Berserk: 286 - "All Aboard"

[Starnum]

Yeah, I really can’t see Casca trying to go to Griffith. However, if she did, I imagine Griffith could protect her, as he’s not only a member of the Godhand, but he’s the presi…*cough* I mean Overlord of the God hand as well.

We even saw Zodd command lesser apostles to back off of Gatts, because of their deal at Vritanis. Griffith has far more authority over them. Beside, if they tried to fuck around, he’d just kill them.

[Khelegond]

Just a comment about them 'surviving' and 'not being sacrificed'. They're alive, but they still have the brand. They still attract demons, so, in a sense, they're haven't been sacrificed yet.

[hbi2k]

I don't actually think that the mere intention is enough, the actual sacrificing part is important too. If you look, during the eclipse we see several scenes of Griffith's body apparently being shaped/transformed by the spirits of the Hawks who are dying. My guess is just that he had so many sacrifices, it simply doesn't matter if a couple of them happen to survive. I note also, his transformation apparently completed itself before Guts and Caska died, lending credence to this theory.

I'll have to go back and reread that part-- it's been a while.

[EnglishJim]

I don't actually think that the mere intention is enough, the actual sacrificing part is important too. If you look, during the eclipse we see several scenes of Griffith's body apparently being shaped/transformed by the spirits of the Hawks who are dying. My guess is just that he had so many sacrifices, it simply doesn't matter if a couple of them happen to survive. I note also, his transformation apparently completed itself before Guts and Caska died, lending credence to this theory.

Yea, just the intention is not enough, the actual sacrifices matter. There's also the case of Wyald; with his death we see dozens of souls pour out of his body before they're pulled back into the vortex, leaving nothing but a corpse of Wyald's original human self. The souls of the sacrificed is the source of the apostle's power, or so I always thought.

Now, a preview:



If you'd any doubt in the previous chapter there should be none here - Caska's definitely focused on something... fingers crossed it's Elfhelm.

[Starnum]

Yeah, there was no doubt in my mind. I'm guessing she either sees land, another ship, or some kind of sea monster.

[thesyndrome]

god i hope its elfhelm...

[Starnum]

Don't we all?

[Wandering_Mystic]

The chapter title translates to "bubbles" or "foam".
Interstingly, it is also used in the japanese expression that is equivalent to the english phrase "to go up in smoke", but since the whole expression was not used in the title, I'm going with bubbles or sea foam for now until I read the chapter and figure out what the intended meaning was from the content

[Istvan]

We even saw Zodd command lesser apostles to back off of Gatts, because of their deal at Vritanis. Griffith has far more authority over them. Beside, if they tried to fuck around, he’d just kill them.

Sure, but Zodd isn't the one who branded them. As I understand it, the brand marks them as prey for all the evil nasty stuff, but nothing requires the Apostles to kill them, they choose to, because they like it. Griffith, on the other hand, is the one who marked them, and to protect them from being sacrifices would go directly against that, and thus the choice that allowed him to become God's Hand. I'm just dubious that he can do that.

Mind you, it's almost certainly accademic anyway, since I can't see Casksa wanting to join him, or him having any reason to protect her, as has been mentioned elsewhere by others.

[Starnum]

I can definitely understand where you're coming from, but I wouldn't be surprised, if at this point, Griffith can do pretty much whatever the hell he likes. Heh, who knows though. *shrugs*

[|||||||]

By the way, I was always wondering if there is some sort of imperfection in Griffith's "almighty powers" since Casca and Guts are not actually dead. Its not like there are scientific facts about sacrifices in berserk so it might also mean nothing, but to me it feels like it'll be the thing making Griffith defeatable. Perhaps its the only way to get rid of the brand, since the "souls" escaped the body of killed they might return to them sacrificed who are still alive and remove the Brand.

Greetings from far far away

[thesyndrome]

in volume 3 (when we first meet the godhand) they state that something of value must be sacrificed to signify that the person has chosen to give up their humanity - if it were simply that the sacrifices were used to "power" the apostle, then anything with a soul could be sacrificed; besides, if this were the case then some apostles would be WAY more powerful than others because they had more to sacrifice

then again slan does mention that the band of the hawk are fuelling griffith when sacrificed, but this could be metaphorical; i guess we will never really know.
if guts fought griff now, i'm not sure how it would turn out...i mean he has new weapons, his DS is now enchanted will demon souls (or something to that effect), and he has the berserker armour...hmm...what do you guys think?

also, while we are talking about sacrifices i would like to hear what people think is going on in volume 10 when the others go to rescue griffith; caska drops her torch and it falls to the bottom to reveal a bunch of skeletons, ALL with brands on their foreheads. this has been bugging me for a while, because it was put in so close to the mentioning of the skull knight as emperor whathisname...and also why are all the brands on their foreheads? with the hawks their brands were all on different areas of the body...and why were there any skeletons at all? surely the apostles ate the sacrifices...and why are they at the bottom of that tower? has no one in the kingdom gone down there in an expedition yet? and it looks like a great building/city/civilisation has crumbled at the bottom (architecture looks greek?)?
so many unanswered questions....

[Brainpiercing]

I don't think the sacrifice actually fuels the demon powers. The entire idea of the sacrifice is clearly an analogy to human ambition in our very own very real world. Ambition usually means sacrifice, Miura just chose a slightly more dramatic way of expressing it.

[Istvan]

I don't think the sacrifice actually fuels the demon powers. The entire idea of the sacrifice is clearly an analogy to human ambition in our very own very real world. Ambition usually means sacrifice, Miura just chose a slightly more dramatic way of expressing it.

I don't think it fuels their power as such, but I do think it's crucial to the transformation process to become an Apostle/God's Hand. Which would also entirely fit in with the analogy you mention.

in volume 3 (when we first meet the godhand) they state that something of value must be sacrificed to signify that the person has chosen to give up their humanity - if it were simply that the sacrifices were used to "power" the apostle, then anything with a soul could be sacrificed; besides, if this were the case then some apostles would be WAY more powerful than others because they had more to sacrifice

Same as above, if it wasn't something precious, it might not be suitable for the transformation effect that it produces. Especially since at least part of the transformation seems to involve burning away the "good" portions of the person.

[War Machine]

What puzzles me is that, if the sacrifices are necessary for the transformation, why doesn't Griffith go out of his way to kill Guts and Caska?

The only reason I can think for Griffith is that maybe there's something more to the sacrifices, and the fact that it isn't complete gives him some sort of advantage (like preserving a human look), either that or their death is purely symbolic.

[42ndEndOfTheWorld]

Normally I would side with Istvan on this issue, but there's something else that no one seems to remember: Post-eclipse Griffith once saved Casca's life (hill of swords scene). So it seems that either he can really do anything he wants or some sacrifices have some other functions to perform (besides being eaten by apostles, that is), like Casca giving birth to demon child, which would, however mean that they are still guided by fate (there goes my chaos theory). We'll see.

[hbi2k]

Perhaps any soul COULD be used to "power" the transformation, and the Godhand simply insist on the sacrifices being important to the prospective Apostle because that's just the kind of jerks they are? That could also explain why Guts and Caska's survival doesn't seem to impair Griffith's demonic powers in any way; their deaths weren't strictly necessary for his transformation-- there were more than enough sacrifices among the rest of the Hawks for that-- but the Godhand weren't about to let Griff pick and choose who gets sacrificed and who doesn't (since that would defeat the purpose of making him sacrifice those most important to him) which is why they got branded in the first place.

Just a random thought off the top of my head.

[stonecold]

I believe in one of the early volumes, probably 1 or 2 or is that only in the anime, where Gatts was still alone and hunting down apostles. In one night the other 4 god hands taunt him, after he killed some misc ghosts, undeads drawn to him by the brand, something about all his anger, fear, pain belongs to them through the brand. Just thinking, is Gatts and Caska still feeding Griffith through the brand no matter how small that amount is?

[Khelegond]

I think you're missing the point

Being sacrificed != being eaten by an apostle.

Being sacrificed = have your soul condemned to hell and your life is given to the demons. You're branded as sacrifice. If was just for eating at the eclipse, why brand them at all?

Griffith saved her, but that was instinct - maybe his 'body' did that. He simply doesn't care if they're killed now or later - their destiny is still the same, the abyss. So, why would he care? They're sacrifices, and will die as such.

...unless they somewhat remove the brand

[Eldo]

I have thought about rather or not the number of sacrifices dictate how strong an apostle is. But then I thought, this couldn't be proven at all. Pirkaf Roshinu (or whatever her name was) sacrificed her parents, while the Count sacrificed his wife. By logic, the Pirkaf should have been much more powerful than the count, but this is not apparent in the manga. It could be argued that how much the apostle cared about sacrifice(s) is the determinant of the power level, but this isn't apparently either nor is there any proof to this theory. It could be the Behelit itself that is the sole determinant of the apostle's power level, which means that this is all dicatated by fate. I think this is the most likely scenario.

Whether or not sacrifices are used to power the transformation is debatable, but one thing is for sure; in order to become an apostle, one must make sacrifice the people/person they care about and become detached from humanity. Perhaps that's what needed to become demonic, abandoning human nature. One interesting fact is: it has been suggested that the souls of those who are involved with demons, either sacrifices or dead apostles, are flowing through and sucked in by the Vortex. Right now, I don't have any theories to what this would mean though.

[Istvan]

Normally I would side with Istvan on this issue, but there's something else that no one seems to remember: Post-eclipse Griffith once saved Casca's life (hill of swords scene).

Good catch, I'd forgotten that. So I suppose he can protect her, at least in the short term, although as Khelegond points out the ultimate fate of the branded is still to be sucked into hell (and I really doubt that Griffith could stop that). Of course, this still leaves the question of why he'd bother to protect her or allow her to enter his army (he probably wouldn't) or why she'd join (she almost certainly wouldn't), so it's still mostly academic.

[42ndEndOfTheWorld]

Normally I would side with Istvan on this issue, but there's something else that no one seems to remember: Post-eclipse Griffith once saved Casca's life (hill of swords scene).

Good catch, I'd forgotten that. So I suppose he can protect her, at least in the short term, although as Khelegond points out the ultimate fate of the branded is still to be sucked into hell (and I really doubt that Griffith could stop that). Of course, this still leaves the question of why he'd bother to protect her or allow her to enter his army (he probably wouldn't) or why she'd join (she almost certainly wouldn't), so it's still mostly academic.

Although, it could be argued that Griffith was under influence of a child whose body he had taken. So maybe Griffith was not under control of his body at all when he saved Casca, and the whole thing was willed by that child? That would be very interesting, not only as an academic discussion, but it could also be a clue to a possible way to slain Griffith: if that child can still temporally take control of his body, he is vulnerable.

[hbi2k]

I have thought about rather or not the number of sacrifices dictate how strong an apostle is. But then I thought, this couldn't be proven at all. Pirkaf Roshinu (or whatever her name was) sacrificed her parents, while the Count sacrificed his wife. By logic, the Pirkaf should have been much more powerful than the count, but this is not apparent in the manga. It could be argued that how much the apostle cared about sacrifice(s) is the determinant of the power level, but this isn't apparently either nor is there any proof to this theory. It could be the Behelit itself that is the sole determinant of the apostle's power level, which means that this is all dicatated by fate. I think this is the most likely scenario.

My theory is that an apostle's power is determined, at least in part, by the strength of their desire for whatever dream or wish the Godhand offers in exchange for the sacrifice. Griffith is remarkably single-minded in his desire, so he is granted power orders of magnitude greater than your garden-variety apostle (like a Wyald, say, whose only dream seems to be a rather vague and nebulous wish to be the strongest raping, plundering bully in the schoolyard). Presumably the Kushan emperor's dream must have been nearly as strong, explaining both why he is so much more powerful than the other apostles and why he resists Griffith's authority so fervently.

[Khelegond]

I think it's a combination of the power of his behelit (there must be some prettty ordinary behelits, and the ones like the King's Egg) and the power of the soon-to-be apostle. Griffith was extremely inteligent, smart, and excelent swordsman. Roshinu was pretty agile, the Count was strong, and so.

[thesyndrome]

Griffith was extremely inteligent, smart, and excelent swordsman. Roshinu was pretty agile, the Count was strong, and so.

griffith: yes
count: yeah...i guess (i dont remember him being especially strong?)
roshinu: what? when was she ever agile as a human? all she ever got was a good smacking every so often, usually following her love for fairy tales

i think the power of the apostle is defined by their will, and just how much they want to achieve their dreams; griffith proved on numerous occasions that he was willing to do ANYTHING to realise his dream, roshinu wanted for elves to be real and to escape from her horrible life. the count...well...i guess he wanted to abandon his humanity, because he couldnt cope with his wives betrayal, and felt so weak and useless against her (i still remember that horrible smirk she had when he couldnt bring himself to kill her)