Sexual orientation 'affected by number of older brothers'

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MrFelony
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Sexual orientation 'affected by number of older brothers'

Post by MrFelony »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/gayrights/sto ... 01,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/5120004.stm
The Guardian wrote:"Only biological older brothers, and not any other sibling characteristic, including non-biological older brothers, predicted men's sexual orientation, regardless of the amount of time reared with these siblings," Dr Bogaert said in a paper published in yesterday's edition of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS).
In an accompanying article, David Puts of Michigan State University, said that this strengthens the notion that the common denominator between biological brothers, the mother, provides a prenatal environment that fosters homosexuality in her younger sons. One possible explanation is that after giving birth to a first son, the mother may develop maternal antibodies directed against male-specific proteins. These might then disrupt development of the younger son, says Dr Puts.
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Post by Daedelus »

The worst part of this whole thing? This 'research' came from MSU (my school). It's embarrassing. I'd be willing to bet for every homosexual younger brother you find that has many biological older brothers, you'll find the oldest brother being homosexual in another family.

Sorry, just don't buy it.
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Post by Killfile »

Augh! Research I don't like! Rather than attempting to read and understand it, I'll simply shove my fingers into my ears and sing loudly.

LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA!!!!!!!!!!

What the fuck is that about? PhD level work in a complex and difficult field, published, reviewed, scrutinized, and evaluated then vetted by a community of professionals and your response is "I don't buy it?"
Carthago delenda est!

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Post by vtwahoo »

Daedelus wrote:The worst part of this whole thing? This 'research' came from MSU (my school). It's embarrassing. I'd be willing to bet for every homosexual younger brother you find that has many biological older brothers, you'll find the oldest brother being homosexual in another family.

Sorry, just don't buy it.
You appear to have missed the point of the study. The research (and I don't know why you put it in quotation marks---you may disagree with the conclusions but unless you've seen the entire study and know of serious methodological or substantive errors, you should have a little more respect for the researchers themselves AND those that peer reviewed the research---particularly since one of the initial publishers comes from your own university) suggests a higher correlation between male homosexuality and the presence of older brothers. Your comment ignores the "why?/so what?" and jumps straight to the "but I think that you'd probably be able to find exceptions."

Like you, I have concerns about the reasoning communicated by this article. It appears to insinuate that the study demontrates that sexual preference is determined by environmental factors rather than by birth or biology (the old nurture/nature debate).

This conclusion concerns me becuase it's a throw-back to the old assumption that homosexuality is "un-natural." For centuries civilizations have cast norms in terms of "nature" as a way to reify difference. Europeans did so when they argued that Africans were "naturally" inferior to Europeans. And these bigoted perceptions have often been grounded in scientific research.

In the current political environment (remember, the Senate recently failed to pass a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage), this study could be used to demonstrate that homosexuality is the "fault" of parents or gay individuals themselves and could form the foundation for a variety of legal measures...from bans on gay marriage to guilt-campaigns against working moms.

That being said, newspapers have a tendency to simplify academic research beyond the point of recognition and, with deference to the researchers in question, I'd like to see the full study, including methodology.
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Post by arke »

vtwahoo wrote:Like you, I have concerns about the reasoning communicated by this article. It appears to insinuate that the study demontrates that sexual preference is determined by environmental factors rather than by birth or biology (the old nurture/nature debate).
Funny, I got the opposite idea. Admittedly, it appears they're stating the a given homosexual person might/would not be homosexual if they were born as the first child, but I'm not seeing them state that it's nurture or give weight to that idea.
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Post by Starnum »

Well, I don't know the entire study, so I won't outright call it bunk. However, as the youngest of three boys, and heterosexual, I am a bit skeptical of what I do know of it. Meanwhile, I know a guy who has two olders sisters, and he's gay. I also know a gay guy who's the oldest of his siblings. I really don't know what determines homosexuality. I've heard arguments for both sides of the environment/nature argument. I use to think it was a matter of choice, but after long conversations with some of my gay friends, who say they were born as such, I'm not really sure.

Oh, and Africans being inferior to Europeans, how silly. Everyone knows that black folk are athletically and rhythmically superior. :P
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Post by Wandering_Mystic »

Starnum wrote:Oh, and Africans being inferior to Europeans, how silly. Everyone knows that black folk are athletically and rhythmically superior. :P
lol, sounds like a great Peterism from Family Guy! I hope everyone who reads that realizes the sarcasm in the above quote.

My gut tells me that it can be both nature and nurture, so it has to be true. The "factinistas" would probably clamor to see the actual study before rendering judgement on the issue, but rendering spontaneous judgement on a matter with as much ignorance as possible about the issue is an American pastime and God help me if I don't defend heroes like Daedelus who would embody that age-old patriotic tradition. [/truthiness]
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Post by Albator »

For those being interested, here is the article in question (hope you don't need a subscription)
http://www.pnas.org and go check the latest (june 28 ) on-line edition.
I am not really interested in it, but I must say that PNAS is a good journal for this type of studies, which generally end-up in behavorial or specialized reviews. PNAS is widely known and read within the scientific community. And this article has not been pushed in, as it sometines happend in PNAS (you know, editors friends...).

My point being, it seems serious.
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Post by psi29a »

Albator wrote:For those being interested, here is the article in question (hope you don't need a subscription)
http://www.pnas.org and go check the latest (june 28 ) on-line edition.
I am not really interested in it, but I must say that PNAS is a good journal for this type of studies, which generally end-up in behavorial or specialized reviews. PNAS is widely known and read within the scientific community. And this article has not been pushed in, as it sometines happend in PNAS (you know, editors friends...).

My point being, it seems serious.
Hehehehehe, he said PNAS.... what a wonderful name for a science journal.
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Post by vtwahoo »

arke wrote:Admittedly, it appears they're stating the a given homosexual person might/would not be homosexual if they were born as the first child, but I'm not seeing them state that it's nurture or give weight to that idea.
You might be right...it's very possible that I'm paranoid.

I'd like to think that this study could serve as evidence that homosexuals do not choose their sexuality and are entitled to the same civil and human rights and liberties as heterosexuals. I worry, however, that it will be used as evidence that homosexuality is "unnatural" and thus "they" (homosexuals) do not merit the same rights as "us" (heterosexuals).

I was honing in on the statement that a mother may develop antibodies that "disrupt the development of the younger son." The logical conclusion is that homosexuality is somehow an "unnatural" occurance. This article speaks to a "prenatal environment that fosters homosexuality in her younger sons" which seems to pack a double punch---first that homosexuals are created by an unnatural "disrpution" in the prenatal environment and moreover that homosexuality is the mother's fault.

Extending the nature v. nurture debate in this way (to the prenatal environment and the disrupted development of homosexual children) may, admitedly, be a stretch. But it's not one that I'd put past the anti-gay interests in this country and it was the first concern I had upon reading this article. I'm always worried when the term "environment" is used in this context and it is possible that I ovverreacted. However, if this can be framed as "proof" that homosexuality is an unnatural occurance, it may flame the homophobic bigotry in this country.
Psi wrote:Hehehehehe, he said PNAS.
Oh dear god...
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Post by Albator »

psi29a wrote: Hehehehehe, he said PNAS.... what a wonderful name for a science journal.
Probably another english pun that I don't get :?

Stands for Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (of the USA).

And for what I'm gathering this is looking at intimates molecular processes, so it might favor the "naturally induced" hypothesis as opposed to the nurtured one. But again, since the study just establishes a correlation, the 2 sides could use that thing to justify their positions either way (and you stated very well the arguments that the "unnatural homosexuality" side could use).
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Post by psi29a »

Albator wrote:
psi29a wrote: Hehehehehe, he said PNAS.... what a wonderful name for a science journal.
Probably another english pun that I don't get :?

Stands for Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (of the USA).
Just say it out loud and proud! Homosexuals love a big juicy PNAS. 8)
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Post by Albator »

Alrighty 8)
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Post by LordMune »

Starnum wrote:I use to think it was a matter of choice,
I hear this a lot in 'gay' debates in other forums, and I wonder what the reasoning behind it is.
The most obvious conclusion is that the person who thought up the argument probably harbors some repressed homosexual tendencies, as any "fully" straight male who has tried to choose to be attracted to other men probably find it difficult, if not impossible.
This is a general question-statement, mind, not directed at anyone in particular.
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Post by Femto »

I used to think that people "turn" gay (for lack of a better word), but then I realized that I didn't "turn" into a heterosexual, I was born that way.

So much for intelligent design.

:kekeke:

PS: Buzkashi is hella gay.

PPS: The article in question sounded stupid until I read the "antibodies against male specific proteins" stuff. It's interesting but I can't say it holds true to any of the people I've met.

PPPS: The "repressed homosexual" thing Mune mentioned is retarded.

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Post by psi29a »

There are two points of view to this depending on how you stand:

God made you and everything around you that we call nature, if homsexuality can be found in nature, then God made them for a reason. Who are _YOU_ to call God's plan wrong.

and...

Homosexuality is found in nature all the time, according to Darwin theory of evolution Homosexuality should have bread itself out of existance because we all know that two homosexuals can not produce offspring. So is Darwin wrong? It needs some serious re-thinking because there are many animals that know the difference between having sex, effection,love and then breeding. They prefer homosexual relationships but also know that they must breed in order to survive. WOW.

I'll dig up a paper I read later for you all to digest. Matter of fact, my wife the biology major that she is wrote a good piece for her practicum about homosexuality in nature.

Anyone else get the Deje Vu from reading the article and their direction of research similiar to X-Men 3 ? If homosexuality gets defined as disease, and they create a cure. Is it really a disease? How long before it becomes a matter of the courts?
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Post by Starnum »

LordMune wrote:
Starnum wrote:I use to think it was a matter of choice,
I hear this a lot in 'gay' debates in other forums, and I wonder what the reasoning behind it is.
The most obvious conclusion is that the person who thought up the argument probably harbors some repressed homosexual tendencies, as any "fully" straight male who has tried to choose to be attracted to other men probably find it difficult, if not impossible.
This is a general question-statement, mind, not directed at anyone in particular.
Uh-huh. Well, what I meant was...
Femto wrote:I used to think that people "turn" gay
Yeah, that's what I meant. However, I don't think that way anymore. That was before I knew anything about it, or put any thought into it. Gay people tell me they were born that way, so I'll take their word for it. Makes enough sense to me.
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Post by Daedelus »

Killfile wrote:Augh! Research I don't like! Rather than attempting to read and understand it, I'll simply shove my fingers into my ears and sing loudly.

LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA!!!!!!!!!!

What the fuck is that about? PhD level work in a complex and difficult field, published, reviewed, scrutinized, and evaluated then vetted by a community of professionals and your response is "I don't buy it?"
Yep. My opinion is still "I don't buy it." Sorry if you have problems coming to terms that I may have an opinion that doesn't agree with some research that has been done.
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Post by Femto »

I "don't buy" evolution.

I "don't buy" into dinosaurs either.

Both may be sound theories that have been researched extensively, but I'm of the opinion that they are untrue.

...

Dumbass.
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Post by Quest »

psi29a wrote:
God made you and everything around you that we call nature, if homsexuality can be found in nature, then God made them for a reason. Who are _YOU_ to call God's plan wrong.
or....
God gave everyone freewill. and people choose their destiny. everyone does what they want and its part of God's plan for people to do the 'right' or 'wrong' things.
psi29a wrote:
Homosexuality is found in nature all the time, according to Darwin theory of evolution Homosexuality should have bread itself out of existance because we all know that two homosexuals can not produce offspring. So is Darwin wrong?
or...
the concept of memes persist. a trait useless to society as it may be is nonetheless passed from generation to generation because it can. how can homosexuality exist if it is not a trait that can be passed down reproductively(via DNA) and should have been 'bred out of the gene pool'? because it is like a culture, religion or science- it is an idea. a trait that needs not be replicated by physical reproduction but rather is alive in people's minds.
that is, homosexuality is not "born with", it is "thought with".
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Post by Albator »

No offense Quest, but if you start talking about traits then what you just said is a huge nonsense. I'm not going to go into a genetics course, but just 2 points:
- traits are not selected by society but by a race. Bigger picture, a trait can be selected against in one society but not another from the same race.
Environmental factors etc.
- the 'bred out because useless' argument is far too limiting. There's cases, like thalassemia, where a recessive allele (understand lethal) can be conservated within the population at high frequencies because heterozygotes (carrying one copy of the "lethal" and one of the "normal" gene) have a selective advantage (protecction against paludism).
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Post by Shisho »

Sounds like some fag denial.

See guy's it's a maternal reaction to prevent over population.

I'm pretty sure sex orientation is driven by hormones, call me stupid, but you're born with those mechanisms in your brain that make you attracted to certain people. Otherwise you could probably explain what it is about women (or men if you're gay, cause I'm sure some of you are) you like so much.

Hormone regulation would be genetic. If it was really a choice you really think people want to be ridiculed and outcasts in society for some dick?

God, I remember highschool, I'm suprised I didn't rape a bunch of girls. I had serious libido issues, also read something else interesting lately related to it. Apparently it's linked to migraines, which I had a lot of those too. They say it's the same hormone that triggers the migraine from it being hyperactive. Well anyway, thank god I don't have those head aches anymore and also not controlled by my dick (as much).
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Post by Quest »

Albator wrote:No offense Quest, but if you start talking about traits then what you just said is a huge nonsense. I'm not going to go into a genetics course, but just 2 points:
- traits are not selected by society but by a race. Bigger picture, a trait can be selected against in one society but not another from the same race.
Environmental factors etc.
- the 'bred out because useless' argument is far too limiting. There's cases, like thalassemia, where a recessive allele (understand lethal) can be conservated within the population at high frequencies because heterozygotes (carrying one copy of the "lethal" and one of the "normal" gene) have a selective advantage (protecction against paludism).
i think you misunderstood my statements.
i was not singling out homosexuality as a "gene" trait, it is a "meme" trait. it is not written into the genes because it is not a "physical" trait like skin colour or chin shape. it is an "idealogical" trait like religion or culture(like you said, an environmental cause.

homosexuals cannot reproduce, so how can this trait be "bred out of" or "bred into" the gene pool when they cannot breed at all? that was my point.
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Post by psi29a »

Problem with that line of thinking is that in nature we find many animals who mate/breed to perpetuate the species but would rather show effection and lust towards those of their same sex.

The Darwin theory is right out because it doesn't address that animals can have fuck buddies. Female baboons for example will fuck (for lack of a better of term) each other widly, but will pasivly submit to male dominance in order to breed. When everything is said and done they go back to getting each other off lesbian-bestial style.

So, 'breeding out' the gene is none-sense. :P You breed to make your species live on, you lust and hold companion-ship with those you find acceptance with.
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Post by Quest »

yea thats my message: you can "breed into or out of" physical traits in the gene pool but idealogical traits is replicated via the mind.

thats why they say ideas cannot be stopped by bullets.
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