Berserk 296 - Thundering Heavens

[Lord Rae]

Ware the wrath of Emperor WACKY WAVING INFLATABLE ARM-FLAILING TUBE MAN!

Ok setting aside the death and destruction that is right on the money. LoL...

Now I really can't take him seriously...damn you family guy.

[Ziggamafu]

I'm glad we don't have to wait so long for the next issue...when Berserk gets into these kinds of intense action sequences it is painful for me to read, mostly because I know I'm going to be left hanging for MONTHS on end...lol, the most painful delayed gratification in my manga-reading history...

I almost wish Berserk came out yearly (it's not like I can just NOT read an issue the moment it comes out) so you get full stories in one sitting. I'm spoiled because I hopped onto the Berserk band-wagon late in the series; I was able to read a couple hundred chapters back to back. Such an addiction.

Anyway, thanks as always.

[Istvan]

I don't think the Kushans siding with Griffith will make much of a difference at the moment. Their surrender will be much more 'voluntary' once the Emperor is defeated, but at the moment, I think the soldiers are conditioned to be afraid of the emperor's wraith if they ever surrender. A fate worse than death and all that. I love how the pope is fueling the propaganda machine.

That's what I meant, afterwards. Even if they sided with Griffith right now the Kushans couldn't make a difference, simply because they can't possibly deal with what the Emperor has become. But after Griffith defeats him, and saves the Kushans from the "monster," things will have been perfectly primed for them to transfer their alliegence to Griffith. No (or at least very little) fighting or conquering required. That's what I meant when I said the Emperor's actions were aiding Griffith.

[The Herald]

Thanks EG, you guys rock!

Grrr ... the first time they're on the boat in months and Roderick is no where to be seen ...

Anyways, yes, Griffith will be loved by all after he kills the Kushan Emperor, and he'll be the perfect king, bring honor, glory, and prosperity to Midland and all that ... but what about the fact that he's supposed to be pure evil, you know, being part of the Godhand and all. It almost seems like Griffith is the good guy, the godhand is in reality good, and Guts is the evil one for opposing them. But then you realize that's how all devils work in western religion, and how they're coniving bastards with an eternity to plan and confuse all of us little plebians into believing they are indeed good. That's the problem anyways, God isn't the opposite of evil in that He is good, He is the great mediator, of both the good and bad times, and feelings and all that. The Godhand are the extremes and push and pull in either direction to pull people away from God's course and whatnot, and then only the strongest like Guts can see what's really going on.

So, to sum up, Guts is going to have to kill the entire country of Midland to get to Griffith after this is over ... can't wait to see it

[LordMune]

But then you realize that's how all devils work in western religion, and how they're coniving bastards with an eternity to plan and confuse all of us little plebians into believing they are indeed good.

Griffith is the helmsman of all of God's (the Idea of Evil) actions in the world as of now. He is bringing humanity closer to God, and while God is called the Idea of Evil, "Evil" is a misnomer. Idea is an amalgam of humanity's collective unconscious and is thus the ideal God of this world. Guts opposes Griffith, making Guts, if you necessarily have to compare it to the Judeo-Christian set of beliefs, the Anti-Christ. While we, the readers, are rooting for Guts' victory, Griffith's downfall is most likely far from the ideal solution for the inhabitants of the world Berserk takes place in. Guts' actions are thus, per a more objective definition, evil, and his work is the work of the Devil, opposing God's plans.

In fact, should Griffith's reign be as fair and prosperous as he undoubtedly wishes it to be, the collective subconscious may adopt a more positive outlook, and with it the Idea of Evil may very well change to the Idea of Good, given time. Guts having his revenge would, as things are now, only have a negative effect.

[hbi2k]

The interesting thing about the Idea of Evil as I understand it is that, as the incarnation of humanity's collective unconscious and the instrument of brining about the most fervent desires of that collective unconscious, he is aiming to bring about, not an END to suffering, but a REASON for suffering. I find it incredibly fascinating (and very much containing a ring of truth) that what humanity in the world of Berserk wants most is somebody else to blame for its problems, whether you call that God or the Devil.

Hence, Griffith, as the Idea's chosen vessel, appears as a savior, someone to save humanity from itself. In other words, a way for humanity to abrogate its own responsibilities for the causes of suffering. God and the Devil, Good and Evil as abstractions are two sides of the same coin: the Devil as someone to blame for humanity's suffering, and God as an outside source to look to for salvation and an end to that suffering. As the story progresses, I think we'll find that the only path to TRUE enlightenment and an end to suffering is to take responsibility for one's own situation; for humanity as a whole to stop looking outside itself for the causes of its suffering, and for each of us as individuals to look for practical solutions to our problems rather than a pie in the sky.

Historically, savior figures such as Jesus and the Buddha are at their most potent, not as avatars of some separate Good that can solve our problems for us, but as examples of what we ourselves can become, the best that humanity is capable of. The truest reflection of the Christian ethic is not, "Jesus, save me," but, "What would Jesus DO?" If you look at how Griffith's most ardent admirers view him, you notice that they tend to describe him with adjectives like "divine," "otherworldly," even "inhuman," like something out of a picture book or a scripture. These should be warning signs that he is in fact a false idol, meant to offer false hope and draw people away from finding real solutions to their suffering and accepting responsibility for their own actions.

"When all soldiers lay their weapons down,
Or when all kings and all queens relinquish their crown,
Or when the only true messiah rescues us from ourselves,
Its easy to imagine there will be,
...
Sorrow, no more."

-Bad Religion, "Sorrow"

[Lara Skadi]

it's quite funny as a Berserk fan to read Nietzsche. the one im reading now, Daybreak, is about human traditions, etc., and everything he says fits perfectly in berserk world and its recent events (what hbi2k was talking about, that's one of it's topics), even more than it does to ours. it's a nice read, if anyone is interested on wondering without getting anywhere

As for the salvation thing, maybe just because he's essencially evil, doesnt necessarily mean they'd be better without him n i agree that maybe guts killing griffith now would be worse for the people. i wonder how it's gonna be when he finnaly gets his own kingdom, cause it's clear darkness will rule (he'll keep playing the protector hawk maybe?)...

oh, n thank you guys for the scanlation!! ^^

[Istvan]

He is bringing humanity closer to God, and while God is called the Idea of Evil, "Evil" is a misnomer. Idea is an amalgam of humanity's collective unconscious and is thus the ideal God of this world. Guts opposes Griffith, making Guts, if you necessarily have to compare it to the Judeo-Christian set of beliefs, the Anti-Christ. While we, the readers, are rooting for Guts' victory, Griffith's downfall is most likely far from the ideal solution for the inhabitants of the world Berserk takes place in. Guts' actions are thus, per a more objective definition, evil, and his work is the work of the Devil, opposing God's plans.

I don't think that's entirely accurate. Idea isn't the amalgam of humanity's entire collective unconscious, but only a portion of it (presumably the "strongest" portion), namely that part which desires a reason for their suffering. As I understand it, Idea was created in order to be that reason, hence its title as the Idea of Evil. Every action Idea takes should thus be in line with creating suffering in the world, and being the reason for that suffering. As Idea's ultimate creation, that should be most true of Griffith. He may take the form of a perfect saint/messiah in order to fool and manipulate people, and further his own ends, but in the end it's only an act. I'm reminded of the point someone raised on an earlier discussion of this issue, that after the battles Griffith was taking the souls of the dead (including his followers) and feeding them to the hell of Berserk, yet to his followers his actions looked like a miracle. If I had to guess, his reign would always seem wonderful to his subjects, but would actually be about the worst thing that could have happened to them. Hbi2k makes some good points on this issue, although I question his conclusion to the story. Somehow I don't see Miura as making the mistake of having basic human nature simply shift that easily. The vast majority of people aren't going to simply stop looking for a scapegoat (although the individual may, as has already been shown in the story). That's my take, anyway. So in conclusion, while Guts may be opposing "God's Plan," I do not agree that Griffith's success would be "best" for the world. When God is evil, opposition is what is best for the world, and is, objectively, good.

[hbi2k]

Hbi2k makes some good points on this issue, although I question his conclusion to the story. Somehow I don't see Miura as making the mistake of having basic human nature simply shift that easily. The vast majority of people aren't going to simply stop looking for a scapegoat (although the individual may, as has already been shown in the story). That's my take, anyway.

Oh, I don't think it too terribly likely that any significant majority of the population of the Berserk world will come to any sort of realization about the nature of suffering and the futility of looking for scapegoats / saviors outside themselves. I simply feel that by the end it will become clear to the readers (if it's not already) that this is one of the central themes of Berserk. Whether any of the characters in the story will come to this same realization is anyone's guess.

[The Prince]

I don't think that's entirely accurate. Idea isn't the amalgam of humanity's entire collective unconscious, but only a portion of it (presumably the "strongest" portion), namely that part which desires a reason for their suffering. As I understand it, Idea was created in order to be that reason, hence its title as the Idea of Evil. Every action Idea takes should thus be in line with creating suffering in the world, and being the reason for that suffering. As Idea's ultimate creation, that should be most true of Griffith. He may take the form of a perfect saint/messiah in order to fool and manipulate people, and further his own ends, but in the end it's only an act. I'm reminded of the point someone raised on an earlier discussion of this issue, that after the battles Griffith was taking the souls of the dead (including his followers) and feeding them to the hell of Berserk, yet to his followers his actions looked like a miracle. If I had to guess, his reign would always seem wonderful to his subjects, but would actually be about the worst thing that could have happened to them. Hbi2k makes some good points on this issue, although I question his conclusion to the story. Somehow I don't see Miura as making the mistake of having basic human nature simply shift that easily. The vast majority of people aren't going to simply stop looking for a scapegoat (although the individual may, as has already been shown in the story). That's my take, anyway. So in conclusion, while Guts may be opposing "God's Plan," I do not agree that Griffith's success would be "best" for the world. When God is evil, opposition is what is best for the world, and is, objectively, good.

THANK YOU Istvan!

- It appears that Griffith has faked out the readership, along with the rest of Midland.

Griffith is not a God, at least in how "we", the Western World, view how God is supposed to be.

Griffith is in fact flawed (grossly so IMO), and entirely mortal......That is, if we are to assume Griffith, to this day, remains the same sentient being he was before, during, and after the eclipse in becoming Femto.

Let's not forget what a conniving fucker Griffith was during his days with the Hawks, and truely belligerent bastard that he was towards Guts in Volume 3 (post-Slug Count battle) as Femto. Even in "his" own eyes (during captivity), Griffith conceeded to the fact that Guts was the "better man".......

I still am not giving up on the fact that in time, "we" (and the rest of Midland), will see Griffith to be the False Prophet that he is.....and always was. Istvan alluding to the scene where Griffith was reigning in the ill-fated soul's of the dead that died in battle was a perfect caricature of this (a brilliant observation if I say so myself.....). A scene that on the surface depicted a rather serene and sentimental set of circumstances, though in fact, was nothing more than a mere facade for ensuing damnation.

-I have to admit, though I may not agree with him on occasion, I always enjoy reading Lord Mune when he does his thing.....Dude writes like James Joyce. Sometimes I have to read his writing 3-4 times just to make sense of it. No wonder he's such an Evangelion freak

Oh, I don't think it too terribly likely that any significant majority of the population of the Berserk world will come to any sort of realization about the nature of suffering and the futility of looking for scapegoats / saviors outside themselves. I simply feel that by the end it will become clear to the readers (if it's not already) that this is one of the central themes of Berserk. Whether any of the characters in the story will come to this same realization is anyone's guess.

You could not have put that any better!

[LordMune]

When God is evil, opposition is what is best for the world, and is, objectively, good.

But what, objectively, defines the moral value "good"? Traditionally, religion. Idea's very existence redefines the notion of "good" and "evil" into good and evil(Berserk values in plain text, our moral values in quotes). While there's no way to tell for sure how much of Femto is (the seemingly "good") Griffith and how much is Idea's Pawn, I believe it is fair to say that Griffith's goals coincide with Idea's for the time being. But I digress.

I think we all agree that Griffith's reign will seem prosperous- and isn't that enough? It means the majority of the general populace is not suffering, perhaps for the first time in history. Isn't peaceful coexistence (or rather slightly more subdued, organized, bureaucratized brutality) between Man and Apostle preferable to the status quo we witnessed in the first three volumes of Berserk? Idea is seemingly unbeatable, since he is God (Not just a god, but God, God of Suffering, making suffering good), so isn't Griffith's "evil" reign preferable to Griffith's death at the hands of Guts, i.e. a return to the pre-eclipse era of corrupt, abusive nobility and occasional invasions into the mortal realm by Apostles? Griffith is good, and the lesser of two "evils".

[The Prince]

I think we all agree that Griffith's reign will seem prosperous-

I don't agree with that assumption at all.

[LordMune]

I think we all agree that Griffith's reign will seem prosperous-

I don't agree with that assumption at all.

Griffith's dream is to be an awful king who doesn't do his job properly, making his subjects kind of pissed and generally disloyal?

[Rolos]

Do you really think Griffith will be conformed with just reigning over Midland?

I thinks that's very improbable. He has clearly shown the characteristic features of a megalomaniac, wanting his own kingdom and control over all people around him, and megalomaniacs are never satisfied with what they have accomplished.

In my opinion, after gaining control of Midland, Griffith will set out in a quest to unite all the berserk world under one rule, his rule. No matter how charismatic he is, world domination is not something that can be achieved without wars.

War = Suffering

[dialdfordesi]

Concerning Griffith's reign, it will most likely be prosperous, but not for humans. In the eclipse, it foreshadowed that with Griffith's reign, an age of demons would occur. Since Sophie said the logic of Midland's world was ending when Ganishka got his new form, I think that age of demons is going to start now.

[Istvan]

But what, objectively, defines the moral value "good"? Traditionally, religion. Idea's very existence redefines the notion of "good" and "evil" into good and evil(Berserk values in plain text, our moral values in quotes). While there's no way to tell for sure how much of Femto is (the seemingly "good") Griffith and how much is Idea's Pawn, I believe it is fair to say that Griffith's goals coincide with Idea's for the time being.

I think you're still missing the point. Yes, morality and terms such as "good" and "evil" are defined by societal norms, the most powerful of which is religion. Yes, as far as we know Idea is the only God in the Berserk universe. However no religion actually worships Idea. Idea is formed from the portion of people's minds that cries out for a reason for suffering, but people don't knowingly worship it, and religion doesn't knowingly serve it. Although the religion of the world may help support Idea (with phrases such as "God's will"), they don't define Idea's actions as moral. If people knew about Idea, the societal norms would label it "evil," as Idea itself acknowledges with its name, "Idea of Evil." The fact that it's a "god" doesn't automatically make what it does "good."

I think we all agree that Griffith's reign will seem prosperous- and isn't that enough? It means the majority of the general populace is not suffering, perhaps for the first time in history. Isn't peaceful coexistence (or rather slightly more subdued, organized, bureaucratized brutality) between Man and Apostle preferable to the status quo we witnessed in the first three volumes of Berserk? Idea is seemingly unbeatable, since he is God (Not just a god, but God, God of Suffering, making suffering good), so isn't Griffith's "evil" reign preferable to Griffith's death at the hands of Guts, i.e. a return to the pre-eclipse era of corrupt, abusive nobility and occasional invasions into the mortal realm by Apostles? Griffith is good, and the lesser of two "evils".

I disagree completely. Random barbarity can almost never reach the levels of suffering, cruelty, and "evil" that an organized, systemetic civilization can. See for example Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. For that matter, read 1984, where no one blamed the government (or "Big Brother"), but life was attrocious. The fact that the people won't blaim Griffith for the horror that their daily lives become won't change the nature of that horror. dialdfordesi also makes an excellent point about some of the consequences of Griffith's reing. He may arrange for others (such as supernatural creatures) to take the blame, but it will still be his fault.

[The Herald]

Suffering allows for the people to want to believe, and create ideas, especially the idea of evil. So, even if it is against his best personal interests in ruling the world of the humans, he'll have to create suffering forever if he is to keep his power as Femto. In essence even though him being Femto has given him the power to become king of Midland through the manipulation of the people, that power is in flux with his power as Femto. In the end Griffith cannot be both King and Femto because those two positions are in oposition. The King wants prosperity for his country, which means prosperity for his people, but as Femto he needs them to suffer so that they will continue to feed the idea of evil and keep his prescence and power in existence.

[The Prince]

I think you're still missing the point. Yes, morality and terms such as "good" and "evil" are defined by societal norms, the most powerful of which is religion. Yes, as far as we know Idea is the only God in the Berserk universe. However no religion actually worships Idea. Idea is formed from the portion of people's minds that cries out for a reason for suffering, but people don't knowingly worship it, and religion doesn't knowingly serve it. Although the religion of the world may help support Idea (with phrases such as "God's will"), they don't define Idea's actions as moral. If people knew about Idea, the societal norms would label it "evil," as Idea itself acknowledges with its name, "Idea of Evil." The fact that it's a "god" doesn't automatically make what it does "good."

Keep in mind at this point in the story Miura has yet to reveal the concept of the Idea of Evil, having removed the lost chapter from Berserk's current narrative. But I (like you) still am under the assumption that the concept of the Idea remains a vital part of the Berserk mythos.

Miura has already stated a major reason for removing the lost chapter was because he felt like the chapter gave away too much of the storyline too soon. So that makes me think that it is only a matter of time until Miura will unveil the machinations of the Idea of Evil when the oppurtunity arises. The mere fact that Miura decided to go against his own storyline and remove chapter 83, makes me think that Miura has re-imagined a much more oppurtune set of circumstances in which to drop the Idea into the plotline (Revealing Griffith's 'true' purpose?).

And if we are all to assume that Griffith's ascension falls under some underlying master plan orchestrated by this Idea of Evil, and to a lesser extent, the Godhand themselves (lets not forget about their hand in all of this).......When its all said and done, I can't imagine these turn of events corresponding toward the best interests of humankind.

[elric le tueur d'amis]

my vision of the events may be really different but :

The logic of the human world of Berserk is now ending, the hidden worlds (Qliphoth and others) are closer than ever and all will merge totally after some really big event (the death of "Ganishka" may be enough but I don't think so) : the apostles are cohexisting "peacefully" and fight along with the humans, a living god is present and unifies everyone under his authority ; Griffith's reign won't ever be beneficial for the humans cause they'll never endure living amongst their worst fears (trolls, ogres, kelpies,...).

[Istvan]

Suffering allows for the people to want to believe, and create ideas, especially the idea of evil. So, even if it is against his best personal interests in ruling the world of the humans, he'll have to create suffering forever if he is to keep his power as Femto. In essence even though him being Femto has given him the power to become king of Midland through the manipulation of the people, that power is in flux with his power as Femto. In the end Griffith cannot be both King and Femto because those two positions are in oposition. The King wants prosperity for his country, which means prosperity for his people, but as Femto he needs them to suffer so that they will continue to feed the idea of evil and keep his prescence and power in existence.

True enough. And let's also not forget that Idea (whose purpose is to create suffering) wouldn't have gone through all the bother of creating Griffith if he wasn't going to further human suffering in a major way.

[Eldo]

I find the comparison with Femto and Hitler quite interesting, because this is what seems to be happening (for now). Most leaders, in a way end up being terrible rulers after war is over. Griffith's situation right now reminds me of Mugabe in Zimbabwe, he was hailed as a hero when the war was over, but did he govern the country well for the 30 or so years? Not really, no.

Suffering allows for the people to want to believe, and create ideas, especially the idea of evil. So, even if it is against his best personal interests in ruling the world of the humans, he'll have to create suffering forever if he is to keep his power as Femto. In essence even though him being Femto has given him the power to become king of Midland through the manipulation of the people, that power is in flux with his power as Femto. In the end Griffith cannot be both King and Femto because those two positions are in oposition. The King wants prosperity for his country, which means prosperity for his people, but as Femto he needs them to suffer so that they will continue to feed the idea of evil and keep his prescence and power in existence.

True enough. And let's also not forget that Idea (whose purpose is to create suffering) wouldn't have gone through all the bother of creating Griffith if he wasn't going to further human suffering in a major way.

I don't have the Idea chapter with me right now, but does it state that Idea has an agenda to continue creating suffering? Or is he just a tool, much like a car to take you from place A to place B? If Idea does not have an agenda, then Griffith may not be operating to fuel Idea by creating more suffering. As Idea governs all fate in the world, it would seem that Griffith cannot get out of his grasp, so everything he is doing right now is done accordingly Idea, but not so much that Idea is directing Griffith to create more suffering for his own purposes.

[The Prince]

I don't have the Idea chapter with me right now, but does it state that Idea has an agenda to continue creating suffering? Or is he just a tool, much like a car to take you from place A to place B? If Idea does not have an agenda, then Griffith may not be operating to fuel Idea by creating more suffering. As Idea governs all fate in the world, it would seem that Griffith cannot get out of his grasp, so everything he is doing right now is done accordingly Idea, but not so much that Idea is directing Griffith to create more suffering for his own purposes.

That's what the Godhand is there for.

[The Herald]

I guess the idea is not directly related, but it is true that ordinary people fuel the apostles in both being their sacrifices and being their fodder for war later on. I was merely stating the logic as I saw it. Basically at this point in time Miura's point that leaders in the world feed off the weak has been made. I'd just like to see how the events in his world play out and if they'll go with the flow of our history or go against it. I'm hoping that Miura breaks that literary trend. Though, he's been good at keeping it vague so far.

[Starnum]

Well, I really don't trust Griffith anymore, and I doubt him being king of Midland or the world for that matter, will be a very good thing at all. However, just to play the devil's advocate, I will remind you that Idea told Griffith that their wills were the same, and that it was up to Griffith whether to save the world, or to damn it. So really, we'll just have to wait and see what he does. Besides, I don't think the world will be any worse without Griffith than it is with him, but that's just my assumption. I wouldn't call Idea God, or Gatts the Anti-Christ. I'd rather not compare the story to Christianity, but if I had to label Idea, he'd be the devil. I'm not saying there's another entity such as "God" present in the world of Berserk...but still...Idea is the "cause" of all evil...that's good enough for me to label him as the devil rather than God. Besides, Griffith fits the description of the Anti-Christ much better, IMO. He is an extremely charismatic person who's fooling the nations (or so we can assume) after all. *shrugs*

[Istvan]

I don't have the Idea chapter with me right now, but does it state that Idea has an agenda to continue creating suffering? Or is he just a tool, much like a car to take you from place A to place B? If Idea does not have an agenda, then Griffith may not be operating to fuel Idea by creating more suffering. As Idea governs all fate in the world, it would seem that Griffith cannot get out of his grasp, so everything he is doing right now is done accordingly Idea, but not so much that Idea is directing Griffith to create more suffering for his own purposes.

Um. I don't recall Idea ever explicitly laying out an agenda or anything, but what it does do is state that it was created by humans to be the reason for suffering. I take that to mean that Idea's agenda is basically to control all of fate (as it does) in order to create suffering in the world, and be the reason for that suffering. Apostles and the God's Hand members are both means of furthering this goal of human suffering.

However, just to play the devil's advocate, I will remind you that Idea told Griffith that their wills were the same, and that it was up to Griffith whether to save the world, or to damn it.

Agreed. However when we look at the degree to which Idea claimed to have created Griffith (everything to DNA to his entire circumstance and environment), I took it to mean that what Griffith wanted to do with the world would be the same as what Idea wanted to do to the world. Basically, Griffith had been shaped such that anything he chose to do would further Idea's ends, and so no further command was needed beyond "Do as you will." Likewise with all the other Apostles and God's Hand.

Well, that's my take on things, anyway, though I agree with Starnum that ultimately we'll have to wait and see.