2 Trillion Dollars

[Killfile]

While Psi is waiting for an answer from ucrzymofo87, I'd like to add a few more items to the list. Not to hold your feet to the fire (something Dick Cheney would approve of, though John McCain would think differently) but I've compiled a bit of a list.

The following are points which have been made and defended which no one has been able to refute in any substantive way:

It would have been cheaper to have just paid the Iraqis to leave
Iraq is of historically less significance than any other conflict of its size we've been in
Victory in Iraq will not mean the end of Radical Islam
Iraq was not involved in 9-11
Iraq has left us militarily unequipped to confront Iran
The willingness of the Right to use words like "Treason" constitutes an abdication of moral and political responsibility
The war in Iraq is a failure, even next to the public education system - which you view with such indignation
You clearly have no concept of pre WWII British military history
The United States has trained terrorists both overseas and right in our own back yard.
Neither the Right, nor you personally, have any idea how to deal with Iran or any other enemy that can actually shoot back.
In the entirety of human history, democracy has yet to be implanted artificially with any modicum of long term success.

The following is a list of things that you keep saying, but can't seem to back up with any sources that can withstand scrutiny beyond what a 12 year old could give them:
We're winning the war in Iraq
The international community trusts us
The Democratic party and the Left want defeat in Iraq

I eagerly await your response, though I expect little more than tumbleweeds....

[psi29a]

After reading the last couple pages, we (all of us, not some of us) have gotten a bit personal with snipes.

Hopefully we can dig ourselves out, and get back to discourse without the name calling.

[Killfile]

Personal insults? NEVER! I'm just appauled! Who would, oh.... right. Yea, sorry about that.

[vtwahoo]

Denis Kucinich the former Presidential candidate from Ohio thinks we are.

Fascinating as that is, I didn't ask what Kucinich thought. I asked if you were suggesting that the US military was targeting and killing innocent civilians.

And if you are, I'd ask you to explain why.

[panasonic]

three ppl that are very knowledged about american history, politics etc vs a dude that has some trouble with reading comprehension...

[isse-pisse-päron-pung]

I think about 97% of those who gets killed in a war is civilians.

[MrFelony]

well being americans we tend to talk from an american perspective. cant blame us a whole lot but it is good to remember (or be reminded) that we are not the only ones fighting. what about all the dead innocent iraqi's or the doctors who are being targeted by radical groups. I tend to think from a countries perspective as a whole, the loss of 2000 men really isnt a whole lot for a country like the US .

another flaw of comparing this war to the ones of the past is just medical care. the soldiers treated in this war have much better care and disease prevention. a very large percentage of the peopel who died in the civil war died because of disease and infection

Are you HIGH? What do you think they're packing? The Death Star? They can fly planes into buildings, and if they're really lucky (and I mean really, really, really lucky) take out Los Angeles with a small nuclear device. I can't imagine that ANYONE from the right wing would consider the nuclear incineration of Los Angeles as even BAD for Western Civilization.

funniest thing i've read this thread
sorry fro coming on board late

[ucrzymofo87]

Denis Kucinich the former Presidential candidate from Ohio thinks we are.

Fascinating as that is, I didn't ask what Kucinich thought. I asked if you were suggesting that the US military was targeting and killing innocent civilians.

And if you are, I'd ask you to explain why.

I know we are not targeting civilians. If we so desired we could have turned Baghdad into a dust factory, but we did not.

Here is precision bombing gone right I wonder if the media and the Democrats will give President Bush the credit or the drunk chimps running the military credit?

[ZoddsNo1Fan]

Thats the estimated cost, not the extual cost spent yet. And about asking people to move to another, cheaper country. First off, this is the greatest country in the world. The only truely free contry in this world. People with no money are flocking to the borders daily in hopes to live the american dream.


What your implying isnt very matter of factual considering the vast majority actualy would not take the offer. It would be smarter to save your money, then afer a couple years, sell everything you have and move to another country. Even then, youl have no family, friends, or contacts, youl be living in 3rd world countries/not as blessed country, where there arnt every day freedoms of america. Where if you screw up on one thing you not going to be able to get a lawer. You wont have an opinion or be able to protest given the fact that if you did, youd be executed/imprisoned. No protesting gay rights or abortion. No protesting your career in life, and no protesting about what the government does with their money.

Would half of this country take that offer? no, would 95 percent take that offer. No.

What we are spending on Iraq is less than what we have spent on public education. And public education is yielding worse results than the Iraq war.

Really? Damn... 2200 kids have been killed and more than 16,000 wounded in our schools in the last few years?

Obviously Iraq is less effective than the public schools as an educational program. It's had a 33% success rate as far as teaching countries not to screw with us.

Screwing with the US since Iraq: Iran, N. Korea
Stopped screwing with US: Libia

Damn -- LA high schools have better grad rates than that.

Please, the 3 thousand lives is nothing to what we are trying to achieve over in Iraq. And who are you to feel sorry for the soldiers who die for their contry? they swore an oath, and proudly gave their lives for what our commander in cheif/officers ordered them to do.

And whats with this 16,000 wounded in our schools in the past years. Millions die each year from heart disease. thousands die each year of cancer, car wrecks, and STDs. Dont start with this sorry for the 3 thousand soldiers who die valiantly for their country. They rest with their fathers, and will be forever heros to this country.

oh and by the way...their not kids, they are proud men and women.

[panasonic]

are you a english american, if so, for the love of god, spell properly. in case you dont know, people generally disregard the argument of one that isnt able to spell

[psi29a]

Spellcheck is something that I've built into the forums, not something that came 'pre-made'. I hope it gets used on a regular basis.

Too bad it doesn't grammer check, that is out of my league at the moment.

[ucrzymofo87]

It would have been cheaper to have just paid the Iraqis to leave

There's a genius idea.

Iraq is of historically less significance than any other conflict of its size we've been in

American soldiers and generals who you call 'drunk [sic, should be 'drunken'] chimps,' as well as other scholarly individuals like Tony Blankley, disagree with you.

Victory in Iraq will not mean the end of Radical Islam

It certainly will not help Radical Islam's cause.

Iraq was not involved in 9-11

They certainly trained terrorists

Iraq has left us militarily unequipped to confront Iran

Oh, really?! Then why is this happening?

The willingness of the Right to use words like "Treason" constitutes an abdication of moral and political responsibility

I've never used the word treason, neither has George W. Bush. In fact, Dick Cheney said the debate on Iraq is necessary. Pull your head out of your ass.

The war in Iraq is a failure, even next to the public education system - which you view with such indignation

If you can view these stories and have pride in public education...wow.
Public schools get bad grades
Public Schools Are Cheating the Children
Stupid in America
12 million languish in failing public schools, report says
Our Failing Public Schools

You clearly have no concept of pre WWII British military history

More than you'll ever know

The United States has trained terrorists both overseas and right in our own back yard.

So? We still have the right to kill them if they try to kill us.

Neither the Right, nor you personally, have any idea how to deal with Iran or any other enemy that can actually shoot back.

Wrong again. This plan sure beats military action

In the entirety of human history, democracy has yet to be implanted artificially with any modicum of long term success.

You cannot implant democracy. It is learned. The Iraqi people have shown that they want to engage in the vote, which you and I take for granted. They have voted for their own government, adopted a Constitution, and the US has cut troop deployments to Iraq. Those events lead anyone with half a piece of sense to think that something must be going right over there. We are winning. And it's not just me who is saying that.

ZoddsNo1fan's grammar is A LOT better than some of the twits who've tried to type English.

[panasonic]

you're just trying to defend someone with the same belief. and i said his grammar is bad for an american. people have a right to say his english is bad if that is his mother tongue.

and many of those "twits" you talk about have english as second a language. in fact, it is my second language.

furthermore, the US being the best country in the world is highly arguable, considering his arguments. in canada, we have all those things he mentioned, except our public education is decent. and to top that off we're not in an ill prepared war.

[vtwahoo]

And about asking people to move to another, cheaper country. First off, this is the greatest country in the world. The only truely free contry in this world. People with no money are flocking to the borders daily in hopes to live the american dream.

And whats with this 16,000 wounded in our schools in the past years. Millions die each year from heart disease. thousands die each year of cancer, car wrecks, and STDs. Dont start with this sorry for the 3 thousand soldiers who die valiantly for their country. They rest with their fathers, and will be forever heros to this country.

Wow. You know what amazes me. You came up with all of that without actually reading what Killfile wrote. Allow me to enlighten you.

Killfile was not suggesting that you pay Americans to move to another country. He was saying that the US government could have paid each Iraqi citizen to move out of Iraq and STILL spent less money than will have to spend on this war. It was a joke...a funny...sarcastic.

And the part about the schools...geez...do you READ??? Killfile was responding to the assertion that we spend more money on our public schools than we have in Iraq but that our Iraqi operations are more successful. He was pointing out that, to the contrary, our public schools have not seen 16,000 wounded kids (as in students...you know...the ones that GO to schools) in the last year. Again...a funny...and yet as teacher appropriate since, last I checked, our schools are doing WAY better than our troops in Iraq. I think it's better leadership.

Furthermore, you may want to be careful when quoting cancer statistics at Killfile...he can get a little touchy about that.

"They rest with their fathers and will be forever heros to this country"???? Just out of curiosity, can you name any of these heros? What have you done to improve the lives of their widows/widowers and children? Have you donated your time to mentor children of soldiers killed in war? Have you helped their spouses find jobs, child care, etc.? Have you done anything to help the thousands of disabled veterans who have returned from Iraq? (Have you done anything to help the THOUSANDS of Vietnam veterans who live in the streets of our nation's capital???) I get really sick of people who say that liberals hate America and hate soldiers and don't understand the cause these soldiers gave their lives for yet do nothing to ease the suffering of the ones they left behind.

Our soldiers are heros. They were sent by their country to die in a war that should never have happened. They were lied to. They were manipulated. But they fought because they believed that they were creating a better world. I teach a lot of the cadets who will become those soldiers. They're good people, heroes in their own right. I know their names and they know what they're fighting for. I disagree with the war but at the end of the day I just want them to come home alive and safe. They know this and yet NOT ONE of them has had the audacity to call me what many others have...a terrorist sympathizer, an America-hater, a treasonist.

And do you want to meet some other heros? Try meeting the liberal, progressive, "Anti-Americans" who are giving their time and money to make those sacrifices mean something, to protect and serve the people that those heros left behind. Look at the teachers in our "failing" public schools (who were identified by the Secretary of Education as "terrorists"...gee...thanks). Look at the lawyers who donate their time to help soldiers' families keep their houses or execute wills.

If you believe so deeply in the cause of the soldiers in Iraq then pick up a gun and man a post. Swear an oath and follow the orders of your Commander in Chief. because, you see, the leaders of this country and the pro-war activists are very quick to send other people's sons and daughters to die overseas. They're very quick to make martyrs of someone else's kid. But they're not sending their own children and they're not going themselves.

And that is the most pathetic thing of all.

My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.

[ucrzymofo87]

The reason Canada has no huge military presence is because of the United States. The United States protects Canada voluntarily, even though many of their citizens seem to hate us back.

Edit: vtwahoo, are you Killfile's wife? Also, ours is a volunteer army, no one is sending their kids to die. They are choosing to join the military.

[Killfile]

I still object to all the glitz and glamour we give our precision bombing capability.

Let’s be honest about it here. Precision bombing was an outgrowth of American Accuracy Doctrine during the Cold War - the idea that if you could hit a target well, you didn't need to drop lots of bombs or pack huge socking nukes onto the ends of your missiles.

This is well and good - except that we've blown it out of proportion. With words like "surgical strike" and "laser guided" and "precision bombing" we get the impression that we're capable of doing things we're not.

Precision bombing can't take out a Volkswagen. It can take out a Volkswagen PLANT, but not a Volkswagen. Similarly, if "freedom fighters," "insurgents," "terrorists," or "jihadists" are holed up in a 3rd flood apartment - we can't take out the apartment, but we can take out the building.

Realize that when we talk about precision bombing we're not talking about Fed-Ex delivering a cherry bomb to Osama Bin Laden. We're talking about 2,000 lbs of Tritonal in a steel shell, plummeting to earth at hundreds of feet per second. It detonates in a fireball, with a shockwave moving a several times the speed of sound reducing the target building to dust and sending an overpressure wave crushing glass, concrete, and bone for hundreds of yards in every direction.

That's precision bombing. It's not a scalpel and we would be wise to remember that. For every terrorist we target, we kill dozens of innocents. It's a loosing game - and a lesson we should have learned 30 years ago.

You can not win a gorilla war with air superiority.

[vtwahoo]

It [the Iraqi conflict] certainly will not help Radical Islam's cause.

If you can view these stories and have pride in public education...wow.

First, could you please tell me, what, in your opinion, IS Radical Islam's "cause"?

Second, have you ever taught in a public school? Guess what...I did. And I'm very proud of public education. But if you're not then go to school, get a fucking teaching degree, and take your place in the trenches.

If you're not part of the solution you're contributing to the problem.

Perhaps the time has come for a thread on public education.

[Killfile]

So I found this AP article (linked from soul-sucking-registration-required New York Times) which talks a lot about all those brave young men who are willingly volunteering to go off and die for their country in a far off land for a war with no defined objectives.

WASHINGTON, Jan. 18 (AP) - After falling well short of its recruiting goals last year, the Army has set even higher monthly targets for this summer, hoping that new financial incentives will attract high school and college graduates despite continuing deaths in Iraq.

From June to September, the Army will try to recruit 8,600 to 10,400 soldiers a month.

To help reach those goals, a new law will allow the Army to give larger financial bonuses for enlistments and re-enlistments, doubling the maximum payment to $40,000 for new active-duty recruits and to $20,000 for reservists. It will also raise the top age for recruits to 42 from 35. And the top re-enlistment bonus for active-duty soldiers will increase to $90,000 from $60,000.

We hear a lot from ucrymofo and the Bush administration that the War is going well and that we're "winning in Iraq" but if that's the case - why is the war so unpopular at home? We hear about how "Iraq trained terrorists" yet no one seems to want to go to war there to take revenge for the lives lost on Sept 11. Fortunately, ucrzymofo still has nearly 24 years to volunteer for service in Iraq. The Bush sisters, incidently, have about 20 years to sign up and support their father's war. Incidently, Dick Cheney's daughter is also still young enough to serve, but sadly her public homosexuality prevents her from serving her country.

It all seems very inconsistent. How can we be winning in Iraq when there exists no clear cut set of objectives? Where is the "do all this and we can go home" list?

Following that: a few quick rebuttals.
1 - (Almost) no one cares what Tony Blankley thinks about the long term historical impact of the Iraq conflict. It is very difficult to demonstrate a war as just when you can not explain what it would take to consider it a victory.

2 - A victory for the US in Iraq would probably help "Radical Islam's" cause... certainly Osama Bin Laden's cause, more than you know. I join vtwahoo in this -- do you know what "Radical Islam's" cause is?

3 - Iraq training terrorists does not justify going to war with it. The United States trains terrorists. Are we going to start bombing ourselves next?

4 - You cited a link in which the US is "planning" a strike on Iran. My grandmother could plan a strike on Iran. Executing it is another matter altogether. Dealing with the consequences of that strike is yet more difficult than executing it.

5 - Public education, with every problem it might have, is far superior to the alternative. If you dislike how our schools are teaching our children might I suggest taking up a career in Education or volunteering in an inner city school?

6 - I note that you don't seem to care if the US trains terrorists, but you are willing to rain high explosives on hapless civilians if some other country does it. That's very big of you.

7 - Iran isn't going to agree to Russia's plan because Iran needs to separate itself from Russia's historical influence in the region. Moreover, it needs to assert itself as a counterbalance to Israeli nuclear power. The Bush/Putin plan is a nice thought -but it's a pipe dream.

8 - I have said once, and I'll say again, that voting does not a democratic system make and elections do not mean that the fundamental ideals that underlie a system of government are changing to bring about government based upon the rule of law. You can post links to Faux News all you want... it doesn't change that very fundamental fact.

9 - Bringing Dr. Blumenfeld (spelling may be off) to the table with his essay calling anti-war sympathizers treasonous and then saying that you personally didn't call them that seems like splitting hairs to me. Also lets not forget the rhetorical gems that get tossed around when a deocrated vetran spoke out against the war.

[ucrzymofo87]

I have to respond quickly, but the reason the war is unpopular is because the media is vehemently opposed to the war and are portraying negative story after negative story about Iraq. There is no balance. We, in the United States, hear how terrible the war is going, when it is going remarkably well. No media bias? Get a grip son.

New MRC Study Reveals Networks’ Overwhelmingly Negative Portrayal Of Iraq War

[panasonic]

when is a war popular? during the great wars it was shown as popular by the media since it was a war for survival, peace in the world, etc etc. when the US invaded Afganistan(sp?) the media showed that the US soldiers were heroes for bringing down righteous judgement (according to them) upon terrorists and everyone else that go caught in the middle.

however, the media cannot say the war in Iraq is nice and all becuase no WMDs were found, and Iraqi civilians are being murdered daily. the US got rid of Sadaam, however, they did not/ do not have the manpower there to surpress the violence that is going on. the war was to liberate Iraq, at least according to Bush. however, Iraq is now a big fucking mess that needs to get cleaned up

[Laik]

Are you saying you want to see propaganda? Why should war ever really be popular? The reason the war isn't well recieved by me is because the president rushed into something that didn't need to happened and people of all kinds are dying and getting hurt as a result. Aside from that, I don't really favor the fact that I still can't definately say what Bush's objective is and, because of that, I have no idea when this conflict can come to an end.

I don't know about other people but that's pretty much it for me. Saying I don't support the soliders just because I'm against the war is a baseless lie. I won't allow myself to be blinded in some feeble attempt to be patriotic to the point where I believe everything the president does is completely and without question is right.

Media is the media friend. Interpret it how you want to but I know good things are going on (The baby getting treatment here in the US) and that bad stuff is still happening. I can only extract my opinion from what is shown and my opinion is that things aren't going well for obvious reasons.

[ucrzymofo87]

I think you should distinguish between accidental civilian deaths by American soldiers and intentional civilian deaths at the hands of terrorists. American soldiers do not target civilians for assassination; terrorists do. Unfortunately, that separation is not always understood by some.

Edit: Also, what the media is doing is propaganda. They are anti-Bush propaganda mechanisms that often tend to distort the truth. Does Dan Rather - Mary Mapes ring a bell?

[panasonic]

the media shows what people want to see. unfortunately thats violence, sex, scandals etc. the "good" stuff is rarely the highlight of the day. for as long as i can remember, the front pages of newspapers have been things along the line of:
x number people dead because of x cause
mr. x under investigation for x reason

the "good" things in life rarely make the front page. and one may say that they are not influenced by the media, but god knows that the moment one is exposed to television, the internet etc, that they are already influenced by the information they see

[vtwahoo]

Actually if you look at scholarly sources on the question of media bias (you know, those published in peer reviewed journals of political science and political communications) you'll find that there IS a media bias. But--and here's the REALLY fun thing--it's a CONSERVATIVE bias.

The idea that there is a liberal bias in the media is one of the most successfully perpetuated lies in political history (right behind "Iraq had something to do with the September 11th terrorist attacks on the Untied States). While it is true that reporters tend to identify themselves as "liberal" or "progressive," reporters actually have very little control over how the news is covered. Media executives, producers, and owners determine what news is covered and, not surprisingly, those executives overwhelmingly identify themselves as "conservative."

And let's not forget, of course, the BLATANTLY conservative elements of the MSM (main stream media)---Fox News, talk radio, the Claremont Institute...these guys don't even PRETEND to be unbiased.

More information can be found in the following article: "The politics of conservative elites and the 'liberal media' argument." You have to have a subscription to the Journal of Communication to access it but here's the abstract:

"Recent evidence suggests that conservative elites' claims of a liberal media are having an impact upon public perceptions of news coverage. With this in mind, we examined two related questions in the context of the 1988, 1992, and 1996 presidential elections. First, what factors may be prompting conservative elites to make allegations of liberal media bias? Second, what factors may influence when news media report these criticisms during presidential campaigns? Findings suggest that these criticisms of news media are at least partly strategic and reflect a dynamic relationship between political elites and journalists during a presidential campaign."

[Laik]

Oh, I do understand. Like I've mentioned before, I'm talking about people dying in general. When I say that, I mean it's very likely that a majority of those people would be alive right now if it didn't come to this.

vtwahoo pretty much said what I was about to say about bias though. In any case, maybe the war gets negative coverage because bad things are happening over there? Also, if you feel your souce is indeed bias in one way or another then get a different one.

panasonic, you're right but the thing about it is that people more often or not rather know the bad news seeing that it more likely or not can have an affect on their lives. The positive things are usually stuff that applies to one or a select few while stuff like the war and so on are major factors in the lives of a lot of people.