Berserk Stupid theories

[Starnum]

Yeah, I get it.

[The Herald]

Well, you're kinda right, but this one is from Salvador Dali, 'Soft Construction' I think it's called. He was the dude with the melting clocks. A lot newer and better known, the guy that was showcased in the most recent Berserk chapter was from the 16th century, Dali was 20th.

[Starnum]

Right, but that one two-page mural in the new chapter did look reminiscence of Salvador Dali, I got what you were getting at when I saw it. Nice reference, I did find the post amusing.

[The Herald]

I think that Guts will let loose his sad emotions at the island of Skellig and reveal all his history to a trusted confidant. I believe that will be Farnese, Schierke is too young for him to connect with. And I don't think Casca will regain herself.

[War Machine]

I think that Guts will let loose his sad emotions

That's never gonna happen.

and reveal all his history to a trusted confidant

If he talks to anyone else about the eclipse (cause he has already told Pippin), it'd be the whole group. To only tell the story to one person is meaningless, Guts is not keeping it a secret just so it can be a secret.

[The Herald]

He told Pippin, the dead guy, about the Eclipse? Did you have a brain fart? Do you mean Puck? I meant how he felt about Casca and those sort of things.

[War Machine]

Rickert, that's who I meant. Yeah it sounded weird when I wrote it but I didn't bother checking. Anyway, talking about the eclipse and those events is not the same than simply talking about his feelings.

[Starnum]

Rickert, that's who I meant. Yeah it sounded weird when I wrote it but I didn't bother checking.

You had me confused for a moment there too, but it's okay, I know how you feel. I did something similar recently as you may recall.

[The Herald]

I said this in mind to how he felt, not the eclipse stuff. His life in general, its only been a few years since the eclipse. More like about Casca and his friends and all that. As far as I know, all he's said in that regards to anyone is that he told Roderick that Casca was special to him.

[The Prince]

Rickert, that's who I meant. Yeah it sounded weird when I wrote it but I didn't bother checking. Anyway, talking about the eclipse and those events is not the same than simply talking about his feelings.

Herald please tell me you're joking to suggest even the possibility of Guts pouring his heart out to Farnese of all people.

As far as I'm concerned Guts is already well passed the point of coming to grips with the events of eclipse as far as his emotional well-being. The only thing that I could see possibly happening is the emotional set of circumstances that would re-manifest themselves as result of Caska regaining her sanity, assuming she has yet to come to terms with events of the eclipse in her present state......Because as far as Caska goes there will always be a tremendous sense of guilt for being powerless to help her in what had happened during the eclipse, and her mental regression as a result. And lets not forget for being powerless in protecting her from himself, eg. nipple biting incident.

The only person whom Guts has ever broken-down in front of, regarding opening himself up to his sad-emotions, was Godo. IMO this scene marked the end of the Blackswordsmen Arc giving rise to the aptly- named Retribution arc.. This exchange where Godo basically lambasted Guts for turning his back on the Hawks/Caska (and their memory), having relied on revenge to remove himself from coming to terms with what happened, was a seminal moment in the story as far as Guts character progression....evolution.

[The Prince]

Rickert, that's who I meant. Yeah it sounded weird when I wrote it but I didn't bother checking.

You had me confused for a moment there too, but it's okay, I know how you feel. I did something similar recently as you may recall.

No biggie......Comparing the two I can see how one might confuse Pippen with Rickert. Just like how I often type Minister Foss when I actually mean to write Zodd.

[The Herald]

Yeah, you're right about Guts, he's not the heart pouring type at all. But here's hoping. I'm still not convinced that Casca will regain her sanity, I never entertained the idea that Berserk wasn't going to end in tragedy. We'll be lucky as an audience to have Guts or someone from his entourage survive, though I am convinced we will have some sort of closer, whether it is death or not of everything. Though, Berserk like many fantasy stories (I'm playing FFX again so the concept of life and death is a little ambiguous to me right now) death is not the end, ghosts and things like that exist, and ghosts are things that are very prevalent in Berserk.

[Istvan]

Yeah, you're right about Guts, he's not the heart pouring type at all. But here's hoping. I'm still not convinced that Casca will regain her sanity, I never entertained the idea that Berserk wasn't going to end in tragedy. We'll be lucky as an audience to have Guts or someone from his entourage survive, though I am convinced we will have some sort of closer, whether it is death or not of everything. Though, Berserk like many fantasy stories (I'm playing FFX again so the concept of life and death is a little ambiguous to me right now) death is not the end, ghosts and things like that exist, and ghosts are things that are very prevalent in Berserk.

Death not being the end in Berserk might not be a good thing though. Let's hope that if Guts and/or Caska die they at least manage to remove the brand first (maybe by killing Griffith?) otherwise...well being dragged off to hell doesn't strike me as all that pleasent a fate.

[The Herald]

Dude, there's nothing about Berserk that's pleasant, fuck, even the scene where Guts and Casca do it for the first time is unpleasant to say the least, he was almost raping her. About the only thing I can think of that was pleasant was when Roderick had that gazebo filled with roses for Farnese, and even that was awkward. I'm not bringing up anything to do with Griffith in court because every single one of those moments, no matter what it was, has some underlying tone of fear or malice. When it comes to Berserk being dragged off into an afterworld and not becoming a ghost would be a good thing, whether it be heaven, hell, or something else.

[The Prince]

Dude, there's nothing about Berserk that's pleasant, fuck, even the scene where Guts and Casca do it for the first time is unpleasant to say the least, he was almost raping her. About the only thing I can think of that was pleasant was when Roderick had that gazebo filled with roses for Farnese, and even that was awkward. I'm not bringing up anything to do with Griffith in court because every single one of those moments, no matter what it was, has some underlying tone of fear or malice. When it comes to Berserk being dragged off into an afterworld and not becoming a ghost would be a good thing, whether it be heaven, hell, or something else.

Being dragged off into hell for all eternity is never a good thing!

Also even though there are ghosts in Berserk, they are usually depicted being little more than mindless negative forms of energy. Aside from when the forest witch haulted Grumbeld's pursuit of Guts' party, and where Griffith channel's the spirits of those killed in battle, I can't recall ever having seen the appearance of a ghost (spirit form) pertaining to a once dead character (not to be confused with Shierke and Farnese astral forms).

[The Herald]

That is true, about not seeing a main character ghost. But what I have a problem with in this discussion is that we have already discussed that Berserk is not in the real world and is therefore not confined within realworld ideology, as in the concept of heaven or hell. They have a similar heaven and hell concept, as defined by their religiion that mirrors Christianity, but whether that exists in their world (and this of course can be argued within our world too) remains to be seen. What does exist, however, are the different levels of the astral plane, going down into the abyss and all that. Whether a good or bad soul goes into the abyss remains to be seen, because in Christianity saved and good souls (and sometimes sheep and dogs) and the bad souls (and goats) go to hell. Is there even a heaven in Berserk? Where do the strong, good souls go? I do know there is a concept of soul in Berserk, at least I believe so anyways.

[The Prince]

That is true, about not seeing a main character ghost. But what I have a problem with in this discussion is that we have already discussed that Berserk is not in the real world and is therefore not confined within realworld ideology, as in the concept of heaven or hell. They have a similar heaven and hell concept, as defined by their religiion that mirrors Christianity, but whether that exists in their world (and this of course can be argued within our world too) remains to be seen. What does exist, however, are the different levels of the astral plane, going down into the abyss and all that. Whether a good or bad soul goes into the abyss remains to be seen, because in Christianity saved and good souls (and sometimes sheep and dogs) and the bad souls (and goats) go to hell. Is there even a heaven in Berserk? Where do the strong, good souls go? I do know there is a concept of soul in Berserk, at least I believe so anyways.

A valid question.

I have always wondered myself if there is a counter-part (i.e heaven) to the abyss for mortal souls to go. I have always assumed there was because if those branded are condemned to hell, then that must mean there is an alternative fate for those not condemned.

[The Herald]

I thought that the branded were just condemned to be eaten.

[DrPepperPro]

They'd wind up in the vortex still. Speaking of that, maybe it's possible to die, go to the vortex, and make it out. Like Ganishka said that he went to hell and took power (gotta reread those parts). Did he merge with all the mingled souls in the vortex and make it out alive still? I think that's what happened, and his ego was strong enough to last however long he was in there. Like Vargas' ego was intact as far as we could tell, because he'd only been in there for a day or so. So anyways the point is, if Guts died, maybe the beast of darkness or having the brand in the first place might be enough to save him from the vortex. That and his indomitable will.

[Starnum]

Ganishka had that monstrosity of a machine to help him gather his power though, the Reincarnator. I don't think you could do what he did without it.

[Istvan]

I thought that the branded were just condemned to be eaten.

Nah, it's mentioned at a few points that after they die the souls of the branded are dragged off to hell. I tend to agree with The Prince that the way the maelstrom of souls is specifically identified as hell, and the way people explicitly say that the branded destined to have their souls dragged to hell, means there must be some other alternative for souls (if this alternative qualifies as heaven is another story, of course).

[Rolos]

Perhaps, in the berserk universe, the simple fact that your ego does not get dissolved (disolutted?), leaving only your raw negative emotions so a few demons can use it as fuel counts as Heaven. After all, it is a Crapsack world.

Wait. Following that line of reasoning, either having your ego dissolved into raw positive emotions or being a ghost would count as Heaven.

And being a ghost would simply mean to retain your individuality. However, as the Prince said, ghost seem to act in a way that expresses little complexity, being basically incorporeal zombies. They are raw emotion, its just that the particular raw emotion they happen to embody is self-preservation.

This is just speculation, but here goes how I think the world of berserk could work (concerning the individual).

Lets start with what we know:
Being for too long on a higher (or lower, if you prefer, considering the Abyss is the other extreme) layer means you are no longer subject to sensations, which are unique to every individual.
Being apart from the sensations that are only yours, and being constantly exposed to concepts and ideas, which are a-personal, has a negative effect on individuality.
To be able to retain your individuality while transversing layers is to practice magic.

Now lets speculate like caffeine-overdosed intelectualoids at a "smug bar":

Being alive means you are subject to sensations. Those sensations are unique to you. Thus, while you are alive, you are unique.
The thing is, your body has that annoying tendency to deteriorate in time, so it eventually fails, and you die. Your ego is no longer subject to sensations. Yet you are still conscious. The problem is, all you have to keep your individuality are concepts and ideas, so whenever you start thinking about, say, bread, you cant recall how it tasted, because you haven't tasted it for too long. All you can recall is that it was salty.
What just happened? You just lost a defining characteristic, now you are just a guy who likes bread and thinks its salty. Now lets assume something like that happens to every other sensation.
Eventually all that is left are large bodies of people who had similar mindsets, similar combination of ideas. In time, similar bodies tend to get closer.
The more general the body of egos, the "bigger" it is. Since there's lot more differentiation in terms of whats good than in terms of whats "evil" (just ask a few people what they want to do with their lives, whats their "good" and then ask them what sucks), the body of "evil" is the biggest one of the bunch. All those that get stuck in that body of evil, the "vortex", can be said to be in hell.
Those that are in the different bodies of "good" are in heaven.


So, basically, if you value your individuality above all things, you are totally screwed.

PD: It feels like I haven't visited this forum in ages.....and I have been away for how long, a week? Anyway, please forgive the fact that I ranted excessively over such a small discussion, I just couldn't help it.

[The Prince]

They'd wind up in the vortex still. Speaking of that, maybe it's possible to die, go to the vortex, and make it out. Like Ganishka said that he went to hell and took power (gotta reread those parts). Did he merge with all the mingled souls in the vortex and make it out alive still? I think that's what happened, and his ego was strong enough to last however long he was in there. Like Vargas' ego was intact as far as we could tell, because he'd only been in there for a day or so. So anyways the point is, if Guts died, maybe the beast of darkness or having the brand in the first place might be enough to save him from the vortex. That and his indomitable will.

Miura depicting Vargas dragging the Count off to hell was more or less symbolic than anything else IMO. It has been stated numerous times that an association with "demon-kind" can lead to damnation. To what extent that "association" comprises....I don't know. But in Vargas' case his dealings with Count and eventual execution at his hands placed him in that category.

Ganishka never died (at least not until much later), so I don't think he is a good example for this discussion. Generally the process should have been no different (or at least similar) to what we saw with the birthing of monster babies, which was what the "machine" was originally being used for.

Will or no will....If Gut's were to die.....he would be FUCKED!

[The Herald]

Yeah, he'd be dead, and considering all the facts, you can't do much after that. Maybe Guts could find solace in dying, because then he would have escaped all the torture and fear and things hunting him.

Also, Rolos, your discussion on what is considered heaven or hell, that's a good point to make when arguing about the usefulness of religion. If individuality is superfluous, which it really is if you can't get anyone behind you, then you must conform and become part of something bigger. The biggest problem currently in the Berserk world is all these people are rallying behind Griffith, labelling him as some saviour, when we, as the audience, know in reality that he is as close to the devil as one could be in the Berserk world and will drag all these people to hell with him. Or the Abyss, whatever you exactly want to call it, but at this point it's all semantics.

[dialdfordesi]

One I realized that is kind of interesting is that Ganishka was called Lord Shiva when he turned into his super apostle form. In Hinduism it is believed that Shiva is the destroyer of things. This does not mean that Shiva is the bringer of the apocalypse, because there is another god, Lord Brahma, that is the creator. In order for Brahma to create, things that already exist must be destroyed so they can be remade. It's pretty interesting then, that Ganishka's body was used to remake the world.

It would be kind of neat to see if other things were also somewhat related to Hinduism. One example I can think of is Griffith and Guts. In hinduism there was a demon named Hiranyakashipu. He gains the power to not be killed by neither man nor beast, among other things. Lord Vishnu comes to earth in the form as Narasimha, a half-lion, half-human and disembowels the demon and restores peace to the world.

Guts may be like narasimha, in the sense that even though he's human, his demonic wolf form appears when the berserker armor gets activated. He also transcends more than the realm of the humans due to his brand. As we already know, this "hybrid" nature could be the very reason why he might be able to kill Griffith.