Berserk chapter: 290

[hbi2k]

IIRC, Guts' demon doggy appears to him in the cave near Godo's place, which is supposed to be off-limits to (most) demons and evil spirits. That does seem to imply that it's all in his head.

[Azrael]

IIRC, Guts' demon doggy appears to him in the cave near Godo's place, which is supposed to be off-limits to (most) demons and evil spirits. That does seem to imply that it's all in his head.

Hm, what chapter (well, range, I guess. Probably hard to remember exactly which one it was. )do you think that scene would've been around?

[Botch]

IIRC, Guts' demon doggy appears to him in the cave near Godo's place, which is supposed to be off-limits to (most) demons and evil spirits. That does seem to imply that it's all in his head.

Hm, what chapter (well, range, I guess. Probably hard to remember exactly which one it was. )do you think that scene would've been around?

Volume 17, chapter 9 I think. On page 182-183

[luciferian]

About the armor and the hell hound...
As far as I recall, Gutts was having dreams/visions of the hell hound way before he put on the armor.

Though in this release while Gutts is dreaming you hear "With such a yoke, don't think you keep me in chains...."
My understanding of this is the hell hound, which I always believed to be Gutts manifestation of hatred and his drive to go kill Griffith. The hell hound, not the armor is letting Gutts know he cannot tame it, perhaps referring to his new crew or Caska.

The next panel it states "The instant you gained that shell, I was already unleashed." This HAS to be referencing the moment he put on the armor, as somewhere it was said that the armor brings out your inner most feelings/desires.

Next panel "That sly witch thinks she has tamed me, but that was only a temporary thing." This is when Gutts was going berserk, pun intended, during that battle and she brought him out of it. Now the armor is not the cause of him going nuts, but it is a catalyst to his actions.

Then it goes on saying his new comrades are the only thing keeping him from being taken over by it, in my opinion anyway.

And unfortunately it goes saying he will suffer their loss once again, like the eclipse, so I'm not getting attached to any of the characters now. Other than Gutts and Caska that is.

So basically the armor and the hound are two separate entities, though I'm sure the armor does not have a being. This brings me to a conclusion that unless Gutts refuses to ware the armor when fighting, he will let go of himself totally, possibly bringing everyones demise including his new company.

Your points are what I have been thinking since the release of th chapter. If people notice how Gutts was before the armor part, and before he started getting companions (besides puck), you will see that he did give a shit about anyone. His demon was in almost complete control of him. Using kids as bait, attempting to slaughter the butterfly apostle... all actions of the beast within. Then, his near rape of Caska, the beast shows itself.

But the beast to me is just his instincts taking over.

[dialdfordesi]

Your points are what I have been thinking since the release of th chapter. If people notice how Gutts was before the armor part, and before he started getting companions (besides puck), you will see that he did give a shit about anyone. His demon was in almost complete control of him. Using kids as bait, attempting to slaughter the butterfly apostle... all actions of the beast within. Then, his near rape of Caska, the beast shows itself.

But the beast to me is just his instincts taking over.

Maybe the beast did not need to manifest itself because Guts didn't need to restrain his darker side. He was with nobody, so he did not need to care for others, which let him do things such as using a kid as bait for the Pirkaf (sp?). Since he has a group that he does care about (he even says they're his family at that tavern), he can't live as a person consumed by hatred.

[lon3vvolf]

Great chapter, thanks EG and Miura-san.

I found the bit with Guts' beast more interesting than the insane ramblings of a disempowered noble. Well. What is disturbing here is that his beast is acting like a seperate entity. I used to think it was just his own rage, materialized, but still his own. Now it seems its even capable of rational thought and planning. That's really a lot more creepy than it used to be.

Multiple personality/dissociative identity disorder? After all, Guts is trying to hide some really deep wounds here, it's not surprising that these feelings could manifest as a separate personality within him.

Thanks for the chapter guys, great work as usual.

Thats exactly what I have been saying all along. Good to see that someone besides me thinks Gatts has developed multiple personalities.

Multiple personalities? No offense but thats way off. Do we see Gutts changing the way he acts randomly? Does he one minute act calm and collected, while the next hes blurting out mindless ramblings? He doesn't change the way he interacts with the environment or his companions. And where does the multiple part come in? If anything there are only two: Normal Ass Kicking Gutts, and Crazy Berserk I'll F*CKING KILL ANYTHING THAT GETS IN MY WAY Gutts(usually seen after Normal Gutts is pushed way beyond human limits). Having dreams/visions is different than having two or more personalities. Which is why your theory doesn't sit well with me. The demonic visions are a much deep part of his subconscious which is free to roam him mind while hes sleeping/recovering. Kind of like the voice in your head telling you do things, but not a different personality. Uhhh I mean... if one did have voices in their head telling them to do things...

[War Machine]

That's very true, even in his blind rage, Guts still acts as he always has. The only instance that I would consider to be a change in personality would be when he's overtaken by the armor, but even then it's more of a trance than a change in personality.

And about the moment where Guts used the kid as bait to get Roshinu (I think that's her name), it was more of a desperate tactic to kill her quickly, he knew exactly what he was doing because he didn't hurt the kid at all. Also, he gets mad at himself for not taking full advantage of several other opportunities he had at striking Roshinu down; he hesitated because Roshinu was basically a kid, so he struggles for a while differentiating her from a normal kid versus the demon she was at the moment. There wasn't a moment where he changed personalities or his core values of protecting the innocent.

[absofflab]

The Beast's manifestation isn't really consistent with multiple personality disorder. It looks more like a degeneration of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) into psychotic behavior. I also think that the actions and desires of the Beast have been overcited as a source of Guts' violence-seeking behavior. To address each point in turn:

1)Guts has been suffering from PTSD over the entire span of his short life (I'm always taken aback whenever I remember that Guts is only about 23 years old). If you look back, Guts has exhibited all the symptoms of PTSD: nightmares/horror/anxiety, avoidance of triggers that remind him of his traumas (in his case, physical contact because of his violent rape as a child), reliving of the trauma, etc (and given the life he's led, there's pretty much been very little chance of this disorder getting better; it's a testament to his willpower that he's able to function so well in spite of his problems). Part of the nightmares has always been vivid but unstable images related to the bad experiences (e.g., Gambino talking while pulling his own head off his neck). At times, Guts relives traumas while experiencing terrible hallucinations (like when he lost control while consummating his relationship with Casca). At any rate, the nightmares and hallucinations were a chronic and variable part of Guts' daily experience. And that's what the Beast appeared to be when it first manifested itself (right after Guts took down the butterfly Apostle). However, after that point, the Beast stayed. Why that's the case, I can only guess at. Regardless, it seems to me that the Beast is a stablized hallucination, and one that's gaining a progressively "louder" voice. Which would be a pretty solid symptom of psychosis. Also, the other thing that indicates the Beast to be a hallucination rather than some other personality of Guts' has to do with its presence in Godo's mine. It was pointed out earlier that the Beast could not have appeared in Godo's mine if it were separate from Guts. I'll go one step further and say if it were not a hallucination but a demonic presence possessing/sharing a body with Guts, then Guts himself should probably not have been able to set foot inside the mine after the Beast became a part of him.

2)There seems to be a consensus that Guts' extreme tendencies are a reflection of the Beast. While I agree that the most immoral/amoral of Guts' actions don't reflect his core kindness (i.e., the Beast was the driving force behind the attempted rape of Casca, using children as bait, etc.), I don't think the Beast changes fundamental predispositions that Guts has. Rather, it only eliminates restrictions that Guts sets with respect to who he intentionally commits his acts of violence against. Guts has lived with violence his whole life, and has been shown to actually seek it out or welcome it for his own amusement or thrills. He is quite possibly an adrenaline junkie, and it was safe to say that he had extreme tendencies well before the arrival of the Beast. All this to say, the Beast makes Guts more dangerous, but I wouldn't say that he makes Guts much more dangerous.

[mcnicolas]

Could it be possible that the beast is the reason why Gutts lived on the very start of the manga? His birth is actually very supernatural in nature. Gutts is supposed to be dead by the execution tree on his mother's womb, then suddenly he gains life as his foster mother carried him. I don't know but I feel that the beast is a major cause of that event. If this is true then the beast was with him from the very start.

[tosh]

I was thinking a bit about the nature of the Berserk armor. Its something that is cursed and maybe even demonic in nature. It draws out and is powered by anger and hate, leeching off these energies and merging with the wearer in a way.

If we look back at the first look we got of Gaiseric ( as the emperor) he wore a helmet shaped like a skull yes? And when we first see the Berserk armor the headpiece has the shape of a skull, probably taking this visage when the previous owner wore it. Then when Guts puts it on, it slowly merges with him, his rage. And voila, we have a hound.

So we have two inner beasts. Guts has just started his journey with the armor. Gaiseris on the other hand seem to have assumed the very form of the beast that the armor made real and molded from his rage.

P.S. Hi.

[The Prince]

The Beast's manifestation isn't really consistent with multiple personality disorder. It looks more like a degeneration of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) into psychotic behavior. I also think that the actions and desires of the Beast have been overcited as a source of Guts' violence-seeking behavior. To address each point in turn:

1)Guts has been suffering from PTSD over the entire span of his short life (I'm always taken aback whenever I remember that Guts is only about 23 years old). If you look back, Guts has exhibited all the symptoms of PTSD: nightmares/horror/anxiety, avoidance of triggers that remind him of his traumas (in his case, physical contact because of his violent rape as a child), reliving of the trauma, etc (and given the life he's led, there's pretty much been very little chance of this disorder getting better; it's a testament to his willpower that he's able to function so well in spite of his problems). Part of the nightmares has always been vivid but unstable images related to the bad experiences (e.g., Gambino talking while pulling his own head off his neck). At times, Guts relives traumas while experiencing terrible hallucinations (like when he lost control while consummating his relationship with Casca). At any rate, the nightmares and hallucinations were a chronic and variable part of Guts' daily experience. And that's what the Beast appeared to be when it first manifested itself (right after Guts took down the butterfly Apostle). However, after that point, the Beast stayed. Why that's the case, I can only guess at. Regardless, it seems to me that the Beast is a stablized hallucination, and one that's gaining a progressively "louder" voice. Which would be a pretty solid symptom of psychosis. Also, the other thing that indicates the Beast to be a hallucination rather than some other personality of Guts' has to do with its presence in Godo's mine. It was pointed out earlier that the Beast could not have appeared in Godo's mine if it were separate from Guts. I'll go one step further and say if it were not a hallucination but a demonic presence possessing/sharing a body with Guts, then Guts himself should probably not have been able to set foot inside the mine after the Beast became a part of him.

2)There seems to be a consensus that Guts' extreme tendencies are a reflection of the Beast. While I agree that the most immoral/amoral of Guts' actions don't reflect his core kindness (i.e., the Beast was the driving force behind the attempted rape of Casca, using children as bait, etc.), I don't think the Beast changes fundamental predispositions that Guts has. Rather, it only eliminates restrictions that Guts sets with respect to who he intentionally commits his acts of violence against. Guts has lived with violence his whole life, and has been shown to actually seek it out or welcome it for his own amusement or thrills. He is quite possibly an adrenaline junkie, and it was safe to say that he had extreme tendencies well before the arrival of the Beast. All this to say, the Beast makes Guts more dangerous, but I wouldn't say that he makes Guts much more dangerous.

Guts is a walking Case Study in PTSD.

[psi29a]

Been awhile since we had a good discussion like this going on, welcome newcomers.

[greydeath]

I really don't think he'll kill the party off. They might branch off for a time, but I don't think he will kill them.

[Arcandus]

I really don't think he'll kill the party off. They might branch off for a time, but I don't think he will kill them.

You are not possessed by a really evil from hell creature of doom. hahaha

[Istvan]

I really don't think he'll kill the party off. They might branch off for a time, but I don't think he will kill them.

You are not possessed by a really evil from hell creature of doom. hahaha

Actually, my impression (which admittadly could be wrong) of the Beast's speach wasn't that it was going to kill the party, rather it was that if they kept hanging around Guts they were simply certain to die, just like the eclipse. When that happened, the Beast would be made stronger than ever, and would finally completely take over Guts.

[Turd Ferguson]

I really don't think he'll kill the party off. They might branch off for a time, but I don't think he will kill them.

You are not possessed by a really evil from hell creature of doom. hahaha

He didn't say if he was Guts he wouldn't kill the party off, he said he thinks Guts won't kill the party off. So the point about him not being possessed by a really evil from hell creature of doom is irrelevant.

Secondly, Guts isn't possessed either; at least that's the theory that seems most likely. The most compelling bit of evidence presented so far that backs that argument is the Beast's appearance in Godo's cave, which we all know was protected against the presence of evil spirits.

I think too many people are trying to take the Beast's speech in the last chapter at face value. I think the important thing to note is that it took place during a fever-induced dream. Guts having nightmares about things that are weighing heavily on his mind is a recurring theme in the story. Also, take a look at the Beast using the words "I" "you" and "us" interchangeably. You could compare this behavior with that of Gollum in The Lord of the Rings, substituting Guts' hatred, anger, and lust for violence for Gollum's lust for the Ring. Of course, I don't really believe Guts has developed a fully split personality, and it certainly hasn't manifested externally like Gollum/Smeagol, so I would say a better (although much cheesier) comparison would be with the 90's FOX sitcom Herman's Head

[The Prince]

I really don't think he'll kill the party off. They might branch off for a time, but I don't think he will kill them.

You are not possessed by a really evil from hell creature of doom. hahaha

He didn't say if he was Guts he wouldn't kill the party off, he said he thinks Guts won't kill the party off. So the point about him not being possessed by a really evil from hell creature of doom is irrelevant.

Secondly, Guts isn't possessed either; at least that's the theory that seems most likely. The most compelling bit of evidence presented so far that backs that argument is the Beast's appearance in Godo's cave, which we all know was protected against the presence of evil spirits.

I think too many people are trying to take the Beast's speech in the last chapter at face value. I think the important thing to note is that it took place during a fever-induced dream. Guts having nightmares about things that are weighing heavily on his mind is a recurring theme in the story. Also, take a look at the Beast using the words "I" "you" and "us" interchangeably. You could compare this behavior with that of Gollum in The Lord of the Rings, substituting Guts' hatred, anger, and lust for violence for Gollum's lust for the Ring. Of course, I don't really believe Guts has developed a fully split personality, and it certainly hasn't manifested externally like Gollum/Smeagol, so I would say a better (although much cheesier) comparison would be with the 90's FOX sitcom Herman's Head

Herman's Head was a classic! But Small Wonder was my favorite........

[dialdfordesi]

Turd, if it the dog's message was just a product of Guts being delirious, why even put it in the manga? We've seen close calls before, and not just from the berserker's armor. The dog's message shows that someone may be gravely injured or even killed just because the chances of that happening are much higher when people travel with Guts. If that ever happens to people in Guts' crew, there will be less that holds Guts' vengeful desires aside.

I for one wouldn't mind if it happened to the less-than-aptly-named Magnifico.

As for the armor augmenting the dog, don't forget that the armor feeds negative emotion into its wearer as well as making them immune to pain and realigning their bones.

[Turd Ferguson]

Turd, if it the dog's message was just a product of Guts being delirious, why even put it in the manga? We've seen close calls before, and not just from the berserker's armor. The dog's message shows that someone may be gravely injured or even killed just because the chances of that happening are much higher when people travel with Guts. If that ever happens to people in Guts' crew, there will be less that holds Guts' vengeful desires aside.

Why put the dream about Gambino in the manga if it was just a dream? It's important because it shows an internal struggle Guts is dealing with. Just because it may have only been a dream does not diminish the message at all. Guts knows full well what he is capable of and what happens to people who get close to him.

[dialdfordesi]

I misinterpreted your post about taking the dog's dialog at face value and took that as meaning that you didn't think that what the dog said was significant to the story in Berserk.

[Turd Ferguson]

I misinterpreted your post about taking the dog's dialog at face value and took that as meaning that you didn't think that what the dog said was significant to the story in Berserk.

Oh no, that's not what I meant at all. It's very important. What I was getting at when I said people are taking the dialog at face value is that people are assuming because the Beast is talking to Guts, then it must be something seperate and atonomous from his own identity.

[Frogacuda]

Ultimately, Guts will either kill Casca or die defending her. This is too dark of a series to just have a happy ending.

I guess Guts could end up like Skullknight eventually, neither dead nor alive.

Also, they've been travelling to elfhelm so long I've forgotten why they needed to go there in the first place. Can someone refresh my memory?

[Aetherfukz]

The dog's message shows that someone may be gravely injured or even killed just because the chances of that happening are much higher when people travel with Guts. If that ever happens to people in Guts' crew, there will be less that holds Guts' vengeful desires aside.

I for one wouldn't mind if it happened to the less-than-aptly-named Magnifico.

Well Magnifico is pretty much just comic relief, a bad and scheming one, but still he pisses himself at the first sight of a fight. If (and I hope so) he gets killed it would be just collateral damage, nothing that affected Guts, maybe Farnese would mourn a bit but that's about it. Roderick could bite the dust, although hes not long with the party he still is very important and digs Farnese. And if Farnese would die, Guts would have to kill Serpico, and would lose a good fighting ally + the one that guards Caska.
So that leaves Isidro, Schierke and of course Caska. Isidro I don't think so, as he's a much needed comic relief character who also is able to kinda hold his own in a fight and Guts can rely on him when the shit hits the fan. Schierke, no way either, she is probably to powerful to bite the dust against lower apostles. Zodd or Grunbeld or the likes would probably be needed to kill her and even then it would be extremly hard if Guts could hold the enemy back for her to cast some apocalyptic spell.
So Caska... Guts said about her "She is my..." and I like to finish that sentence with "reason". The thought of what she was and maybe can be again is probably the only thing that holds Guts back from flying straight at Griffith and dying in a blaze of Glory struck down by Zodd and Griff's other bodyguards. And that is what I think would happen to Guts if she died - he only lives for her and his revenge now and if revenge is all he got left, and now with his armor, he surely would go into a complete and unreversable Berserker rage.

So to conclude I think if one of the current party has to die it would either be Roderick or Magnifico. Seeing how dark Berserk is usually it would probably be Roderick, maybe sacrificing himself for Farnese or something - as he kinda reminds me of Judeo, from his hairstyle and manners (a kinda philosopher that has the ability to fight).

Or course there is the loaming possibility of another eclipse. But who would sacrifice them? Guts and Caska cannot because they are branded. Farnese? Maybe the old one but the new one - nah. Serpico it too humble for it and only wants to be at Farneses side. Schierke is to intelligent to meddle in the affair of demons, and Isidro looks to much up to the crew and on top of that is too light a charakter. So Roderick or Magnifico again? Well Roderick cares for Farnese so nah. Magnifico seems to care only for his own wellbeing so would fit the description but probably is too much a wimp to go through it. And none of them ever had a Behelit.

Ultimately, Guts will either kill Casca or die defending her. This is too dark of a series to just have a happy ending.

I guess Guts could end up like Skullknight eventually, neither dead nor alive.

Also, they've been travelling to elfhelm so long I've forgotten why they needed to go there in the first place. Can someone refresh my memory?

a) If Guts dies the story is over. It is his story after all.
b) If he would end up the same as Skully, why not just tell the story from the Skull Guts point of view and everything else in flashback? I think Guts is the Black Swordsman, as he was in the beginning of the story, and will be to his gruesome death.
c) They aren't really that long travelling to Elfhell... um Elfhelm. The story was just sidelined a lot with Griffith and other episodes. Anyway the only thing I remember why they want to go there is for Caska to regain her memory. Although I think they wanted to go there before Skull Knight told them of that possibility. Can't remember why though, but I think maybe to talk to the great elfking what happens to the world and stuff.

Cheers

[Turd Ferguson]

Ultimately, Guts will either kill Casca or die defending her. This is too dark of a series to just have a happy ending.

Miura has already stated on record that the story will have a happy ending. Of course, that is pretty vauge and the definition of "happy" is up for interpretation.

Although I think they wanted to go there before Skull Knight told them of that possibility. Can't remember why though, but I think maybe to talk to the great elfking what happens to the world and stuff.

They originally were going there so Casca would have a safe place to stay, after Zodd crashed into and destroyed the enchanted cave.

[lon3vvolf]

Ultimately, Guts will either kill Casca or die defending her. This is too dark of a series to just have a happy ending.

I guess Guts could end up like Skullknight eventually, neither dead nor alive.

Also, they've been travelling to elfhelm so long I've forgotten why they needed to go there in the first place. Can someone refresh my memory?

1. Gutts would never kill Caska. He tore off his own arm for her, so IMHO given the choice between her living and him dying, we'd have a manga without a lead character. Also this manga is dark, but you've always got Puck, and that little brat for comic relief... and those damn pirates too.

2. Very unlikely, as we don't even know how he came to be. Granted all signs point to Gaiserik, we don't know how he became the SK. Was it due to a behelit, sorcery, the God Hand, we can't be sure yet. If it was a behelit or God Hand its almost impossible since he was branded as a sacrifice.

3. Cuz they're afraid Caska's periods will slow them down... no wait, I mean shes likely to fall off ships and go chasing after rats that run out in front of demons. And possibly to regain her brain, which if you recall fell out of her head during the eclipse.

On another point, I'm sure this has been discussed before... but... since Gutts and Caska were both branded as a 'sacrifice' for the creation of the God Hand member, it would mean he could only be fully created with them 'sacrificed.' So I post this question, with them being alive... is Femtos current form not complete/as powerful as if they were dead? Opinions people!