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[The Prince]

WARNING! NEWB ALERT!

EDIT: To Rolos......see question 1


1.) Anyone wonder what would Guts apostle form look like? (Sorry if this was brought up before)

I would assume it would likely be something like that wolf-thing we see characterizing Guts' rage, manifested through the Beserk armor, that we see chained in the most recent episode. Would we assume it would walk on all four's (or three's ) or would it be more humanlike.

I would also assume it wouldn't be grotesque like most apostle forms (e.g the ones w/ bunches of tentacles and their human faces potruding from their ass, tongues or stomach) , and more strait-up like Zodd's form and some of those legendary apostle generals in the new B.O.T.H.

2.) Speaking of which?

Why are the apostle forms of Zodd and apostle generals less demonlike, as opposed to the run of the mill weirdo's we saw in the first eclipse?

3.) If Guts ever did become one, couldn't he rebel against the G.H just like the Kushan Emperor?
Could only imagine how powerful he would be, although the Beserk Armor form would be a close second.

4.) And could Griffith transform back into Femto if he chose, like as his apostle form?

[Aetherfukz]

WARNING!

These questions I imagine are NEWB as one can get, so bare with me.......

But insight and opinions would be appreciated.


1.) Anyone wonder what would Guts apostle form look like? (Sorry if this was brought up before)

I would assume it would likely be something like that wolf-thing we see characterizing Guts' rage, manifested through the Beserk armor, that we see chained in the most recent episode. Would we assume it would walk on all four's (or three's ) or would it be more humanlike.

I would also assume it wouldn't be grotesque like most apostle forms (e.g the ones w/ bunches of tentacles and their human faces potruding from their ass, tongues or stomach) , and more strait-up like Zodd's form and some of those legendary apostle generals in the new B.O.T.H.

2.) Speaking of which?

Why are the apostle forms of Zodd and apostle generals less demonlike, as opposed to the run of the mill weirdo's we saw in the first eclipse?

3.) If Guts ever did become one, couldn't he rebel against the G.H just like the Kushan Emperor?
Could only imagine how powerful he would be, although the Beserk Armor form would be a close second.

4.) And could Griffith transform back into Femto if he chose, like as his apostle form?

1. I honestly have no clue. And I have never spent a single thought on that issue

2. I think it probably has to do with how much control they have over themselves. Zodd and Griffith's Knight-Apostles are kinda strategic, and may still think and behave humanlike. The lesser demons on the other hand are basically just "kill maim burn!" all the time. That too is probably linked to what and how strong they were before their ascend to demonhood. In the Lost Children chapter when Guts fights the guardians, the 2 hardest of them say they were knights before ascending and so are the strongest of the bunch - and they do look rather like normal insects than full fledged demons.
Also Zodd and the other really strong demons still possess free will to some degree. Zodd gave Guts a sword when his broke in the Boscogne fight because he recons Guts a worthy opponent, and still does pretty much whatever he likes - with the exception that he is Griffith's personal bodyguard now.

3. Dunno. Guts probably could rebel against anything but the question is: If Guts would become a demon himself, his fight and cause would be lost, and his spirit would have probably been broken if he ascends.

4. Dunno, maybe. But I think Griffith now is much stronger than Femto, with all his Charisma and stuff. And he still has command over the demon army and is an exceptional fighter. Kinda like Freezer in DBZ, his strongest form was the most innocent looking one.

OMG did I just compare Berserk to DBZ..?

Cheers

[The Prince]

Thanks bro!

Good stuff!

[psi29a]

Points to consider:

1) No need to wonder because Guts doesn't have an apostle form because he isn't an apostle. It would be similiar to asking what SK's apostle form is... wait, he isn't an apostle either.

2) You got me. Can only speculate, ask Miura.

3) If P then Q, however what makes you think that the Kushan Emperor rebelled against the God Hand? Ever consider that the Emperor is just acting out his part in the grand scheme of Idea? How else do you get the 'hawk of light' griffith to be welcomed as a Saviour unless you have some badass army of creepy foreigners to fight and 'win'?

In summation, to become apostle is to willingly become the pawn of Idea. It is highly unlikely that Guts would ever do that. Guts is the antithesis of Idea and the God Hand.

4) Femto corporal form is that of Griffith (perhaps with a bit of Casca/Guts mixed in thanks to fetus) but he is still very much Femto in the Astral Plane and above. He hasn't changed form yet, but does it really matter?

[The Prince]

Points to consider:

1) No need to wonder because Guts doesn't have an apostle form because he isn't an apostle. It would be similiar to asking what SK's apostle form is... wait, he isn't an apostle either.

Sorry dumb question I guess. Guess you're not into the whole "what if?" thing.

Doubt anyone knows for sure at this point: But what the hell is the Skull Night then? If he's not an apostle, God Hand, Human, what else is there (in regards to the Berserk universe)? But I guess that is the million dollar question.

2) You got me. Can only speculate, ask Miura.

Just emailed him.....

3) If P then Q, however what makes you think that the Kushan Emperor rebelled against the God Hand? Ever consider that the Emperor is just acting out his part in the grand scheme of Idea? How else do you get the 'hawk of light' griffith to be welcomed as a Saviour unless you have some badass army of creepy foreigners to fight and 'win'?
In summation, to become apostle is to willingly become the pawn of Idea. It is highly unlikely that Guts would ever do that. Guts is the antithesis of Idea and the God Hand.

He (Emperor) may be a pawn of the Idea, but certainly not the God-Hand whom he's out to defy. I Was under impression that the Emperor was against the God-Hand, as his ambition was to become a God himself. And as far as I know Guts isn't all that familiar with the Idea concept (may gave been mentioned to him), and his quest towards vengeance is personal and has nothing to do with the Idea....at least at this point.

Although confronting and possibly eliminating the GH may be part of the Idea's master plan, what does that have anything to do with Gut's ambition? And how do we know evrything that has happened hasn't gone according to "God's" plan in the first place?

If Gut's found out he was fated to eliminate the GH, do you think he would back off simply to spite fate?

4) Femto corporal form is that of Griffith (perhaps with a bit of Casca/Guts mixed in thanks to fetus) but he is still very much Femto in the Astral Plane and above. He hasn't changed form yet, but does it really matter?

Just curious.

In reality, what does any of this matter?

If your suggesting that this discussion is irrelevant fine? But isn't that what the NEWB question forum is for?

[Aetherfukz]

Doubt anyone knows for sure at this point: But what the hell is the Skull Night then? If he's not an apostle, God Hand, Human, what else is there (in regards to the Berserk universe)? But I guess that is the million dollar question.

I think the Skull Knight is in some ways akin to Guts. The best guess of his true identity still is Emperor Gaiseric. And he got smote down by 4-5 "Angels" after all his debauchery in his kingdom. And somehow, at least part of him, survived. I don't think he's an apostle, because then the god hand surely would have some kind of power over him. I think he survived the smiting, which could have been an eclipse, who knows? Maybe one of his followers wanted to bring him down and used a behelit to become stronger than the emperor or somthing like that?

The only thing we know is that he, like Guts, is a traveler between the worlds.

[psi29a]

In reality, what does any of this matter?

If your suggesting that this discussion is irrelevant fine? But isn't that what the NEWB question forum is for?

You have just graduated from newb to notanewb.

Congradulations!

Not really sarcasm, most people have questions they want answered but no one other than Miura can really answer with any 'truthfullness' until the Manga is finished. We have been 'proven' wrong again and again thanks to Miura progressing the story, so there is really no point in creating dogma and dealing in 'what ifs'.

If you want to speculate, by all means... just remember that Berserk is nearly 20 years old... a lot of us are old farts. ^_^;;

[MrFelony]

that and we did already speculate what guts' apostle form would be . i think the general consensus was that it woudl be something close to the form of the armor he was wearing, sorta like SK, or that of his inner doggy demon.

[The Prince]

In reality, what does any of this matter?

If your suggesting that this discussion is irrelevant fine? But isn't that what the NEWB question forum is for?

You have just graduated from newb to notanewb.

Congradulations!

Not really sarcasm, most people have questions they want answered but no one other than Miura can really answer with any 'truthfullness' until the Manga is finished. We have been 'proven' wrong again and again thanks to Miura progressing the story, so there is really no point in creating dogma and dealing in 'what ifs'.

If you want to speculate, by all means... just remember that Berserk is nearly 20 years old... a lot of us are old farts. ^_^;;

Cheers mate.

[psi29a]

Cheers mate.

Welcome aboard.

[hbi2k]

My understanding was that the Skull Knight was once human (possibly Emperor Gaiseric, but who knows-- I've also heard it speculated that Gaiseric became Void, and SK was more like the Guts to Void's Griffith), and that his current skeletal state is the result of extended use of the Berserker armour. It stands to reason: in extreme need, the armour bolts itself directly to the user's skeleton to keep them fighting. Assuming that this process could continue indefinitely, the flesh may eventually just wear away from extreme use, leaving only an armoured, fighting skeleton.

[Aetherfukz]

I always imagined that the Skull Knight look was just another armor, not his "flesh".

But anyway, after rereading the first 20 volumes the last days, I stumbled upon a quote from Mozgus, where he tells about how Gaiseric the Conquerer tortured a man in his chamber, but the man still believed in god, and then 4 angels came swooping down, rescuing the man and supposedly killing Gaiseric.

I think that pretty much points to this: That man, his dream crushing down while tortured, activated a Behelit. The Godhand came and destroyed the Emperors town and everyone in it in the Eclipse. But somehow, like Guts, Gaiseric survived, and afterwards became the Skull Knight.

[hbi2k]

Entirely possible. It's also possible that some (or even most) of the details of the story may have become distorted with time and countless retellings. It also makes you wonder who survived to tell the tale (and pass it down to folks like Mozgus and Judeau), and how that person's perspective may have colored it. It seems unlikely that the Skull Knight, for example, would have identified the God Hand members as "angels" and used the story as a parable about the power of faith-- is that something that got added later, or was the story originally passed down by another survivor with a different perspective? Could it have perhaps been Void himself? (Or whichever apostle or God Hand member who was the one who activated the behelit at that time, although Void seems like the most likely candidate, as SK seems to have a grudge against him in particular.) And does that imply that, like Griffith, he at one point was reborn in the physical plane?

Or am I just reading too much into it? (-:

[MrFelony]

I was pretty sure that the armor guts is wearing now is SK's old berserker armor.

[Istvan]

Could it have perhaps been Void himself? (Or whichever apostle or God Hand member who was the one who activated the behelit at that time, although Void seems like the most likely candidate, as SK seems to have a grudge against him in particular.) And does that imply that, like Griffith, he at one point was reborn in the physical plane?

A lot of people feel that Gaiseric is probably SK, who was sacrificed by Void but somehow survived. This is pure speculation, we'll have to wait to find out for sure. On the other hand, it is almost certain that Void was never reborn in the human world. It seems to be implied that they were waiting for Griffith for that, and his rebirth is going to reform the world. Given the degree of change that seems likely to occur as the astral world combines with the physical, it seems unlikely that this has happened before. Nor have we heard any legends of other people like Griffith has become, and Miura seems to good not to have given at least a few hints ahead of time. Ancient legends that only appear when you need them, and are never mentioned before that, are usually the sign of a poor author, which Miura definately is not.

[The Prince]

Could it have perhaps been Void himself? (Or whichever apostle or God Hand member who was the one who activated the behelit at that time, although Void seems like the most likely candidate, as SK seems to have a grudge against him in particular.) And does that imply that, like Griffith, he at one point was reborn in the physical plane?

A lot of people feel that Gaiseric is probably SK, who was sacrificed by Void but somehow survived. This is pure speculation, we'll have to wait to find out for sure. On the other hand, it is almost certain that Void was never reborn in the human world. It seems to be implied that they were waiting for Griffith for that, and his rebirth is going to reform the world. Given the degree of change that seems likely to occur as the astral world combines with the physical, it seems unlikely that this has happened before. Nor have we heard any legends of other people like Griffith has become, and Miura seems to good not to have given at least a few hints ahead of time. Ancient legends that only appear when you need them, and are never mentioned before that, are usually the sign of a poor author, which Miura definately is not.

Exactly the Christian parallel to the story, if I am correct, is fashioned around the prophecy of the WhiteHawk returning as some messianic figure. So I believe the coming of the WhiteHawk would be a one time thing.

Although I am a little confused about the whole "Rebirth Eclipse Ceremony" occurring every 1000 years. This would suggest it happened before, so who was the figure this ceremony brough forth 1000 years earlier?

Also this brings up another point, if the GH-ascension ceremony really occurred only every 256 yrs or so, how would it be possible to already have 5 GH's, when Void (assumed to be the 1st) is believed to have ascended with the fall of Gaeserics Kingdom just 500 yrs prior?

Maybe I'm missing something...........

[Aetherfukz]

As far as I know Void, the oldest of the Godhand, was born around ~800 years ago, so there wouldn't have been anyone to be reborn ~1000 years ago.

[Deddo]

Berserk FTW of c first post to here, im not a Forum friendly person thou buuut

[Istvan]

Also this brings up another point, if the GH-ascension ceremony really occurred only every 256 yrs or so, how would it be possible to already have 5 GH's, when Void (assumed to be the 1st) is believed to have ascended with the fall of Gaeserics Kingdom just 500 yrs prior?

Where in the manga does it say when Gaeseric's kingdom fell? I don't remember that at all, so if you could give me the exact location, I'd appreciate it a lot.

[The Prince]

Also this brings up another point, if the GH-ascension ceremony really occurred only every 256 yrs or so, how would it be possible to already have 5 GH's, when Void (assumed to be the 1st) is believed to have ascended with the fall of Gaeserics Kingdom just 500 yrs prior?

Where in the manga does it say when Gaeseric's kingdom fell? I don't remember that at all, so if you could give me the exact location, I'd appreciate it a lot.

Was referring to the incident that led to what was buried beneath the tower of Rebirth.

Maybe "fall" was the wrong wording......Would "demise" have been better?

[Eldo]

Although I am a little confused about the whole "Rebirth Eclipse Ceremony" occurring every 1000 years. This would suggest it happened before, so who was the figure this ceremony brough forth 1000 years earlier?

Also this brings up another point, if the GH-ascension ceremony really occurred only every 256 yrs or so, how would it be possible to already have 5 GH's, when Void (assumed to be the 1st) is believed to have ascended with the fall of Gaeserics Kingdom just 500 yrs prior?

Maybe I'm missing something...........

I actually forgot where in the manga it said the rebirth eclipse thing happen every 1000 years, or that the God Hand ascension occurrs every 256 years, so you have to tell me where. You've aroused my curiousity, it's like an itch I can't scratch.

As for Gaiseric's kingdom, it was said to be approximately 1000 years ago, so there's no exact figure for that. Furthermore, we can't be sure that Void was the first, we only assume he is.

[The Prince]

Although I am a little confused about the whole "Rebirth Eclipse Ceremony" occurring every 1000 years. This would suggest it happened before, so who was the figure this ceremony brough forth 1000 years earlier?

Also this brings up another point, if the GH-ascension ceremony really occurred only every 256 yrs or so, how would it be possible to already have 5 GH's, when Void (assumed to be the 1st) is believed to have ascended with the fall of Gaeserics Kingdom just 500 yrs prior?

Maybe I'm missing something...........

I actually forgot where in the manga it said the rebirth eclipse thing happen every 1000 years, or that the God Hand ascension occurrs every 256 years, so you have to tell me where. You've aroused my curiousity, it's like an itch I can't scratch.

As for Gaiseric's kingdom, it was said to be approximately 1000 years ago, so there's no exact figure for that. Furthermore, we can't be sure that Void was the first, we only assume he is.

I'll have to look. Regarding the eclipse.....its 216 not 256 yrs. According to this........ http://skullknight.net/encyclopedia/glossary/index.html

You're right about Gaiseric's kingdom being 1000 yrs old....my bad.

In regards to the 1000 ceremony/eclipse associated with Griffith's rebirth at Albion in the tower where Guts fought Mozgus, I recall the SK talking to Guts about it when he goes off to look for Caska after she wandered off from Goto's. I'll go search for exactly where though for you.....

The occultation that occurs once in 1000 years. This ceremony allows the incarnation of a "being from heavenly spheres" to a fleshly body, and mirrors the events of the previous occultation. This occured recently in Albion where Femto was incarnated as Griffith, using the body of the Demon Child

http://skullknight.net/encyclopedia/glossary/index.html

[The Prince]

Also this brings up another point, if the GH-ascension ceremony really occurred only every 256 yrs or so, how would it be possible to already have 5 GH's, when Void (assumed to be the 1st) is believed to have ascended with the fall of Gaeserics Kingdom just 500 yrs prior?

Where in the manga does it say when Gaeseric's kingdom fell? I don't remember that at all, so if you could give me the exact location, I'd appreciate it a lot.

-Sorry my time periods were off.

*Eclipse for a new GH being every 216 yrs not 256yrs.

*And "collapse" of Gaeseric's kingdom (remnants at bottom of Tower of Rebirth) associated with appearance of the "Four Angels" (who were those guys?....Older generation Godhand?) being 1000 yrs....not 500 yrs. Therefore this would allow enough time for having 5 eclipses associated with 5 GH's within the timeline of the story.

*This was specifically addressed when Griffith's rescue party was descending the steps toward Griffith's jail cell. Volume 10, Festival's Eve (2)

Side Note:

Interesting is that this suggests some sort of reoccuring cycle every 1000 years. Paralleled by the established cojoining of kingdoms into an empire by some (masked in battle) legendary figure as with Gaeseric (Skull)....and likely the New Griffith (Hawk) will do in time.

Note when the origninal four angels came to destroy Gaeserics empire their were only 4 not 5. In the story only having 4, not 5, was emphasized.....Why?

[Khelegond]

Carefull with double posts. Edit your other one to add the stuff

[Eedze]

there might be another possibility. consider the eclipse an event. during the eclipse, there is a strong connection between the realm of the living and the realm of the dead (i might have named it wrong here). during this event, the demons can manifest in the realm of the living. that does not mean that every time there is an eclipse, there would be an human to ascand to the demon realm. I do even think that it only happend twice so far. the other Godhand members never been ascended from earth but created by the entity of God (fate, born from the dreams and needs of humans)

imagine every time there is an eclipse, someone should sacrefice so many people, it would leave traces in histery. then why are there no other storys about people ascending to the demon realm. also it would get really bussy in there.

i think the eclipse is an event to ascend and transform the fifth member of the godhand. consider it happend before 1000 years ago. and skullknight has everything to do with that. so there must have been a 5th godhand before too.

in this story, Gaiseric has a lot in common with grifith. Guts even notices it in the Tower of Rebirth:
no-one knows where he comes from. he is suddenly there with a powerfull army. conquering the whole world
also Gaiseric and Skullknight got a lot in common,
it might be possible for Gaiseric to be the 5th godhand, then the other Godhand members destroyed him and he became Skullknight
just some wild guesses