Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

[Libaax]

Yeah who said it was something else?

I had said they had revenge in common and that are many kinds of revenge

[Istvan]

Yeah who said it was something else?

I had said they had revenge in common and that are many kinds of revenge

No one, it's just normally when people talk about two things having elements in common, they're refering to more then just one element. I guess I was missunderstanding you.

[Libaax]

Ahaaa then its all good

[ryusenka]

hmmmmmmmmmm

From wikipedia

Puck is a mischievous pre-Christian nature spirit. The pagan trickster was reimagined in Old English puca (Christianized as "devil") as a kind of half-tamed woodland sprite, leading folk astray with echoes and lights in nighttime woodlands (like the Celtic/French "White Ladies", the Dames Blanches), or coming into the farmstead and souring milk in the churn.

In Ireland, "puck" is said to be sometimes used for "goat".

Since, if you "speak of the Devil" he will appear, Puck's euphemistic "disguised" name is "Robin Goodfellow" or "Hobgoblin," in which "Hob" may substitute for "Rob" or may simply refer to the "goblin of the hearth" or hob. The name Robin is Middle English in origin, deriving from Old French Robin, the pet form for the name Robert. After Meyerbeer's successful opera Robert le Diable (1831), neo-medievalists and occultists began to apply the name Robin Goodfellow to the Devil, with appropriately extravagant imagery. The earliest reference to "Robin Goodfellow" cited by the Oxford English Dictionary is from 1531.

If you had the knack, Puck might do minor housework for you, quick fine needlework or butter-churning, which could be undone in a moment by his knavish tricks if you fell out of favor with him. "Those that Hob-goblin call you, and sweet Puck, / You do their work, and they shall have good luck" said one of William Shakespeare's fairies. Shakespeare's characterization of "shrewd and knavish" Puck in A Midsummer Night's Dream may have revived flagging interest in Puck.

[Yama]

I have two points to add.

The first is that I don't believe that Griffith being the "white general" has to do with any reference in historical context, it's a lot easier to believe that it has to do with the symbolism of white vs black.

Secondly, I believe that the God hand is really the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse , to be honest I couldn't give you which is which, but I think that the four before Griffith joining them is a very important thing to consider. To add to that, Griffith becoming Femto was the fifth sign of the apocalypse, remember? So I believe that he's actually supposed to symbolize the Anti-Christ. He also takes the spot of the pointer finger on the God's hand. Obviously making him the leader of the group, because you know... he points, they follow.

Continuing that that though further though gets a bit weird, because that basically means that if Gutts does kill the anti-Christ, he's Jesus reborn? I just don't see that. So it's not complete comparison.

I also believe that it's important to remember during this discussion that this time period he's creating is dealing with a lot of monotheistic religions compared to the polytheistic religion butting heads at the time. So this is where a lot of the symbols will get kind of muddled.


I guess that's all I have to say.

[nightofchaos]

I have two points to add.

The first is that I don't believe that Griffith being the "white general" has to do with any reference in historical context, it's a lot easier to believe that it has to do with the symbolism of white vs black.

Secondly, I believe that the God hand is really the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse , to be honest I couldn't give you which is which, but I think that the four before Griffith joining them is a very important thing to consider. To add to that, Griffith becoming Femto was the fifth sign of the apocalypse, remember? So I believe that he's actually supposed to symbolize the Anti-Christ. He also takes the spot of the pointer finger on the God's hand. Obviously making him the leader of the group, because you know... he points, they follow.

Continuing that that though further though gets a bit weird, because that basically means that if Gutts does kill the anti-Christ, he's Jesus reborn? I just don't see that. So it's not complete comparison.

I also believe that it's important to remember during this discussion that this time period he's creating is dealing with a lot of monotheistic religions compared to the polytheistic religion butting heads at the time. So this is where a lot of the symbols will get kind of muddled.


I guess that's all I have to say.

Yes there's a lot of similarities, but it is not the same. We must always remember that even though something may look like it, may feel like it, may even seem to cause the same reaction it is not necessarily what it appears to be. That does not mean it is necessarily evil, and even pure evil still has a role to play in this world or it'd be gone by now.

The idea of the apocalypse and the four horsemen, appears time and again, naruto the fourth hokage... then comes naruto. Ergo Proxy, and Proxy One, they were the guardians of the creation, but if you see the anime you begin to realize it's similar. Even in the transformer the last guardian was the one that seemingly went against all the others, the Omega Supreme... similar in name at least to the Omega point concept by Tipler. Raven, the spirit of some american indians. I've been reading comics, Thanos, Apocalypse, Xman, and DC comics too. Spawn too, and some other image comics, there's a lot of connections. Too many symbolic connections for me to express in few words, but enough to cause me to question what they all mean, that is if they mean anything at all.

[GriffithIsMoe]

hmmmmmmmmmm

From wikipedia

Puck is a mischievous pre-Christian nature spirit. The pagan trickster was reimagined in Old English puca (Christianized as "devil") as a kind of half-tamed woodland sprite, leading folk astray with echoes and lights in nighttime woodlands (like the Celtic/French "White Ladies", the Dames Blanches), or coming into the farmstead and souring milk in the churn.

In Ireland, "puck" is said to be sometimes used for "goat".

Since, if you "speak of the Devil" he will appear, Puck's euphemistic "disguised" name is "Robin Goodfellow" or "Hobgoblin," in which "Hob" may substitute for "Rob" or may simply refer to the "goblin of the hearth" or hob. The name Robin is Middle English in origin, deriving from Old French Robin, the pet form for the name Robert. After Meyerbeer's successful opera Robert le Diable (1831), neo-medievalists and occultists began to apply the name Robin Goodfellow to the Devil, with appropriately extravagant imagery. The earliest reference to "Robin Goodfellow" cited by the Oxford English Dictionary is from 1531.

If you had the knack, Puck might do minor housework for you, quick fine needlework or butter-churning, which could be undone in a moment by his knavish tricks if you fell out of favor with him. "Those that Hob-goblin call you, and sweet Puck, / You do their work, and they shall have good luck" said one of William Shakespeare's fairies. Shakespeare's characterization of "shrewd and knavish" Puck in A Midsummer Night's Dream may have revived flagging interest in Puck.

Interesting read. I know some people don't like Puck but I think he adds needed levity to the series.

But why does he have such a nice ass?

[Stilgar]

Slan, the female member of the God Hand. A temptress who appears to have a "fascination" with Guts. Her name is inspired from A. E. van Vogt's Slan.

Has this been officially confirmed as the source of the name? I was looking at some Warhammer stuff and wondered if it was a derivation from "Slaanesh".

In the fictional universes of Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Fantasy, Slaanesh is one of the four major Chaos gods. Slaanesh is depicted, in both Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Fantasy as the youngest of the four major gods. Like his brother gods, Slaanesh grew from a single survivalist emotion: in his case, the emotion was pleasure. He is the god of excess, hedonism, pride, aestheticism and self indulgence; he is also known as the Dark Prince or the Prince of Excess.

Slaanesh is described as taking many forms, be they female or male, even hermaphroditic or androgynous. In any case, he is always unnaturally beautiful, and irresistible to mortals who view him. Slaanesh is generally regarded as being male, with the notable exception that the Eldar race of Warhammer 40,000 refers to Slaanesh as a female, normally referring to "her" as She Who Thirsts or the Great Enemy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaanesh

Any thoughts?

[psi29a]

How old is Warhammer 40K ?

All of the resources I can locate are these:

* Thorpe, Gavin; Priestley, Rick; Reynolds, Anthony and Cavatore, Alessio (2002). Warhammer Armies: Hordes of Chaos. Nottingham: Games Workshop. ISBN 1-84154-222-9.
* Thornton, Jake; and McQuirk, Space (2001). Warhammer Armies: High Elves, 2nd Edition, Nottingham: Games Workshop. ISBN 1-84154-175-3.
* Chambers, Andy; Haines, Pete; Hoare, Andy; Kelly, Phil, and McNeill, Graham (2002). Warhammer 40,000 Codex: Chaos Space Marines, 2nd Edition, Nottingham: Games Workshop. ISBN 1-84154-322-5.
* Priestley, Rick (1994). Warhammer 40,000 Codex: Eldar, 2nd Edition, Nottingham: Games Workshop. ISBN 1-872372-74-0.

So it would indicate that 40K came after Berserk which started in 89.

Upon digging deeper there is this:

The major expansions for Rogue Trader were the book Chapter Approved which gave army lists for the Space Marines and Eldar among others and the two-volume Realms of Chaos (1988 and 1990) which introduced the Horus Heresy and the Chaotic powers. Also the Imperial Guard were added during this period (although then called the Imperial Army).

So while it was 1987 for the first 40K book, the expansion that included Eldar came out in 1990, a year after Berserk did however there could be a common theme behind such as Vonnegut's work.

Right now it seems unlikely that Miura knows anything about 40K, let alone play/read it when it first came out. Until we can verify when the first mention of the Eldar god in 40k's book it is still speculation at best.

[Hiroaka]

Hi Guys!
hmm.. i'm a brazilian a guy and my english is ver poor :p so...

Nosferatu it's an old geman who sold his soul for Evil (6)(6)(6) to reach the imortality.

One of Zodd's names he earned by having survived so many battles. Nosferatu means "Immortal."

Até mais meus Queridos!
Em Bom Português ;D

[lon3vvolf]

I actually play warhammer fantsy. (Yes... insert your nerd comments here) Its been around since 83 but has gone through some drastic changes.

[Istvan]

One of Zodd's names he earned by having survived so many battles. Nosferatu means "Immortal."

Yep. Which is also why it is often used as one of the names for vampires. I'm pretty sure that the word has connotations of not just "Immortal", but an evil, dark, or inhuman immortal, which would fit in perfectly with Zodd, of course.

[psi29a]

One of Zodd's names he earned by having survived so many battles. Nosferatu means "Immortal."

Yep. Which is also why it is often used as one of the names for vampires. I'm pretty sure that the word has connotations of not just "Immortal", but an evil, dark, or inhuman immortal, which would fit in perfectly with Zodd, of course.

The word itself does not mean "the undead" or "vampire", as is popularly thought. Theories regarding its etymology link it either to the Greek nosophoros (νοσοφορος; "plague-carrier"), or the Romanian nesuferitul ("the insufferable one").

So speakith the wikipedia.

[Istvan]

The word itself does not mean "the undead" or "vampire", as is popularly thought. Theories regarding its etymology link it either to the Greek nosophoros (νοσοφορος; "plague-carrier"), or the Romanian nesuferitul ("the insufferable one").

So speakith the wikipedia.

I know, and I didn't mean to imply that it did actually mean anything like vampire or undead, simply that it was often used to refer to vampires, because of its actual meaning.

[LaNcom]

Has someone tried looking for a person named Götts?

I think you mean Gottfried von Berlichingen zu Hornberg, aka "Götz with the iron hand", a German knight (1480 - 1562). He lost his right arm during a siege in 1505, and got a replacement made of iron. This arm had a special mechanism to firmly close the hand, so that he was still able to wield a sword. He didn't lose an eye, though. Here's an image of this arm:




@Veageus:

Nosferatu is actually a special kind of vampire living in Romania, according to the book "The Land beyond the Forest. Facts and Fancies from Transylvania" by Emily Gerard (1888). The name "Nosferatu" is a variation of "Nosphoros", a monster from ancient Greek folklore, which losely translates to "plaguebearer".

[VisCar]

As previously said many times (be symbolism or not), Berserk has propably the least Japanese religious aspects I've seen so far. The whole series is "branded" with a medieval darkness and myth greatly associated to the western religion. The cruel drawing style and seemly overboard going rape-scenes (I love 'em though) etc. also indicate that Berserk is trying to be something else.
Symbolism Being the subject, it's clear that Griffith is being marked as a Christ-character, turned to be an antichrist at the end of the anime and at the beginning of the manga. Our religion being rewritten.

[Death&Rebirth]

Our religion being rewritten.

Speak for yourself...

[Hyuri]

Ok, so I haven't been the most contributing member, thought I might change that (a little bit anyways).

In one of the early Berserk Volumes (sorry I can't quite remember the number, think it was Vol. 11 or Vol. 12), before Griffith was rescued, we see him tortured and deformed, lying on the ground before some spirits appear before him asking for an audience. From the crack in the cell-wall from which they came, we see four members of the God Hand calling to Griffith. The scene depicted was most likely taken from M.C. Escher's woodcut print "Another World". M.C. Escher was a dutch artist, famous for the concepts behind his works (infinity, perception, and many other's), as well as for his impossible contructions and optical illusions.
Here are two pics so we can compare (the second one is "Another World"):

[RanShi]

The last post was impressive and cool =)

As of Zodd, I may have an explanation, although it's a farfetched one.

Zod kinda made me think of the word zodiac.

And i found this..

"The term zodiac denotes an annual cycle of twelve stations along the ecliptic, the apparent path of the sun across the heavens through the constellations that divide the ecliptic into twelve equal zones of celestial longitude. The zodiac is the first known celestial coordinate system. There are two apparently independently created zodiacs. Babylonian astrology, inherited by Hellenistic and Indian astrology, developed the zodiac of twelve signs familiar in the West. In Chinese astrology, months and years pass through a cycle of twelve animals that imply certain fortunes or misfortunes related to events occurring within those signs. The Chinese zodiac is not linked to constellations, however.

The etymology of the term zodiac comes from the Latin zodiacus, from the Greek ζῳδιακός [κύκλος], meaning "[circle] of animals", derived from ζῴδιον, the diminutive of ζῷον "animal". However, the classical Greek zodiac also includes signs (also constellations) that are not represented by animals (e.g., Libra, Virgo, Gemini). Another suggested etymology is that the Greek term is cognate with the Sanskrit sodi, denoting "a path", i.e., the path through which the Sun travels."

So Zod could stand for just "animal". Nosferatu = Undying, Zodd = Animal, Beast.

Kinda makes sense to me.

[Hyuri]

The first time I saw one of Lord Mozgus henchmen (the guy with the bird mask) I thought I had seen his costume somewhere before. It was only resently that I got so obsessed that I took it upon myself ( ) to find what I could not clearly recall. I´m happy to say I found what I was looking for. Thank you Wikipedia.

During the period of the Black Death and the Great Plague of London, plague doctors visited victims of the plague to verify whether they had been afflicted or not, take their pay, and leave. Most were unqualified to do even this, as the qualified doctors fled, knowing they could do nothing for those affected by the plague. Their outfit consisted of a hat to show that the man was a doctor, a mask to protect the face which included crystal eyes to protect the wearer's eyes and the beak which was stuffed with spices or herbs to purify the air that the doctor breathed, a wooden stick to push away victims who would get too close to him, a pair of leather gloves to protect the hands, a gown waxed from the exterior, and full length boots. It was believed at the time that the plague was spread only through the air and not through the flea bites of the fleas living on the black rat. This was why the doctors stuffed herbs and spices in their masks or carried them somewhere on their person. The waxed clothing may have helped prevent fleas latching on and even prevented respitory droplet infection. This outfit might not have been worn often, as most of the doctors fled at the earliest signs of plague.

Here´s two pics:


Might I add that the wooden stick the doctors used seems to have been replaced with a weapon in the manga.

[MrFelony]

thats a pretty cool connection you found Hyura. that'd be a really creepy sight to see coming to town

[Starnum]

Ah yeah, very nice find indeed.

[Hyuri]

Ah, I´m glad you liked it . Took me a while to find it, since I only had the image in my head to work with. I´ve also noticed other symbolisms in early aswell as latter chapters. Maybe I´ll post I list some time in the future, but before that, I would like to read the manga again. Get my ideas and sources straight.

[FightClub]

Stick actually looks like a sword, check his right hand, it looks like its sitting just below a crossguard.

[Buuhan1]

I've had seen tho two Hyuri posted before some months ago here: http://www.berserkchronicles.com/englis ... rces01.htm do you work for that site, or did your research happen to bring forth the same results?