London, Terror, and Leadership

[psi29a]

I smell something burning... *grin*


Go southpaw, lay down the hammer on the BS I see before me.

[Shaka Zulu]

Kind of like we are doing in Iraq by helping them rebuild water filtration stations?

that we destroyed....

rebuilding their schools and hospitals?

That we destroyed.....

The kind of help we provide by training their military and police forces?

That we destroyed.....

Well said Its quite obvious,but it needs to be said.Was quite hilarious, reading those bits...


Majority of muslims or arabs dont like Al Qaida or approve of what they do.But as you said they die out of lack of support.But the thing is, they wont be aslong as those desperate extremist they recruit are fucked over by a certain countries foreing policy.

[Killfile]

First: with regard to the Soviet army -- US armed forces are specifically designed to fight a land war against a fast moving opponent that makes heavy use of mechanized infantry and artillery while downplaying the roll of tactical aircraft and ground support aircraft. This is the "red" force we train against. It's the Soviet Army. US weapons design has been slanted to favor the expenditure of material over the expenditure of men. That's why we put our troops in multi-million dollar tanks and humvees that cost 10 times what their Soviet equivalents did. This is not to say that a uranium round intended for a Soviet tank rolling across the fields of Germany won't rip a jeep full of RPG toting insurgents to shreds -- it will. But the tactics we use and the training our men have been provided are decapitation tactics -- tactics that teach them to strike at the head of an organization to cripple it. Those tactics are largely ineffective against a non-hierarchical structure, such as the Iraqi resistance. This is a problem, the sooner we admit this problem the sooner we will be able to make some progress in Iraq and get our troops home. I think we can all agree that this is a desirable outcome.

Second: with regard to winning the hearts and minds -- the GOVERNMENT of Iraq wants us there, but it's the government elected by those that were frankly interested in Democracy in the first place. Polls show Iraqis divided on the presence of US troops. More importantly, most of the insurgency ISN'T Iraqi. Our total inability to close Iraq's boarders brings in more militants every day. Our heavy handed reprisals against those militants as well as our continued presence in a Muslim country continues to create more fanatical resistance to the United States, both within Iraq and internationally.

What I mean by winning hearts and minds is that we need to do things like NOT invade countries that haven't done anything meaningful to piss us off in the last 10 years. The war in Iraq was a sham. It's common knowledge. There were no WMDs, there was no compelling reason for the US to go in. Plead humanitarian causes all you like, but when Bush stood up in front of the Congress, the UN, and the World it wasn't to plead humanitarianism -- it was to frighten us with threats of Mushroom Clouds over NYC. It was a lie.

We would be safer today if, instead of spending time, money, men, and materials invading a sovereign nation that hadn't done anything to us, we had spend those hundreds of billions of dollars providing childhood immunizations to every kid on the planet. For the cost of the Iraq war, we could do that for 59 years.

We could have helped fight the world wide AIDS epidemic and saved lives that way. Imagine the international good will we'd have generated if we'd funded AIDS prevention, containment, and treatment. We could have done that for 17 years with what we've spent in Iraq thus far.

The United States is the Rome of the Modern World. In the time of Augustus, a Roman could walk across the known world protected by nothing more than his Tunic and the power and majesty of the Roman empire. No one would dare attack him because they feared the legion, but more importantly - they feared the withdrawal of the benefits Rome had brought to them. Running water, roads, trade -- the benefits of friendship with Rome were staggering.

Today the United States exploits its so called "friends" we run rip-shod over the countries foolish enough to fall into our sphere of influence, selling their national resources to the highest corporate bidder for export and sale at your local Walmart. We crush cultures beneath the heavy boot of McDonalds and Mickey Mouse. Yell "Free Trade" and "Capitalism" all you like, but it's government subsidies to the advertising budgets of McDonalds and Disney that arouse the most ire.

America has become the imperialist of the new millennium. We are doing to the world today what Britain did in the 19th and 20th Centuries. Just as it cost Britain dearly, it is starting to cost us as well. Unless we seek to be reduced to irrelevancy we should start to look to history to inform our actions.

Finally: with regard to a decentralized insurgency. Al-Queda and terrorist resistance as a whole has metastasized. It is no longer the networked cells we saw before 9-11. In response to highly visible US action, Al-Queda has transformed from a organization into a movement. There is no longer a Hydra, but a Swarm to kill. We have made the problem worse, not better through the use of conventional military force. As the analysts recommended in Sept 12, 2001 -- this was a job for US special forces. This needed to happen under the radar, quietly, covertly.

Instead President Bush decided to make a political dog and pony show out of it. We'll be paying for that decision for the rest of our lives.

We do not care about the International communities opinions in this. If we did we never would of invaded, because you told us not too. If the international community doesn't want to see a problem that is staring in the face that's fine. We won't ignore it however.

And that is why we will fail. Terrorism isn't a country we can defeat, it's a tactic. Invading Iraq won't stop terrorism - and for every Iraqi solider killed, every insurgent blown apart by artillery fire, we leave behind widows, sons, daughters, father, mothers, brothers, and sisters that grieve the loss of their loved ones. Hearts and minds. What the world thinks matters.

[TheDarkness]

i just wanna ask 1 thing.....

If you can get rid of terrorists with the help of the local population and the American army has been doing that for the last 4 years.. Then why in heavens name are the large terrorist attacks increasing in frequency from the moment that the Americans started their war on terrorism as a reaction on the WTC disaster?

I mean hey i am really sorry for all the people that died during that attack and i am even more so for those that were left behind but ever since the war on terrorism started everything started to get worse. Heck it is speculated that London was attacked because it supported the American war on terrorism. So these attacks are quite literally a direct result of the actions of your president Bush.

[Buzkashi]

Incorrect Buz, those facilities had long been allowed to fall out of use by Saddam's regime before we even began planning to invade Iraq.

Are you sure? Cause i have some friends that lived there for a while that beg to differ

As for the police force we destroyed I am sure the Iraqi's are greatly pleased that we got rid of Saddam's group of secret police, I mean destroying a group that terrorizes, abducts, kidnaps, and murders was a great sin.

heh sounds familiar.....

[Killfile]

Buzkashi -- if the CIA was a real "secret police" in the United States you would never read this message -- because you and your family would already be in prison.

[psi29a]

Buzkashi -- if the CIA was a real "secret police" in the United States you would never read this message -- because you and your family would already be in prison.

burn... burn!

Thankfully, at least most 'Western Governments' allow us to speak out against everything. Interestingly enough, Iraq has that freedom now, oh wait, and Afghanistan.

[Buzkashi]

But i wasnt talking bad about them. I just stated the fact that they existed. My sheik's house was raided by the fbi saying he was supporting terrorists which they didnt have any proof of. And they shut my mosque down for nearly a month because they suspected some of the members of being terrorists. Lets not forget about all the people in gitmo that they have no evidence on and that have not been given trials yet.

Thankfully, at least most 'Western Governments' allow us to speak out against everything.

I wouldnt say everything... I remeber a case shortly after 9/11. Where 2 kids of middle east decent made a joke saying something along the lines of ,"if they thought september was bad then damn they better get ready for christmas" A lady heard them and reported them to the police .Shortly after they were arrested and in jail for some time.

[Killfile]

Freedom of speech is great and all - but lets not forget what we're talking about here. I'm all for freedom of speech - but I'm also abundantly aware that democracy doesn't have a really great track record when it's brought somewhere from overseas. I wish Mr. Bush nothing but the best in Iraq and Afghanistan. That said - I don't think this was a good idea. If we're for free speech in Iraq why aren't we for free speech everywhere else? If we're for freedom of religion in Afghanistan, why not in China? If we're against genocide in Iraq, what about Rwanda?

I'm glad that the Iraqis can say what they want now -- but lets not pretend that we went into Iraq for altruistic reasons or that the new-found freedoms of the Iraqi people validate an illegal invasion of sovereign nation by the United States.

[Shaka Zulu]

Exactly Killfile.For example Egypt.Your tax money is keeping and supporting a puppet, oppressive, and a dictator government in Egypt.Is that spreading democracy?



Where is America's claimed commitment to democracy, when this government they support has jailed the most leading opposition candidate, and repeatedly delayed his court hearings until after the election (with the exception of a few tired remarks)? Or is it not time yet to "go looking for WMD" in Egypt just because that puppet president is doing his job as you want it? Do You know you pay Egypt(and Izrael) alot more then you ever do to a poor country in need of aid? Why? Izrael we know why,but in Egypt case they claim its a bribe money(atleast it was at start) to not attack Izrael,which is bullshit now.

The bribe money is to keep the puppet president and to ask him act as the US's representative in the area, forcing America's demands even on his own people.


According to your elected leaders, Egypt's president,Hosni Mubarek, is a man of peace, a democratic president, and a good leader...They really sound like spreaders of democracy...

And Egypt its just one(present one,USA's past involving in other goverments is too many too mention,sickening examples) example mind you...