he would already, with Gutts, Kyasuka (if/when she's cured), and the group following Gattsu.

It could be that Miura wants to trick all of us with the belief of Gattsu being the main character of the story. I mean, he is. But we don't really know if he's the main character in the events of the world of Berserk. Maybe we're reading the story of a (Gutts forgive me xD) "secondary" character in the main story.

So I just read Vol. 21 of Berserk and I didn't get what Lord Mozgus' weakness was.
First Gatts couldn't cut him and then he could. What'd I miss?

His weakness was that he needed that big bad armor to protect him, because his own body was still that of a weak human. And he had that opening (dunno if it was there from the start of if Guts cut it open) in the armor just above his heart, which Guts used to get some bombs in.

Right, Guts stuck a bunch of those tiny bombs of his in a small gap in the armor, and blew it wide open.

Sweet, thanks for the help!
It's the middle of waterpolo season so my eyes are always burning when I'm trying to read Berserk.
I wish I could say it adds to the experience...

maybe someone already looked into this. but in the chapter where Guts and Skullknight fight against Slan, he has a sword made from many behelits. so probably skullknight has been fighting Apostles for 1000 years now

Yes he has. SK picks up behelits however he can get them, and the Sword of Ressonance shall be Void's doom!

Starnum wrote:Yes he has. SK picks up behelits however he can get them, and the Sword of Ressonance shall be Void's doom!

Good point, as long as he avoids stabbing himself again in the process.