Berserk Chapter: 279

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Aeriel
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Post by Aeriel »

Istvan wrote:I actually think that the half-men are also familiars. Because they're also being controlled by other magicians, and they stop moving if you kill their controllers, as we saw in the escape from the city. I don't really see on the face of it why a half-human half-demon couldn't be used seen as a "living animal" in a way, and they really do seem identicle to all the other beasties the Kushan's have (except that they're a different species, obviously).
But they have completely different origin (as you said, another species), they are born from the union of humans and apostles, so they cannot be called familiars in the sense Schierke describes them.

Istvan wrote:As to the mist that rises from the dead magicians, while that could easily be the emperor giving them power, I wonder if it might also be the way that he controls them. I mean, he wouldn't want to risk them breaking away from him, so it wouldn't be surprising if he implanted a part of his power into them to make that impossible.
That theory can be correct, especially if you remember that Duke apostle. When he implanted a piece of himself inside that captain it was that piece of the Duke that was actually in controll. And those Kushan controllers all look like that magician from vol30, so they might be a real deal.
But it was also that piece that gave the captain apostle-like powers, so it is not unredonable to suggest that controllers to get some power from the mist...
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Post by Chaos_Wanderer »

I think the use of the term 'familiars' us being used to often. To me a familiar isn't as expendable as the Pawns the emperors forces are using. I've always considered a Master to have a powerful and nearly spiritual connection to its familiar and as a result, the master and familiar can feed off each other. The death of a familiar would be an incredibly traumatic event.
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Post by Istvan »

But they have completely different origin (as you said, another species), they are born from the union of humans and apostles, so they cannot be called familiars in the sense Schierke describes them.
All of the different criters have different origins by that definition. We have tigers, whalephants, elephant tipes, crocodiles, and the human version. I don't see why they couldn't all be produced and controlled the same way, which would be having pregnent females "infected" with the miasma of Apostles and then having them controlled by mages as "familiars".
I think the use of the term 'familiars' us being used to often. To me a familiar isn't as expendable as the Pawns the emperors forces are using. I've always considered a Master to have a powerful and nearly spiritual connection to its familiar and as a result, the master and familiar can feed off each other. The death of a familiar would be an incredibly traumatic event.
Traditionally, you'd be correct, a master would only be able to have one familiar, and generally if it died the master would die (or in a few cases have their power drastically reduced) but in the Berserk world this does not seem to be the case. Unless there was a mistranslation when Schierke was talking, it appears that famiars in the Berserk world are not nearly so deep a bond.
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Post by Aeriel »

Istvan wrote:All of the different criters have different origins by that definition. We have tigers, whalephants, elephant tipes, crocodiles, and the human version.
You know that that was not the definition I meant. Dhaka are born from females+apostles, pishacha are implanted with a spirit. They even have a different name.

Istvan wrote:I don't see why they couldn't all be produced and controlled the same way, which would be having pregnent females "infected" with the miasma of Apostles and then having them controlled by mages as "familiars".
Well, no logical reason why it shouldn't be that way. It is only that Miura said differently :wink:

Istvan wrote:Traditionally, you'd be correct, a master would only be able to have one familiar, and generally if it died the master would die (or in a few cases have their power drastically reduced) but in the Berserk world this does not seem to be the case. Unless there was a mistranslation when Schierke was talking, it appears that famiars in the Berserk world are not nearly so deep a bond.
Miura has a knack for taking various history events and myths and, after some adaptation, incorporating them into his Berserk world. This is the case with trolls, witches, demons, familiars, etc. Hell, I first was confused by what Schrieke said, as the only contact with the word 'familiar' I had was while playing wizards and sorcerers in Dungeons and Dragons :) and there too goes the principle of one master - one familiar, tight bond, magical creature, etc. But this is Miura's world, and who are we to tell him what should be and what shouldn't?
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Post by Istvan »

You know that that was not the definition I meant. Dhaka are born from females+apostles, pishacha are implanted with a spirit. They even have a different name.
We haven't actually seen how the Pishacha are born, only the Dhaka. While it's true that the pishacha are totally controlled by mages (that's what you mean by the implanted spirit, right?) the same is equally true of the Dhaka, hence the fact that they also freeze when their controller dies. They also revert back to looking like regular humans when killed. That's why I think they might just be the same as the Pishacha, except humans instead of animals.
Well, no logical reason why it shouldn't be that way. It is only that Miura said differently
Could you tell me exactly what you're looking at for this claim? I'd like to see exactly what Miura said about this.
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Post by Jon Maitreya »

From what I recall, in the scene where the Dhaka are created, Rakshas says "if you throw a pregnant woman in there teh child recieves a demonic spirit." I fail to see why this is or should be any different from 'implanting spirits' in other animals, as they seems to essentially mean exactly the same thing.
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Post by Aeriel »

While it's true that the pishacha are totally controlled by mages (that's what you mean by the implanted spirit, right?)
No, controll is one thing, implanting is another.

Could you tell me exactly what you're looking at for this claim? I'd like to see exactly what Miura said about this.

What I meant is that animal familiars are clearly not borne out of female body.

After reading yours and Jon's posts, I relooked the 233th chapter I must say that I agree, I have indeed overlooked that statement. So, your theories may be right. We shall know more in some future chapters, perhaps :)
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Post by Istvan »

Indeed, only Miura knows for sure, so until Miura decides to tell us, all we can do is speculate. It just seemed to me that there was no logical reason that the means of creation for all of them couldn't be similiar.
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Post by Aeriel »

Istvan wrote:Indeed, only Miura knows for sure, so until Miura decides to tell us, all we can do is speculate.

As we have all the time in the world till chapter 280, why not spend it speculating? :D :wink:

Istvan wrote:It just seemed to me that there was no logical reason that the means of creation for all of them couldn't be similiar.
And you were most probably right.
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Post by JeDi »

you guys really great !! THANKS A LOT GUYS !! YOU'RE THE BEST !!!
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Post by Dark_Zilo »

JeDi wrote:you guys really great !! THANKS A LOT GUYS !! YOU'RE THE BEST !!!
that was not really necessary but i guess even so Evil-Genious apreciate it.
Istvan wrote:Indeed, only Miura knows for sure, so until Miura decides to tell us, all we can do is speculate. It just seemed to me that there was no logical reason that the means of creation for all of them couldn't be similiar.
Of course only Miura knows, and even if we know that he's always throwing us some curve balls, we can always try to guess what's in his mind.
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Post by Istvan »

Yep, and not only is speculating fun in its own right, you get massive bragging rights if your speculations turn out to be correct, especially in the rare cases where everyone else (or almost everyone) was wrong. That's never yet been the case with me, but I can always hope for the future, right?
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Post by Aeriel »

Well, I guess that goes for everybody. Bragging is just so good :D

BTW, why don't you have an avatar, Istvan?
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Post by Eldo »

Istvan wrote:Yep, and not only is speculating fun in its own right, you get massive bragging rights if your speculations turn out to be correct, especially in the rare cases where everyone else (or almost everyone) was wrong. That's never yet been the case with me, but I can always hope for the future, right?
The only time I got anything right was by stating the obvious. Heh. Yeah.

However, speculation must have some sort of evidence to back it up. Otherwise, it's just some nut talking out of his arse. His name was Phoenix.
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Post by Istvan »

Well of course it needs basis. Generally, to have any hope of being correct, beyond pure, random, guesses (which are extremely unlikely to be correct) you need to base your assumptions on something. Also, if you hope to convince others that you're right you need to be able to have at least a modicum of logic on your side. And of course should you turn out to, in fact, be right, it helps for bragging if you can convince other people that your stance wasn't just a random guess.
BTW, why don't you have an avatar, Istvan?
No real reason, I've just never been motivated enough to go out and get one.
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Post by Aeriel »

Else, there is always the Stupid Theories thread. There, you could guess all you like AND brag that you were right! :D

Phoenix? :?:
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Post by Skullkracker »

Aeriel wrote:Phoenix? :?:
You might have missed the guy...he is the latest member to get himself banned. Shit happens :twisted:
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Post by Grahf »

Nice discussion going here guys.

I agree with the earlier poster in saying that this battle is the finale to this arc for sure. one the emperor is hurting from the earlier encounter and two this just seems like the place to end this arc.

Guts leaving the mainland, huge battle upcoming and somewhat of an alliance was made if I could call it that (gutts and zodd).

well my two cents.
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Post by Istvan »

It wouldn't be surprising if it marked the end of the arc, but I will be very surprised if it marks the end of the Kushans. I expect them to stick around for a while yet.
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Post by LordMune »

Eldo wrote:Otherwise, it's just some nut talking out of his arse. His name was Phoenix.
Completely off-topic but relevant; I recently brought up his ban in an MSN conversation, and he started talking crazy about not breaking rules in nazi germany or somesuch. :wtf:
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Post by Dark_Zilo »

Grahf wrote:Nice discussion going here guys.

I agree with the earlier poster in saying that this battle is the finale to this arc for sure. one the emperor is hurting from the earlier encounter and two this just seems like the place to end this arc.

Guts leaving the mainland, huge battle upcoming and somewhat of an alliance was made if I could call it that (gutts and zodd).

well my two cents.
Istvan wrote:It wouldn't be surprising if it marked the end of the arc, but I will be very surprised if it marks the end of the Kushans. I expect them to stick around for a while yet.

I think you and everyone else expects that! But like Graph said... The end of the Arc is near.
I for one think the nest 2-3 chapters will be somewhat soft. Probably a chance to get some characters developed further
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Post by Istvan »

Really? I expected the next few chapters to be very hard, a.k.a. basically dealing with the huge battle that started last chapter between the Kushan main army and the Vatican alliance. That ought to take at least three or four chapters, and I wouldn't be surprised at more. After that, I wouldn't be surprised by a few chapters of character development, and the like.
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Post by Aeriel »

I agree. Though that 'character development' will most probably take place within Neo-Hawks camp, just like in vol27...
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Post by azzydakiller »

i kinda agree with grahf and dark zilo... this last chapter seemed like a resolution to the arch
some might disagree becouse theres a giant battle looming but all the main characters are gone and the battle seems rather one sided....

ill bet that the next chapter will be about gutts and company on a boat having some lighthearted conversations, and the like...
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Post by Grahf »

Oopps when I say next couple of chapters, I actually meant about volume or so. Then again there really doesn't have to be any kind of major battle. We could just get one of those important engagments of the battle itself. Which then shows the defeat or the events leading up to the Emperors defeat. Assuming that he isn't killed like Istvan was saying.

But in the next arc I agree there might be some major development with the Neo Band of the Hawk. At least for the first volume or so. Then perhaps we will get to see Caska come back to "life". So when I was hoping that around Xmas to see Caska back I wasn't that far off. Perhaps Xmas 07 :(
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