Project "Short Bus", Mindwerk's Game Development

[psi29a]

I'll try to keep this top post up to date with what information and resources we create thus making this the official thread of Project "Short Bus".

Documentation:
2006.09.27 - http://www.shatteredhalo.com/files/shortbus.pdf
This is summary of everything we discussed in the previous dev meeting, with information, links, downloads, screenshots of stuff that gets the project moving along. I thank all those who were in attendance.


I incourage everyone to take a look at what we have come up with and offer their ideas, critisms, and general feedback.

[psi29a]

right, so kind amoved into the sci-fi area a bit in tonight's dev meeting.

Here is the log:

[22:53] SirAileron: rpg style works well.
[22:53] psi29a: I'm keen on the rpg/strat
[22:53] psi29a: so, the directly we headed last tuesday sounds good then?
[22:53] psi29a: sorry, direction?
[22:54] Southpaw: I believe so
[22:54] SirAileron: I think so.
[22:54] psi29a: well, how 'bout we drop the fantasy, and head into science fiction.
[22:54] Southpaw: I fervently approve
[22:55] SirAileron: That sounds fun to me.
[22:55] HeWhoIsIAm: I'll go with that
[22:55] psi29a: i have two ideas, aside from fantasy. Mech-warrior/FASA style or post-apoc
[22:56] psi29a: the post-apoc is similiar to fantasy in that we it all takes place on the same world.
[22:56] arke: post apocalypse is getting to the cliched point now
[22:56] psi29a: the Mech-warrior/FASA has a lot more posiblities, including world traveling, colonization, and character development
[22:56] Southpaw: well really any sci-fi can have those things
[22:57] SirAileron: Star Ocean comes to mind... >_>
[22:57] Southpaw: what specific part of mechwarrior aside from big metal death amchines caught your fancy?
[22:57] psi29a: well, the idea of spheres of influence I talked about
[22:58] Southpaw: heh excellent
[22:58] arke: what kind of game do you want?
[22:58] arke: turn-based, "real-time"?
[22:58] Southpaw: near real time is what I woul dshoot for
[22:59] psi29a: actually, turn based for strat part, and real-time for dueling
[22:59] arke: over the web? sounds absurd
[22:59] SirAileron: Near-real time is what the current commercial MMORPGs are. <_<
[22:59] SirAileron: We're just using a web-browser here...
[22:59] arke: over HTTP, using HTML/XML, over TCP
[22:59] psi29a: if mechs are involved I was thinking of duels between mechs
[22:59] Southpaw: last web browser game i played was like that but wahtever i aint a techie
[22:59] arke: none of them are suited for real time
[23:00] psi29a: if you want to get technical about it, real time would be udp clients, but that is out of our hands at the moment
[23:01] psi29a: i'm trying to avoid technical at the moment and get a feel of where we want to go
[23:01] arke: my vote, if you haven't noticed, is turn-based
[23:01] SirAileron: I think the wisest choice is to go turn-based.
[23:01] psi29a: i agree with that
[23:02] arke: my favorite online game was turn based
[23:02] SirAileron: When things improve from there, real-time may be considered, but this is just the start.
[23:02] Southpaw: I vote for something other than turnbased, only because it feels fairly impersonal when you play that way
[23:02] HeWhoIsIAm: perhaps go with turn-base for the moment and later on try real time and see where it goes
[23:02] psi29a: i think turns build up over time, you can either play all day if you want, or just build 'em up over time till you get home from work or whatever.
[23:02] arke: yes
[23:02] Southpaw: that would be alright
[23:03] arke: you earn a turn every X minutes, up to a max (or no max, I played with a max)
[23:03] psi29a: i really want to impliment duels, where both people are on at the same time and agree to duke it out... allow other players to take bets...
[23:03] psi29a: large bets
[23:03] psi29a: planed duels, or just whoever is available
[23:03] psi29a: hehe, internet gamers have to much pride hehehe
[23:04] SirAileron: too true. XD
[23:04] * SirAileron points to his pile o'pride
[23:04] SirAileron: Bets sound like a really good idea.
[23:04] Southpaw: so are the turn build ups for the strat component or the rpg 'character'?
[23:05] psi29a: turnbased is the strat component
[23:05] Southpaw: because it feels kinda like we have too games rolled into one here
[23:05] Southpaw: two*
[23:05] psi29a: it does
[23:05] Southpaw: ok cool
[23:05] Southpaw: so how do we deal with the rpg side
[23:05] psi29a: i want one game, because that is where we start
[23:05] psi29a: we build on more games to the same world as time goes on
[23:06] arke: who's hosting and on what?
[23:06] psi29a: the rpg side would be more about politiking, dueling, laddering
[23:06] SirAileron: the strat side yould be your fans.
[23:07] psi29a: arke: probably me for the time being. I posted a link to the pdf with info on last dev meeting in OTW
[23:07] arke: yeah, that PDF was huge
[23:07] Southpaw: i kinda see the the rpg being intrinsic to the strat because of politicking and admin and leader ship, those things will have immense value to running a guild/empire on the strat side
[23:07] psi29a: this is true
[23:07] psi29a: but, which one do we build first?
[23:07] Southpaw: ick
[23:08] Southpaw: i guess rpg
[23:08] SirAileron: flesh out the running around and killing
[23:09] arke: any model for the game?
[23:09] psi29a: define model
[23:09] arke: predecessors
[23:09] psi29a: i think newage was something some of us played
[23:10] Southpaw: i pretty much want to stay away form how newage ran their rpg side
[23:10] psi29a: however, I think newage's hacks/addons like quests was half baked and added nothing to the game
[23:10] psi29a: it was always about the SF
[23:11] psi29a: there wasn't any satisfaction from it after awhile
[23:12] psi29a: i wanted a more intracit version of the spacial field where people clustered around each other, because of trade
[23:12] psi29a: spheres of influence
[23:12] psi29a: micro-economies
[23:12] psi29a: ... anyone alive?
[23:12] SirAileron: yes.
[23:13] Southpaw: yeah
[23:13] Southpaw: just thinkimg
[23:13] psi29a: at this point i'm to worried about implimentation.
[23:13] SirAileron: so it could be understood that in order to make such interactions effective and enticing to the game...
[23:13] SirAileron: it might be a better idea to do that part first?
[23:14] psi29a: what is the core reason why people play web-based games over non-web-based ?
[23:14] SirAileron: people.
[23:14] Southpaw: its free they ae on dial up
[23:14] SirAileron: that, unfortunately, is also the reason others don't play, <)<
[23:14] SirAileron: <_<
[23:14] Southpaw: i am guessing you meant browser over other?
[23:15] psi29a: i'm wondering what is it you guys think is the lynch-pin of web-based games.
[23:15] Southpaw: people play online for social interaction and to compete
[23:15] psi29a: from what I've seen it has been community & accessibilty
[23:15] arke: ease
[23:15] SirAileron: Community is indeed one of the driving points,
[23:16] SirAileron: even if the person doesn't know anyone in real life who plays it, they get immersed.
[23:16] psi29a: and accessibility is that it isn't complicated (at least not initially).
[23:18] SirAileron: hmm...
[23:18] psi29a: well, are we thinking space then?
[23:19] Southpaw: ?
[23:19] SirAileron: what do you think could be done for the technical demo that exclaims "This project shows immense promise"?
[23:19] SirAileron: I think that would get people hooked. <_<
[23:20] psi29a: well, each new person that signs up is a grunt on some planet. Each person is given a quota of shit they need to do in order to gain ranks on said planet.
[23:20] psi29a: this would exploit the start part of the game.
[23:21] psi29a: as persons gain rank, they take on responsiblity to help guild new players(grunts).
[23:21] *** Ayanami has joined #mindwerks.
[23:22] SirAileron: Kind of like how Shisho tanks for my bro in WoW sometimes. <_<
[23:22] psi29a: haha, yeah... he tanks for all fo us
[23:22] SirAileron: that man's a beast....
[23:22] psi29a: btw, SP and pyro... shisho is 60 now and pretty much tanks with us just so he can pwn horde.
[23:23] Southpaw: as they do things to benefit the community they are given more control of the planets resources to further develop it. You help newbs because more strong palyers will benefit your particular world?
[23:23] HeWhoIsIAm: I've ran with him a couple times
[23:23] SirAileron: Basically, you represent where you come from.
[23:23] psi29a: SP: I think that later on, beyond the tech demo that is a real posiblity.
[23:23] HeWhoIsIAm: There are also players who prefer to go solo, not help other players
[23:23] Southpaw: i am overreaching?
[23:24] *** Gaiseric has joined #mindwerks.
[23:24] psi29a: There are those that solo, but they are still given marching orders
[23:24] Southpaw: well you can set up solo traders and or merc units or commercial prodiction facilities
[23:24] *** Gaiseric has signed off IRC (Quit: PJIRC Chat MOD User).
[23:24] Southpaw: that depend on the planet communiteis for jobs
[23:24] psi29a: has anyone ever played eve online?
[23:24] Southpaw: yes
[23:24] SirAileron: I'd imagine eventually we'd get around to how the game would handle 'rogues'
[23:24] psi29a: thoughts?
[23:25] HeWhoIsIAm: for a little bit
[23:25] Southpaw: eve was nice but a little stale
[23:25] *** Ayanami has signed off IRC (Quit: PJIRC Chat MOD User).
[23:25] Southpaw: only played for a week though
[23:25] psi29a: well, rogues == pirates in this case but the objective of both are 'bout the same
[23:26] psi29a: arke? thoughts?
[23:26] HeWhoIsIAm: the concepts was nice in eve, but it had a lot of repetition
[23:26] * SirAileron would probably only be a pirate. >_>
[23:26] Southpaw: rogues/pirates sounds like something post tech demo
[23:27] psi29a: right
[23:27] psi29a: well, we like where this is going?
[23:27] Southpaw: I do
[23:27] psi29a: or do we have another idea of the tech demo?
[23:27] HeWhoIsIAm: very promising
[23:27] SirAileron: that may be, but we'd need to find out how to tantalize people with that option without adding it into the tech demo.
[23:28] Southpaw: we can add an addendum of things we plan to include but are not showing off
[23:28] SirAileron: I dunno... maybe the option to ignore orders, and make an almost possible escape from the planetary order?
[23:29] psi29a: again, out of the scope of that particluar tech demo, but I wanted more ideas about what a possible exploitation of a tech demo should be?
[23:29] psi29a: do we go more rpg or more strat?
[23:29] Southpaw: more strat
[23:29] SirAileron: I'd say strat.
[23:29] HeWhoIsIAm: why am I thinking about the ability to start revolutions on planets?
[23:29] SirAileron: Pirates. <_<
[23:29] Southpaw: shh that for later
[23:31] psi29a: k, then how 'bout everyone starts off on either of two sides on a map. as more people sign-up, they are randomly assigned a side. Their objective (summation that is) to kick as much ass as possible for the length of the tech demo.
[23:31] psi29a: more ass they kick, the higher their rank, they can choose to group up or not.
[23:31] SirAileron: heh... that sounds fun.
[23:32] Southpaw: that sounds good here
[23:32] HeWhoIsIAm: I like where you're headed with that
[23:32] SirAileron: maybe it's just the phrase 'ass-kicking' that causes that feeling. >_>
[23:32] psi29a: i was thinking smace
[23:32] psi29a: but perhaps as you gain rank, you get access to bigger toys, like mechs
[23:32] Southpaw: nah
[23:32] psi29a: so they are all grunts at first?
[23:32] SirAileron: bigger toys that command smaller units.
[23:32] Southpaw: start of your planets with a base lvl oh tech
[23:33] Southpaw: you have to expand your tech and logistics as you expand
[23:33] arke: only web based games I played had you owning planets and trying to settle/conquer others
[23:33] SirAileron: We shouldn't have to worry about that for the tech demo though...
[23:33] Southpaw: then just give them an army and say go at it?
[23:34] psi29a: we can go that directly, but I think for the time being to get people introduced... we drop 'em into green recruits.
[23:34] SirAileron: You could add a spin to it,
[23:35] SirAileron: paying attention to little details, such as what range your orders cover as you increase rank
[23:35] psi29a: well one side could be green 2nd Lt. with units to command, and the other side could be a nobel's son who has his own loyal units to command.
[23:35] psi29a: you can spend your turns moving units or creating more
[23:35] SirAileron: Attacks become commands to soldiers, which become the advising of units, which becomes something else...
[23:36] SirAileron: <_<
[23:36] psi29a: i'm trying to abstract the player from being 'playable' in the strat game, so we don't have to deal with the issue of death
[23:37] arke: agreed, just be a general that commands ones armies until you have none
[23:37] arke: you can add loyalty later
[23:37] psi29a: *nods*
[23:38] psi29a: perhaps at the very beginning, you can choose how you build your initial command before deploying planet side into combat.
[23:38] arke: what's the basic land unit for which to fight? continents? planets? systems?
[23:38] Southpaw: maybe you should choose at your home palnet
[23:39] Southpaw: i would say planets
[23:39] psi29a: i would like to eventually do that, but I want to build start engine around one planet right now
[23:39] Southpaw: think we could implement battle offplanet, naval battles?
[23:39] SirAileron: How about space battle?
[23:39] psi29a: later, we can abstract out to planets.
[23:39] SirAileron: One is commanding the ships,
[23:40] SirAileron: the other is invading the ships of the opponent.
[23:40] psi29a: inter-planet battles come later
[23:40] SirAileron: <.<
[23:40] Southpaw: kk single planet
[23:40] Southpaw: so maybe do country sized areas to fight over? breal up the bigger countries inot bits?
[23:40] psi29a: yup, single planet
[23:40] Southpaw: into*
[23:41] arke: well, it wouldn't be planet A versus planet B, but player C versus player D; each who many own one or more planets
[23:41] psi29a: by planet, I mean a big friggen map
[23:41] arke: each who may own*
[23:41] psi29a: i think that is out of scope with what we want to initially build.
[23:42] psi29a: sign-up, jump into commanding something... conquore terriroty for your 'side'.
[23:42] arke: I was just expanding the concept of territory
[23:43] psi29a: *nods* i liked the idea of continuing with your respected sides, or retiring after the initial planet war and becoming a merc for hire.
[23:43] Southpaw: maybe we should have limited amounts of units available to each side depending on how much economic power and industry they control, and your rank determines how many units are available to you when you decide to jump in and fight for your faction
[23:44] psi29a: i like that idea, if you start as a 2nd LT, you get a platoon
[23:44] psi29a: you can modify howyour platoon is laid out of course
[23:44] Southpaw: yes
[23:44] psi29a: but as you gain reputation/rank/wtf-ever you gain access to new things or more things
[23:44] Southpaw: also have different equipment availbe dependent on the flavor of your faction
[23:44] Southpaw: oh yeah
[23:45] psi29a: the ability to communicate with fellow players allow you to cordinate attacks
[23:45] psi29a: i was thinking of iframing a irc channel to the bottom of the screen
[23:46] Southpaw: oh that would be nice
[23:46] arke: bah
[23:46] psi29a: that is what WoW does, they just built in IRC into their client.
[23:46] psi29a: hence /join channel
[23:46] arke: not quite the same though
[23:46] psi29a: same irc protocol right?
[23:47] psi29a: blizzard used off the shelf tech, direct X, IRC, and bit-torrent
[23:47] arke: I have no idea
[23:47] arke: drawing a comparison between WoW and this game is tenous at best
[23:48] arke: bah, knew it; tenuous*
[23:48] Southpaw: tenuous may be too strong a word
[23:49] psi29a: i was making passing statement that communication is key, when not using vent nor real time environment, then casual irc is just fine for group communication
[23:50] psi29a: HeWhoIsIAm: *poke*
[23:50] arke: iframing an IRC channel would be too much complexity
[23:51] psi29a: btw, there was no real agenda for this meeting, i just wanted people ideas before I start banging out the next document
[23:51] SirAileron: I've about reached my time limit. Classes happen early tomorrow, so need some sleep.
[23:52] psi29a: right oh, take care SA, keep me informed
[23:52] SirAileron: I'll be sure to.
[23:52] SirAileron: (get better soon, admmit bro! >_<)
[23:52] SirAileron: dammit* >.>
[23:52] SirAileron: and with that, I exit.
[23:52] *** SirAileron has signed off IRC (Quit: PJIRC Chat MOD User).
[23:55] psi29a: k
[23:56] psi29a: so... general idea good?
[23:56] HeWhoIsIAm: well I guess I will take my leave now as well
[23:56] psi29a: bad, needs more thought?
[23:56] psi29a: :/
[23:56] HeWhoIsIAm: hah, I like where it's going
[23:56] Southpaw: I like the idea, needs more development but its fine
[23:56] HeWhoIsIAm: the idea for the tech demo is sounds so far, as far as it can get right now
[23:57] HeWhoIsIAm: I think it could be thought out more, as I'm sure it will
[23:58] HeWhoIsIAm: I can't really put much info in at this stage, I'm more of a fine-tune kind of guy when it comes to these things
[23:59] psi29a: well, scetch up of toys would be cool
[23:59] psi29a: battles, terrain
[23:59] psi29a: by terrain, i don' tmean knockign over shot-glasses
[00:00] HeWhoIsIAm: >.> whatever do you mean.... <.<
[00:01] psi29a: knock stuff over, and say... ther eis our terrain
[00:01] HeWhoIsIAm: psh, some of the best ideas come from simple objects such as that
[00:02] HeWhoIsIAm: but I'll see what I can come up with and send you some things
[00:04] psi29a: right, SP?
[00:04] Southpaw: hmm?
[00:05] psi29a: if you want, draft up some ideas about indroduction into th eplanetside conflict
[00:05] psi29a: i'm going to do the same
[00:05] Southpaw: backstory?
[00:05] psi29a: arke, anyone else... if ya guys want to as well
[00:05] psi29a: nah, more gameplay oriented
[00:06] HeWhoIsIAm: will do, will do
[00:06] psi29a: like, would the initial unit that the new player (leader) has control of, are they seperate units on the map, or one unit with different attributes
[00:06] psi29a: over time, what causes ranks to be gained
[00:06] psi29a: what comes of promotions
[00:06] Southpaw: oh right up how it should work in a IMHO way
[00:06] psi29a: what new things do they get
[00:06] psi29a: yup
[00:06] Southpaw: np
[00:07] psi29a: i figured we could do our own thing, then come back and mesh out how best to handle it
[00:07] Southpaw: sounds good
[00:07] psi29a: this jumps start people right into playing without having the boring build up it like in NA3
[00:07] HeWhoIsIAm: that'll work
[00:07] HeWhoIsIAm: you want to throw them right into the fray?
[00:07] psi29a: yup
[00:08] psi29a: they have been through into the fight against the other side (whoever that is), they are fresh out of OCS and given their first command.
[00:08] HeWhoIsIAm: haven't seen many, if any web games do that before
[00:08] HeWhoIsIAm: I like it
[00:09] psi29a: later on, once they get higher in rank, they get access to building bunkers and given orders to take control of land and keep it
[00:09] psi29a: or its their ass
[00:09] psi29a: they can loose rank too
[00:09] psi29a: *grin*
[00:09] HeWhoIsIAm: what about those who choose to fight for their own side?
[00:10] psi29a: that can be handled post tech demo
[00:10] HeWhoIsIAm: kk
[00:10] psi29a: think of this as two 'clans' going at it on the planet
[00:11] HeWhoIsIAm: yeah, I get what you're saying
[00:11] psi29a: so, post tech-demo we get into many planets with many clans... with their own lil wars between themselves. New players come into the fray
[00:11] HeWhoIsIAm: I just look through the side of player who don't like clans or groups
[00:11] psi29a: fight with distinction, and if they want to get out of the wars they can move into the more abstract part of the game...
[00:12] HeWhoIsIAm: kinda like how Aeronwyn had to pressure me to join BotH in WoW
[00:12] psi29a: kinda like starship troopers where in order to be a citizen, you must enlist
[00:12] psi29a: you joined eh?
[00:12] Southpaw: heh i got a timecard
[00:12] HeWhoIsIAm: heh, yeah. Aeronwyn forced me on pain of death
[00:12] psi29a: heheh
[00:12] psi29a:
[00:12] Southpaw: gah
[00:12] * HeWhoIsIAm looks at southpaw in fear
[00:13] HeWhoIsIAm: or should I refer to her as Starlore here?
[00:14] psi29a: sure
[00:14] psi29a: i'll be on wow later this week
[00:14] Southpaw: sweet
[00:15] psi29a: should we consider that the map be more than just a flat map... as in, terrain matters?
[00:15] Southpaw: well i was thinking two maps
[00:15] HeWhoIsIAm: two maps?
[00:15] psi29a: oh?
[00:15] Southpaw: a strategic and a tactical
[00:15] Southpaw: a tactical map for every territory you can fight over
[00:15] Southpaw: in tactical terrain matters
[00:15] Southpaw: strategic not so much
[00:16] psi29a: well, what would you do in either?
[00:16] HeWhoIsIAm: as far as terrain, I think it should matter. I mech trying to get up a somewhat steep hill should have more dificuly than one booking down flat ground
[00:16] Southpaw: strat shows you what territories have production facilities and who owns what and shows wjhat kinf of units can go where
[00:17] Southpaw: in tactical you keep movement terrain and then can do things like modifiers for high ground cover in forests whatever
[00:18] psi29a: ok, so... tactical map is for moving troops/righting/etc while strat map gives you an overhead of what is where?
[00:19] Southpaw: well you move on strategic till you get to whee you want to atack or are attacked then you slug it out on tactical
[00:20] arke: too much work IMO
[00:20] psi29a: i tend to agree
[00:20] Southpaw: just a suggestion
[00:20] arke: remember, this isn't real time
[00:20] Southpaw: i know
[00:20] Southpaw: you would que your moves by turn
[00:20] arke: ideally you should be able to battle someone in Australia
[00:20] Southpaw: as the tunrs go you move your allotment
[00:20] arke: no, too much work still
[00:21] Southpaw: k
[00:21] Southpaw: what would you do?
[00:21] arke: just attack
[00:21] psi29a: i think if we decide to make a non web-based game then we could impliment the tactical view, in kinda like sudo-real-time strat
[00:21] arke: heh, sudo
[00:21] arke: (it's psuedo
[00:21] psi29a: sorry... linux speek
[00:21] Southpaw: just move it their calculate scores and then someone wins loses?
[00:21] psi29a: su -, sux, sudo... heh
[00:21] arke: Southpaw- essentially
[00:22] Southpaw: ok
[00:22] arke: weigh the two sides against each other, toss in some randomness
[00:22] psi29a: that is where building your units comes in when you are first given your command.
[00:22] arke: http://www.xkcd.com/c149.html -- this is for you psi
[00:22] psi29a: how do you build your fire teams
[00:23] arke: IMO, building the teams is where the strategy should be
[00:23] psi29a: wooooo, my heart!
[00:23] psi29a: *nods*
[00:23] Southpaw: eh, ok. I just tend to think to big especially since I don't know what can/can't be done in web browser
[00:24] psi29a: well it isn't that it can't be done, just ask yourself... can a team of 4 people pull it off in a month
[00:24] arke: played one that collapsed under its popularity
[00:24] psi29a: arke: to much traffic ?
[00:24] arke: getting most of my ideas from it
[00:24] arke: yeah
[00:25] arke: it was hugely successful, but free
[00:25] psi29a: we can limit traffic via techniques, but in the end.. its http
[00:25] arke: that it was Korean and had a large English speaking contingent probably didn't help
[00:25] psi29a: that is why I want a base web-based game, get a community
[00:25] arke: it had one, definitely
[00:26] arke: probably could chalk it up to being too early
[00:26] arke: (this was circa 2000 or so)
[00:26] arke: science fiction themed too
[00:26] psi29a: well, so long as we don't build it to big or hefty, because at that point... we can invest time into non-web based clients to interact
[00:26] arke: builts space ships, and attacked
[00:26] arke: about it
[00:26] psi29a: keep the web-based as free, and charge for bigger stuff
[00:26] arke: but was amazingly fun
[00:27] Southpaw: fun is what matters the most
[00:27] psi29a: that sounds like what I wanted to do
[00:27] arke: one thing I liked was that it had a hardcore and non-hardcore arenas
[00:27] arke: one was turn every five minutes, max of 300, other was, IIRC, one every ten, max of 250
[00:27] psi29a: i wanted people to build/customized mechs... then kinda program a simple AI into them, then trash talk an oppenant, set up a duel, and watch it happen with a crowd to take bets.
[00:28] arke: that'd require something more complicated unfortunately
[00:28] psi29a: but that would be fun, like tank wars
[00:28] arke: probably
[00:28] psi29a: program the tank, let it loose in an arena of other tanks...
[00:29] psi29a: tweak your ai some more...
[00:29] psi29a: have one big battle a week
[00:29] arke: if we're venting ideas for games...
[00:29] psi29a: but that is a project for another time
[00:29] arke: one thing I'd like is an MMORPG with varying boundaries and multiple (> 2) sides
[00:30] arke: like in WoW you have Alliance/Horde/disputed territories
[00:30] psi29a: i'd like that very much
[00:30] arke: why not let players change that
[00:30] arke: a la battle grounds
[00:30] arke: but be the entire world
[00:30] Southpaw: i;ve seen that done but it wasnt a real mmo
[00:30] psi29a: i wanted that for our game, after the tech demo. that is why HeWhoIsIAm wanted non-faction players, solos, or another side
[00:31] arke: three sides is the minimum, but I think four or five would be optimum
[00:31] psi29a: i want to see every morning a status report of a planet and see the boundaries change daily based on the fighting
[00:31] psi29a: same with planets in a system
[00:31] arke: my brother and I fleshed out how to do it
[00:32] psi29a: ah, do tell
[00:32] arke: it'd just require several years of programming to do
[00:32] arke: add more villages
[00:32] psi29a: ah, non web-based?
[00:32] arke: well, you play WoW
[00:32] arke: oh, certainly
[00:32] arke: MMORPG
[00:32] psi29a: well, i'm gaim in c/c++ and java
[00:32] arke: like in WoW, I think it's..
[00:32] psi29a: use lisp or python for iterative parts, ai, etc
[00:32] Southpaw: i'm heading out later
[00:32] arke: not AV, but one with five or six bases and you capture them for resource points
[00:32] psi29a: take care SP
[00:33] psi29a: thanks for your input
[00:33] *** Southpaw has signed off IRC (Quit: PJIRC Chat MOD User).
[00:33] arke: know which battle ground that is?
[00:33] arke: same concept for capturing towns/villages
[00:33] psi29a: i haven't played much battle ground
[00:33] HeWhoIsIAm: I'm heading on out too
[00:33] arke: but they'd have guards and "underground movements", a la Civ 3
[00:34] arke: so, say, Stormwind would have tons of guards to protect it, but fringe villages might not
[00:34] *** HeWhoIsIAm has signed off IRC (Quit: PJIRC Chat MOD User).
[00:34] arke: each one has spheres of influence to adjust the map
[00:34] arke: and there could be uprisings if it was newly conquered and was long held by different side
[00:35] arke: (and had an actual population)
[00:35] psi29a: *nods*
[00:35] arke: IMO, the game would be a lot more fun
[00:35] arke: maps could be recalculated nightly
[00:35] arke: (depending on load of course)
[00:36] arke: I really, really considered basing it off Wesnoth mythos
[00:36] psi29a: by maps, you mean the bounderies or the playing maps?
[00:36] arke: it has multiple sides already
[00:36] arke: boundaries
[00:36] psi29a: ah, i like wesnoth
[00:36] arke: geography won't change
[00:36] arke: though I'd have fewer restrictions on where you could go
[00:37] arke: if there was a gigantic mountain, shit, go ahead and try to climb it
[00:37] arke: (likewise for closed off areas)
[00:38] psi29a: I think it is something we can pull off
[00:38] arke: heh
[00:38] arke: it'd be pure OSS too
[00:38] arke: client/server that is
[00:38] psi29a: so, two part project. server compenant and clicent compenant?
[00:38] arke: it'd be a standard MMORPG, yes
[00:38] psi29a: i've worked on c++/mysql apps before
[00:38] psi29a: and java/graphic apps before
[00:38] psi29a: i want to get into java3d soon
[00:38] arke: *ideally* free, but bandwidth/computers cost money
[00:39] arke: I'd probably support C++
[00:39] arke: Java, meh
[00:39] arke: C++ is already meh for me
[00:39] arke: but I don't think C would be a good idea
[00:39] arke: making the engine C++ and everything else scripted a la Python would be a good idea
[00:41] psi29a: well c++ is great, but for GUIs you have to have a choice, QT, GTK2, or FWTK, or other
[00:41] arke: oh, multithread would be a plus too
[00:41] arke: fuck it, implement our own
[00:41] arke: like Blender
[00:41] arke: pure OpenGL
[00:41] psi29a: hahaha, well... multithreaded on the server side, the only reason I see multithread on client side would be background music, and main loop
[00:41] arke: why's that?
[00:41] arke: I can see almost everything being a separate thread
[00:42] arke: display/input would probably be one, but sound and network could easily be spun off
[00:42] arke: sound especially
[00:42] psi29a: well, i may be a bad parrelel programmer, but I always found problems in syncing threads
[00:42] arke: don't sync
[00:42] psi29a: like actions on screen to audible actions when threaded
[00:42] arke: think async
[00:43] psi29a: i've done a bit of shared memory, forking, IPC...
[00:43] arke: if the person is playing on a heavily loaded system, a single thread application isn't going to perform much better
[00:43] psi29a: well, unless the person is SMP (perhaps dualcore is way of the future) you wont gain anything with threads
[00:43] arke: but, multicore CPUs are commonplace now
[00:43] arke: heh
[00:44] arke: within a few years, should be a lot more papers on how to multithread things
[00:44] arke: previous it was always a big iron thing, and there are a lot of algorithms that can be multithreaded, but not much on the client side yet
[00:44] arke: I think it'd just require a bit of rethinking on how to do
[00:44] arke: and tossing out syncing threads
[00:44] psi29a: heh, i was tought to do IPC, SHM, etc on HP-UX big-iron at my uni
[00:45] psi29a: then had to impliment it using m68K asem
[00:45] arke: latency didn't really matter though
[00:45] arke: heh
[00:45] arke: hopefully wait-free algorithms will be more commonplace soon
[00:46] arke: also put in some thought on how to do the server side
[00:46] arke: that I'd probably make multiprocess
[00:46] psi29a: well I'm going to head to bed here soon. however, I like where we are going thus far with our lil web-based thing, of course I like the game idea swap for the future
[00:46] psi29a: Mindwerks... that is what this is all about
[00:46] arke: heh
[00:46] arke: I'd shelve the MMORPG idea for now
[00:46] arke: it's grandiose
[00:46] psi29a: yeah, it is to big right now
[00:46] psi29a: my devs are to green
[00:47] arke: one of those "quit job, program for five years, release alpha"
[00:47] psi29a: i would kill for a post-apoc MMO
[00:47] psi29a: like fallout MMO
[00:47] arke: I'd probably theme it fantasy
[00:47] arke: post apocalypse is getting to be so cliched
[00:48] arke: everything science fiction (and more) is that
[00:48] psi29a: that is true, but I find that fantasy is over played too
[00:48] arke: true
[00:48] psi29a: so we come to an empasse... forwards or backwords
[00:48] arke: more MMORPGs are fantasy based than science fiction
[00:49] arke: I think fantasy based is easier to conceive
[00:49] arke: magic and swords is easier than planets and space ships
[00:49] psi29a: *nods* i agree
[00:49] arke: especially proper space ships
[00:49] arke: like ones obeying Newton's Three Laws
[00:50] psi29a: there was a game that used newtonian physics for space dog fights
[00:50] psi29a: i can't remember the name... jumpspace was it?
[00:50] psi29a: very fun
[00:50] arke: no idea
[00:50] arke: HomeWorld was fun
[00:50] psi29a: ah yes it iwas
[00:50] arke: very non-Newtonian
[00:50] psi29a: but my time here is short, i must depart
[00:50] arke: okay
[00:50] psi29a: yell at me if you need anything

[Eldo]

So we are talking mechs now instead of the fantasy theme?

[psi29a]

Close to it, no mechs at the beginning.

However, below is a link to the next document based on previous discussions. I hope to discuss more at the next dev meeting which will be Tuesday (10th) of October.

All future meetings will be Tuesday nights.

Document:
http://www.shatteredhalo.com/files/shortbus01.pdf

[psi29a]

Since he wouldn't post it here himself, here is a copy of the conversation.

(2006-10-10 13:09:20) ^42ndEndOfTheWorld: are you there, dude?
(14:12:23) psi29a: am now
(14:12:25) psi29a: wassup?
(14:12:34) ^42ndEndOfTheWorld: hi
(14:12:42) ^42ndEndOfTheWorld: I have an idea
(14:12:43) psi29a: just got in from lunch
(14:12:53) psi29a: dev meeting is in 6~7 hours
(14:13:09) ^42ndEndOfTheWorld: that's in 4 am in Serbia
(14:13:18) psi29a: well, i can't please everyone.
(14:13:27) ^42ndEndOfTheWorld: it's ok
(14:13:34) ^42ndEndOfTheWorld: Just listen me now, please
(14:13:35) psi29a: as I said yesterday, if ya can't make it then post in the forum.
(14:13:45) psi29a: type away, please excuse me, i'm at work
(14:13:59) ^42ndEndOfTheWorld: here
(14:14:07) psi29a: k
(14:14:43) ^42ndEndOfTheWorld: so I think that a strategic part of the game (when you engage another player) should be turn based
(14:14:57) ^42ndEndOfTheWorld: but not normal turn based
(14:15:10) psi29a: can you at least post this in the forum please? I ask others to do the same thing
(14:15:24) ^42ndEndOfTheWorld: ok, I'll do that
(14:15:28) psi29a: thank ya
(14:15:34) ^42ndEndOfTheWorld: but not right now
(14:15:35) psi29a: that lets us all see, and not just I
(14:15:59) ^42ndEndOfTheWorld: I can create entire flash client
(14:16:18) ^42ndEndOfTheWorld: I'll just make a simple one in a few days
(14:16:22) psi29a: we are not going to use flash though.
(14:16:28) ^42ndEndOfTheWorld: so you can decide if you like it or not
(14:16:49) ^42ndEndOfTheWorld: I have an idea which is a bit hard to explain, but it is doable only in flash
(14:16:50) psi29a: it has to be web-portable
(14:16:56) psi29a: flash doesn't work on all computers
(14:16:59) ^42ndEndOfTheWorld: flash is web portable
(14:17:02) psi29a: HTML and javascript to
(14:17:04) psi29a: no, it isn't
(14:17:12) psi29a: get me flash8 on linux, then we can talk
(14:17:27) ^42ndEndOfTheWorld: well everyone have a flash player right?
(14:17:31) ^42ndEndOfTheWorld: except linux
(14:17:41) ^42ndEndOfTheWorld: mac
(14:17:42) psi29a: no, they don't... everyone is an inclusive (all) which is false
(14:17:43) ^42ndEndOfTheWorld: windows
(14:17:58) psi29a: what of amiga and linux ?
(14:18:09) psi29a: lynx, and terminal based browsers?
(14:18:13) ^42ndEndOfTheWorld: gamers does not normaly use linux
(14:18:17) ^42ndEndOfTheWorld: dont
(14:18:25) psi29a: the objective is to be cross-platform
(14:18:27) psi29a: flash doesn't cut it
(14:18:45) psi29a: don't get me wrong, its pretty but it isn't what we are looking for at this point
(14:19:13) psi29a: the objective is to make a web-based HTML driven game, small, short and to the point.
(14:19:17) ^42ndEndOfTheWorld: well I'll make a vary simple client, and then we'll talk
(14:19:23) psi29a: *nods* ok
(14:19:33) ^42ndEndOfTheWorld: see ya

I think flash is neat and pretty, but out of the scope with what we want to create right now. After we have something and we are all confortable with what we have, we can investigate flash. However, we must also investigate other ways as well like java which also works in a browser. Java lets you do far more than flash ever will, so why would we limit ourselves?

The stepping stone is HTML/javascript/CSS because it is easily accessible. I say no flash at this point till adobe produces a linux client, otherwise I would be helping to develop a game I couldn't even play.

[Sandman]

Sounds very cool you guys, tell me when it is ready to play... sorry I wish I had time to help but my schedule is all filled up, that and I dont have the internet at home But I guess I could help in other ways if you need it $$$ but if you dont I still look forward to playing

[psi29a]

*nods* thanks for the support.

Right oh, dev meeting this evening. Just a reminder.

[42ndEndOfTheWorld]

one small question. How about money? Will a game be free or for-profit?

[psi29a]

technical demo will be free to play

after that, who knows.

This is just a project to see if we can make something small and fun to play. The profit motivation is here yet. Profit won't make it into the equation till all people who are on the team are ready for it.

Rescheduled meeting for thursday.

[behemot011]

I have flash 7 on linux... proof:


And the reason you can get the flash 8 on linux is :
http://www.kaourantin.net/2005/12/flash ... pdate.html

I personally think that Java is better for game development (not perfect dough), but it will take you a lot of time to develop it and then just let people download Java Runtimes and that's all - but there are some versioning issues... same as everything on Linux...
Anyways if you are going to make a game... start collecting artwork and writing the story. Try to avoid the usual cliches and be more brave!
Good luck!

[EvilDmitri]

I've always wanted to develop a game not sure how it would work over the internet and whatnot through a forum.

Sci-Fi isn't bad.. Post-Apoc is a bit overdone..

Why not blend the two and go Steampunk?

*edit*
Oh and.. Chug-Chug.. MAGITEK ARMOR! xD

[behemot011]

Code: Select all

I've always wanted to develop a game ...

Best way to start game developing is by modifying existing games using the free source code. That will give you a better understanding of game engines and you don't have to worry about AI and memory holes and what not.
I saw on microsoft a ton of different tutorials that teach you how to develop you're own basic game engine, especially now when they released free Visual C# Express. They have a free game engine framework for .NET and XBox 360 called XNA Game Studio Express and it's free for download (note it only works on C# Express I'm afraid, but that's free for DL also). So if you're interested in game development I suggest you to sniff around MSDN, they offer a lot of podcasts and tutorials on game development.

[42ndEndOfTheWorld]

EvilDmitri, if you want an easy and completely free way to make 3D games, I suggest you to check out free irrlicht engine http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/ . Just download newest SDK (you'll need power archiver to unzip file) and code::blocks c++ IDE http://www.codeblocks.org/ . Of course, You'll need a good knowledge of C++ programming, so I suggest you to download a free book thinking in c++ http://www.planetpdf.com/developer/arti ... entID=6634

You can also use ODE for physics: http://www.ode.org/

good luck!


Now, about our game project. I think that you guys wrote somewhere that you are looking for a way to balance hard core players that play 24/7, and regular, sane players. I have several ideas how to encourage players to fight fewer battles:

(1) Make two separate types of experience points for player's troops: training experience (avarded between rounds, it would cost money and take time) and combat experience (avarded during combat). So, training would take lot's of time, and it would be as important as combat experience. I'll try to explain both scales:
Combat experience - determines how well a solider behaves in combat. A solider with lot's of combat points would have high level of self-control (ie, would not refuse any order), higer morale and stamina.
Training experience- determines how good is soldier at handling equipment. A Soldier with lot's of Training points would be more accurate at aiming, and better pilot of mechs and stuff.

(2) Player would be able to heal/repair troops only between battles, and healing would take lot's of time.

(3) Introduce stamina and/or morale, so to make it wiser for a player to take at least a day long rest between battles. Without resting, stamina and morale of troops would quickly drop.


Also I have important idea about game mehanics. Most of you agree that game should be turn-based, beacuse there is no chance in hell to create real time game,but maybe I have a very interesting alternative that is neither real time, nor turn based: in a nutshell, instead of one player making a move and another waiting, both sides would be making their moves simultaneously, and then watched results. I got my inspiration after playing globulos http://www.globulos.com/ , and I think that everyone should try that free game, because it ilustrates concept perfectly. It looks much beter than it sounds, believe me.

those are my ideas.

[psi29a]

Well, for the time being we are totally focused on web-based technologies. So no java, c++, and etc till we want to work on a new project.

Yes, I'm running flash9 beta on my linux machine right now. It has come a long ways and I'm very impressed by it, but again... no flash either on this project.

Good ideas for the gameplay mechanics. We agree on the turn-based game, however, turn-based is linked to time with certain things that can be done (like creation of units). However, troop movement can be dictated with the use of ticks that refill ever 15 minutes or so (gives the game an addiction potential).

However, I must admit that I haven't put much time into this because of my WoW addiction. ^_^

I have a skeleton application of a basic game already made.

Here is what I have todo:
*player account creation & management
*troop movement logic (basic)
*troop combat logic (basic)
*terrain, buildings, troop images (gif or png)

Things done:
*basic layout and design
*map/grid movement & navagation
*initial javascript stubs
*login/logout framework with security in mind
*test harness for debugging

Things I want to talk about:
*linking player stats to forum (under avatar)
*game forum area
*troops/units beyond that of fire squads/platoons.
*evolving tick/turn based game mechanic.

[42ndEndOfTheWorld]

If you are interested in a very solid web-based game, take a look at urban dead http://www.urbandead.com/ (its MMORPG, not strategy)
by the way, is java script allowed?

[psi29a]

Yes, because java and javascript are not the same thing.

Javascript is client side code, specifically for UI. It has been around since Netscape 2. It should be used to enhance the user experience, but in no way should the user be forced to use it. The javascript should degrade gracefully if javascript is not supported.

I've seen some sites that use javascript exclusively in order to make use of the site's functionality and that is a bad design decision.

[EvilDmitri]

Well, for the time being we are totally focused on web-based technologies. So no java, c++, and etc till we want to work on a new project.

Yes, I'm running flash9 beta on my linux machine right now. It has come a long ways and I'm very impressed by it, but again... no flash either on this project.

Good ideas for the gameplay mechanics. We agree on the turn-based game, however, turn-based is linked to time with certain things that can be done (like creation of units). However, troop movement can be dictated with the use of ticks that refill ever 15 minutes or so (gives the game an addiction potential).

However, I must admit that I haven't put much time into this because of my WoW addiction. ^_^

I have a skeleton application of a basic game already made.

Here is what I have todo:
*player account creation & management
*troop movement logic (basic)
*troop combat logic (basic)
*terrain, buildings, troop images (gif or png)

Things done:
*basic layout and design
*map/grid movement & navagation
*initial javascript stubs
*login/logout framework with security in mind
*test harness for debugging

Things I want to talk about:
*linking player stats to forum (under avatar)
*game forum area
*troops/units beyond that of fire squads/platoons.
*evolving tick/turn based game mechanic.

Why not think "X-Com" and go with something along the lines of "Time Units"

That game was the shit!

[EvilDmitri]

Why not think "X-Com" and go with something along the lines of "Time Units"

That game was the shit!

Yup, I loved X-Com but will be hard to scale to 100s of people playing a day, unless we have a huge map. Really, hard-core gamers can play all day, some of us that have limited time will probably get away with playing 30 min a day. So it has to scale both ways. It is a web-based game, not WoW .

You could make the units earned over ticks of seconds regardless of whether a person is playing or not, with some amount of depreciation should they choose not to play, allowing people who play less to still earn TUs. Also make them earn at a slow rate as compared to their value, and things could be shrunk down or if there is a battlefield involved, then put onto a Modular battle map which consists of...

oooooooooooooooo
o o o o o o o o
o o o o o o o o
o o o o o o o o
o o o o o o o o
o o o o o o o o
o o o o o o o o
o o o o o o o o
oooooooooooooooo

Each square being a clickable link to a larger expanded battlemap. Control of these areas could also be a variable and whatnot

Just spouting whatever comes to mind xD i have no idea what the whole game thing is lol.

[42ndEndOfTheWorld]

Count me in, too. I am mostly c/c++ guy, but I am learning PHP (and flash, but it doesn't count here) fast. Let's bring industry to its knees

[psi29a]

Oh... now I get it.. So the application telling you you're fortune is actually a mini game you were talking about. I thought it was a part of the joke!

...

Did you set up SVN... I'm using TortouiseSVN 1.4.0

8ball (fortune program) is not a joke nor was it a mini game, it is an application to get programmers familiar with how fusebox works.

PHP is a procedural language, no matter how you spin it. PHP's Objects, classes, templates, you name it... in the end it is is procedural code. If you wanna write objects, probably best to stick with java.

I do have an Subversion repository up, but before I open it up to those that want to help I need to get you guys up to speed on how stuff works.

FLiP (Fusebox Life Cycle Process):
http://www.fusebox.org/index.cfm?fuseac ... erviewFLiP

To get a grasp of what places uses fusebox, here is a list:
http://www.cingo.com
http://www.myspace.com
http://www.ufc.com/
http://RoomsToGo.com
Many U.S. Senators (frist.senate.gov, specter.senate.gov, hagel, bunning, burr, etc., etc.)
Many U.S. Representatives & committees (linder.house.gov, jeffmiller, appropriations, etc.)
AT&T Business Internet Services Help Center (https://help.attbusiness.net/index.cfm? ... loads.home)
U.S. Government's EnergyStar program (http://www.energystar.gov) Canon in
South & Southeast Asia (JSP Fusebox) (http://www.canon-asia.com/index.jsp?fus ... italcamera)
NORAD (http://www.norad.mil)

Before you go nuts though, Fusebox is a programming methodology. You can use Coldfusion, PHP, ASP, and more.

Just so happens that I'm a PHP Fuseboxer in the professional world that makes and maintains http://www.cingo.com so I'm certainly not a newb, nor am I the greatest coder that ever lived. You can probably find me ranting on many PHP and Fusebox mailing lists discussing why flock() sucks ass on NFS.

All this being said, all I want out of this is a small, fun, technical demo. It will not be feature rich, it will not give you a blow job, it will make your mum proud. I figured it could be something fun to pass the time between Berserk releases for Evil_Genius and provide a challenge for me as a project to work on in my spare time between family, friends, work, and WoW. ^_^

Some of you are completely opposite timezones, so that would make it unrealistic to communicate effectively. Unfortunately my only native languages are English & Programming languages... so, it may be difficult at times because I like to drink.

EDIT: Split bad-mojo to the Interstice. Flame over there if necessary.

[psi29a]

Shatteredhalo has a new layout and design, the tech demo will follow the same layout. Sorry folks, no screen shots yet, gotta actually make something playable first.

Yes, the description on the landing page is where I would like this initial project to develop into. More suggestions the better, however don't feel discouraged if your ideas are not implemented.

If there are those that would like to contribute, by all means we welcome it. Concept artwork, pixel based art, general web-graphics design work would be great, otherwise I'll be forced to use stick-figures.