just rereading berserk and saw this guy

[Istvan]

Nifty, but not too surprising. After all, we've already seen Guts kill several other Apostles who were at the eclipse. Miura really seems to have thought it through with the Apostles. Of course, for this one Guts might end up holding an even larger then normal grudge.

[Femto]

The Eclipse is full of demons that are completely different from each other and have (most of the times) fully developed designs.

When you think about it from a creator's perspective, doesn't it make sense to use these characters on more than one occasion?

I wouldn't put it past Miura to browse through the Eclipse chapters looking for monster designs to use in current chapters.

In any case, it just goes to prove how much effort went into creating the Eclipse's unsettling atmosphere and it's characters. The highest point in the series without a doubt.

PS: Shisho just made this thread 1000x better.

[Eldo]

As Femto said, I think it's genius that Miura has different roles for these characters outside the Ecllipse. I agree with Shisho, that'll be plenty of time for Guts to dish out some payback. I'm actually looking forward to that fight actually, I would say that Guts should have no problems getting revenge if he managed to slay the monster in the 266 chapter.

[Femto]

When you think about it, Guts' struggle can't really end until each and every Apostle is dead and buried. Leaving even one of them alive wouldn't leave a good sense of closure, and Guts did promise to kill each and every one of them after the Eclipse.

We know Miura plans to have this series go on for a long time, so it might just get to that.

The army of Apostles might a good way to kill a bunch of them in a single swipe too.

[Buzkashi]

I thought that if he killed the God Hands than all the apostles would die anyways.

[Femto]

I thought that if he killed the God Hands than all the apostles would die anyways.

And where exactly did you get that from?

[Buzkashi]

I just assumed. You know, the apostles get their powers from the God Hands and if the God Hands died then so would the apostles.

[Eldo]

I feel that Guts will meet Idea in the same way that the God Hand did...maybe with Idea somehow gone the rest of the apostles and the whole system will break down.

[Loeviz]

Well a good start to wipe out all off the apostles too is to kill the kushan king, then perhaps the kushans stop´s breeding apostles (Or arent they apostels in e sense, cant remember)

[Necromancer]

I just assumed. You know, the apostles get their powers from the God Hands and if the God Hands died then so would the apostles.

And from whom do the God Hand get their power?
Btw. we don't know if Idea or a God Hand came first or maybe there is another big thing in the background.

[dos.azn]

yup, gods hand

[Eldo]

And from whom do the God Hand get their power?
Btw. we don't know if Idea or a God Hand came first or maybe there is another big thing in the background.

Um...Idea of Evil.

[psi29a]

If you want to step back from the details.... apostles get their marching orders from god-hand members, of which get their directions from Idea of Evil.

Idea of Evil wouldn't exist if not for the human subconcious.

Indirectly, Griffith's ambition is the will of the collective human subconcious.

What is interesting is that Guts, through shear force of will is inspiring humans, letting them believe in something. Guts is the 'Mule' in Asimov's Foundation triligy, the 'blip' in the whole sociological big picture that can change everything.

If he inspires humans, over time... this effects the collective human subconcious. Idea of Evil is effected by this.

[Shisho]

And from whom do the God Hand get their power?
Btw. we don't know if Idea or a God Hand came first or maybe there is another big thing in the background.

Um...Idea of Evil.

Yep. Doesn't matter if he kills the God Hand, it won't undo The Idea. It'll just create more God Hand and so forth.

The answer to whether or not all of that will become undone is really out of the scope of what we know so far in the series. Is there an Idea that represents happy thoughts? Is there a struggle, or is this just a shitty world doomed to suffer from a supernatural manifestation of their malicious desires?

We don't know, but what we do know is that if Gatz sees that mother fucking turtle apostle again he's going to get some justice.

[Istvan]

Well a good start to wipe out all off the apostles too is to kill the kushan king, then perhaps the kushans stop´s breeding apostles (Or arent they apostels in e sense, cant remember)

The Kushan's are not breeding Apostles. Only people who possess a behelit can become an Apostle. What the Kushan King is doing is using the evil power emitted from a bunch of captured Apostles to alter the babies of pregnent women (or creatures) to create an army of monsters. They're stronger then most humans, but much weaker then Apostles.

[dos.azn]

gutts has a big sword

[Eldo]

The way that Guts, if he is the one who would eradicate all the members of the God Hand along with the apostles, is if he has a confrontation with Idea.

[Shisho]

The way that Guts, if he is the one who would eradicate all the members of the God Hand along with the apostles, is if he has a confrontation with Idea.

Probably not, because Idea would probably just be remade as long as people's desires still remain the same. That's if he can even reach Idea or actually kill it. If it has the ability to manifest such awesome creations at will and manipulate man's destiny, then I'm assuming it has more power where it resides. It can probably just will you to die if you entered it's dominion.

[Femto]

Can Idea actually be killed?

I mean, do we know for sure that it's something physical that has a body and a presence?

When Griffith met him/her, he didn't take his body (his body didn't leave the Eclipse after all), how can we know whether Idea was in a similar state of being or not, or if he has a body outside of it even?

[Eldo]

I don't think Idea could be killed, since it is derived from Human subconcious, there is no possible way it could be destroyed, unless with the extinction of humankind. Which is why I propose a theory that he would 'confront' Idea, but how Guts would respond or even get to Idea in the first place is beyond me. It just seems to me that if Guts is the one who is supposed to defeat all apostles including the God Hand, it would be logical that Guts head straight to the top dog for that. Probably the behelit would come to play, in unorthodox ways however.

Meh, I'm just tired...

[ZoddsNo1Fan]

I attempted to write something on the topic but got a little confused so i will try to pinpoint a portion of it.

I agree with the fact that the idea of evil cannot be killed. It's more of an anomilly collection of all of the human's transgression of the world(all human pain/hate would have to go away for it to lose its power). Sorta like that purple slime that forms underneath New York City in Ghost Busters 2. All of the ill feeling and hatred of the city takes a physical manifestation and in turn fuels the creation/protection of the antichrist himself!

This purple manifestation of hate or what not of the city in turn causes major noticable appearances of supernatural ghosts, beings and things not of this world. In reference with the manifestation, as the hate in the city grew the slime started to form, until it flowed through the cities sewers and streets. This in turn made the people much more hateful and evil.

Not until the Ghost Busters had brought the Statue of Liberty to time square did the people start to relise what they were doing. Not until the city grew rich with happiness and high spirits and the antichrist/boss was killed did the evil start to receed.

I see the supernatural occurances in Berserk to be of similar relation with the GB movie. Not until Griffeth turns into a god hand and Guts escape from the feast do these strange occurances start to occur. But once the gap of known reality and the supernatural was breached...there was no turning back. All of hell and its minions were unleased upon the earth, and the blacker the scence gets the more supernatural the scene becomes.

Thus, i think that not until the god hand or some big boss is killed, or perhaps some big uprising of the good occurs, i fear that the story of Berserk will just keep on getting darker and darker. Also, there would be a way to kill the idea of evil if this were true, and that would be for all negative things to cease completely....which is impossible sadly for humans. So not until all hate, pain, sadness were to end would the idea of evil be killed.

(note: The god hand recieve their power from the idea of evil. if the god hand recieve their power from the idea of evil then the downfall of the idea would mean the substancial decline of the godhands powers. )


meh..from gramps to long a*$ debate over the downfall of man and the relinquish of evil.....
Anyway...thats just my take on it

[Shisho]

I don't think Idea could be killed, since it is derived from Human subconcious, there is no possible way it could be destroyed, unless with the extinction of humankind. Which is why I propose a theory that he would 'confront' Idea, but how Guts would respond or even get to Idea in the first place is beyond me. It just seems to me that if Guts is the one who is supposed to defeat all apostles including the God Hand, it would be logical that Guts head straight to the top dog for that. Probably the behelit would come to play, in unorthodox ways however.

Meh, I'm just tired...

Well, it's what I said. There isn't really anything substantial to this point that really gives us any idea <-- (wtf I know) as to what the larger picture actually contains. We don't know if that's just a part of the cosmic system in play and there is more, or not. We don't even know the actual backgrounds yet of the other God Hands, let alone Idea.

All that I can reasonably guess at, is that Skull Knight will kill Void, and Gatz possibly killing Griffith's human form. We don't even know if his objective lies in stopping Idea, as I doubt he even knows of Idea's existence. Now his brand might be lifted when SK does Void in, it's possible that might break his magic/curse. Then if Gatz acquires adequate revenge and is free of the brand that might be the end of his journey and involvement with the workings of Idea and his God Hand. If the brand lifts he may also be unable to connect or see the other planes, and apostles won't have any vested interest in him as a sacrifice.

I attempted to write something on the topic but got a little confused so i will try to pinpoint a portion of it.

I agree with the fact that the idea of evil cannot be killed. It's more of an anomilly collection of all of the human's transgression of the world(all human pain/hate would have to go away for it to lose its power). Sorta like that purple slime that forms underneath New York City in Ghost Busters 2. All of the ill feeling and hatred of the city takes a physical manifestation and in turn fuels the creation/protection of the antichrist himself!

This purple manifestation of hate or what not of the city in turn causes major noticable appearances of supernatural ghosts, beings and things not of this world. In reference with the manifestation, as the hate in the city grew the slime started to form, until it flowed through the cities sewers and streets. This in turn made the people much more hateful and evil.

Not until the Ghost Busters had brought the Statue of Liberty to time square did the people start to relise what they were doing. Not until the city grew rich with happiness and high spirits and the antichrist/boss was killed did the evil start to receed.

I see the supernatural occurances in Berserk to be of similar relation with the GB movie.

Ghost Busters?!

It's amazing to me how far off track analogies can become. I see very little if not any correlation to Ghost Busters the movie, and I think Miura would slap you across the face if he had ever heard you utter this in his presence.

Yes, there is something strange in the neighborhood... jesus christ.

[Istvan]

All that I can reasonably guess at, is that Skull Knight will kill Void, and Gatz possibly killing Griffith's human form. We don't even know if his objective lies in stopping Idea, as I doubt he even knows of Idea's existence. Now his brand might be lifted when SK does Void in, it's possible that might break his magic/curse. Then if Gatz acquires adequate revenge and is free of the brand that might be the end of his journey and involvement with the workings of Idea and his God Hand. If the brand lifts he may also be unable to connect or see the other planes, and apostles won't have any vested interest in him as a sacrifice.

I doubt it will end that easily. I agree that SK will probably kill Void, and Guts may eventually manage to kill Griffith, but before he succeeds in that I would think all the other God Hand would die first (no evidence, just my personal feeling). If it ends with three God Hand still alive, it won't feel like there is actually any closure, the ending would feel weak. Even leaving that aside, it isn't the brand that lets him see Apostles (any human can do that) it just let's evil spirits become more active in his presence and lets him know when Apostles are near.

[dos.azn]

*nods

[Shisho]

I don't know, if he kills all of them some new ones will begin being born somtime 216 years in the future when Gatz has already died of old age.